Any real consequences for the IPT?

[jimmyg]

I know that some people will say that this kind of speculation is premature, others will say that, unless you play in the IPT, it's not your business. I disagree. It's not premature, it's current and it's real. And it's important to the entire pool community including the fans, without which there would be no future hope for pool. So, let's please put those responses on hold.

What is important is what happens to the IPT after this entire episode resolves itself and what is left for the future of the IPT.

I know that if the IPT was a public company, their stock price would have tumbled and their bonds would be classified as "junk" by now. Investors would have fled and their entire future operation would be in serious question. Bankruptcy would be a very strong possibility. But the IPT is not a public company.

If the IPT was retail operation, it would be closed down by now. Employees would have quit, vendors would have stopped shipping and customers would only be looking for a closeout "fire sale". But again, the IPT is not a retail store.

If the IPT was a marriage, after the many lies and deceit there probably would be a divorce in it's near future, Certainly a very short and dim future.

But the IPT is a "professional pool players tour" and I can see that there is a totally different set of rules here. It's funny, professional pool players have a reputation for being some of the most street savvy people around, but somehow many choose to accept abuse, and refuse to acknowledge that they are walking down a one way street, the wrong way. Especially when the you realize the fact that only a handful of the very top players really have a chance of cashing in on that elusive big purse.

So my real questions are: Even if the IPT finally pays what it owes to the player's, what is the future of the IPT? Do the existing players continue to trust and support the IPT? Do the new players continue to enter $2,000 qualifiers trying to get a tour card? What will the perceived value of the tour card be? Do the fans support or boycott future tournaments?
Do pool rooms continue to purchase IPT equiptment and host qualifiers with, maybe two or three entrants? Does the IPT believe that they can do whatever they want and the players will simply go along? Do the players form a player's union to try and protect themselves?

Or are these memories very short lived and the professional pool players simply accept this type of treatment as part of the sport and nothing at all changes? This is also a very likely, unfortunate, possibly?

 

[SlimShafty]

I know that if the IPT was a public company, their stock price would have tumbled and their bonds would be classified as "junk" by now. Investors would have fled and their entire future operation would be in serious question. Bankruptcy would be a very strong possibility. But the IPT is not a public company.

Not true, tons of "public companies" and private startups such as the IPT have serious problems much worse then being late by month one prize distribution. I know friends of mine that have been employed by companies that have missed payroll or even cut supposed guaranteed benefits, the stock barely budged, and investors don't just bail on one missed payroll, most expect to have bumps in the road, they just pay closer attention as the players should.

If the IPT was retail operation, it would be closed down by now. Employees would have quit, vendors would have stopped shipping and customers would only be looking for a closeout "fire sale". But again, the IPT is not a retail store.

Intuit (Maker of Quicken, turbotax etc.) missed payroll for 4 months! sure some people quit because they just couldn't make it that long, but those that stayed made out well, the company turned it around.

I have had vendors continue to ship products even when accounts are in the rears, it happens often, and each situation is different. Of course at some point things will break down, and if the IPT has another missed payment, then schools out.

There are story after story of missed payroll, broken promises, and a whole lot worse, and not in every case did investors flee or company fail. And certainly not on the first kink in the armor, and of course these companies come up with all kinds of excuses as to why, and never want to admit the truth, so don't think that's just KT, that's business spin.

If the IPT was a marriage, after the many lies and deceit there probably would be a divorce in it's near future, Certainly a very short and dim future.

That's true

But the IPT is a "professional pool players tour" and I can see that there is a totally different set of rules here. It's funny, professional pool players have a reputation for being some of the most street savvy people around, but somehow many choose to accept abuse, and refuse to acknowledge that they are walking down a one way street, the wrong way. Especially when the you realize the fact that only a handful of the very top players really have a chance of cashing in on that elusive big purse.

If you think this is abuse, you have not seen a union meeting, or how horrible some major corporations handle things, just ask workers at Boeing how their benefits & health care packages are (they got cut) while the new CEO is living large, or talk to the airline pilots, or hundreds of thousands of workers fired with little if any excuse other than the stock price needs boosting.

So my real questions are: Even if the IPT finally pays what it owes to the player's, what is the future of the IPT? Do the existing players continue to trust and support the IPT? Do the new players continue to enter $2,000 qualifiers trying to get a tour card? What will the perceived value of the tour card be? Do the fans support or boycott future tournaments?
Do pool rooms continue to purchase IPT equiptment and host qualifiers with, maybe two or three entrants? Does the IPT believe that they can do whatever they want and the players will simply go along? Do the players form a player's union to try and protect themselves?

Or are these memories very short lived and the professional pool players simply accept this type of treatment as part of the sport and nothing at all changes? This is also a very likely, unfortunate, possibly?

In any risky startup there are questions, and no guarantee of success or payout. Many pool fans and hard core players are strange, to be honest I know way to many pool players that would just assume have all the bangers leave their room, but then they wonder why the room closes. I'm sure many would just assume pool stay in the back room and out of the spotlight, they love rubbing shoulders with pros, and if the IPT is truly successful that will end at some point.

I've been in favor of the players uniting for some time, it's a big reason the BCA went in the wrong direcction, the players never really had any control.

 

[Blackjack]

I know that some people will say that this kind of speculation is premature, others will say that, unless you play in the IPT, it's not your business. I disagree. It's not premature, it's current and it's real. And it's important to the entire pool community including the fans, without which there would be no future hope for pool. So, let's please put those responses on hold.

What is important is what happens to the IPT after this entire episode resolves itself and what is left for the future of the IPT.

I will respnd to you as someone that cares deeply about the future of the game. May I first point out that all of the points I make are merely speculative from someone that does not have communication with anyone in IPT management. That is by their choice, not my lack of trying to communicate with them.

I know that if the IPT was a public company, their stock price would have tumbled and their bonds would be classified as "junk" by now. Investors would have fled and their entire future operation would be in serious question. Bankruptcy would be a very strong possibility. But the IPT is not a public company.

Not really. Bankruptcy is definitely not in their future if the reports of a proposed sale are in the works. It now becomes a question to those of us looking at this closely, "Is the proposed deal with Ho Interactive a sale or a bail out? Who knows at this point. I don't think Kevin would back himself into a corner and promise money that he did not intend to pay. I think the money will be paid eventually and the rhetoric in this forum will be the only lasting remnants concerning this situation.

If the IPT was retail operation, it would be closed down by now. Employees would have quit, vendors would have stopped shipping and customers would only be looking for a closeout "fire sale". But again, the IPT is not a retail store.

I disagree. Look at WalMart. They are infamous for having pay issues with their employees, yet they still lead their industry worldwide despite the bad press and lawsuits. The IPT has hit a snag and their is a flaw in their initial concept of "we don't need your help, we have lots of money so go F yourself if you've been in the industry before we came along and not done half of what we've done". That attitude works if you have proper guidance and a keen staff that understands their market and clientele base. They don't understand. They believe that because the players are making all of this money that the excitement of big money will attract people to the sport. Their merchandies and other licensing has not even gotten off the ground yet. I believe that is because they intended to start that in 2007, not 2006. Whatever the case, they could have marketed the players much better than they have so far.

If the IPT was a marriage, after the many lies and deceit there probably would be a divorce in it's near future, Certainly a very short and dim future.

Maybe, but not likely. Don't forget that if Mr. Ho purchases the IPT that drastic changes could be in store for this tour's future. The speculation that the WPA has shut down communication with the IPT is not true. I'm sure that if Mr. Ho's staff is willing to listen and appreciate the experience of people that have marjeted the sport worldwide, that an workable cooperative deal could be reached to make the IPT and the entire sport bigger than anyone could have imagined. Standing off against each other has gotten the sport exactly where it was before KT came along, and he came in and made the same error in judgment that has kept us at a standstill for years. Hopefully he reconsiders that decision and realizes that such an agreement would help the players much more than his money could.

But the IPT is a "professional pool players tour" and I can see that there is a totally different set of rules here. It's funny, professional pool players have a reputation for being some of the most street savvy people around, but somehow many choose to accept abuse, and refuse to acknowledge that they are walking down a one way street, the wrong way. Especially when the you realize the fact that only a handful of the very top players really have a chance of cashing in on that elusive big purse.

If you don't learn from your past mistakes, then you are doomed to repeat them. The players are not "accepting abuse". Prior to the IPT there was NO MONEY. The players view this as their only chance to settle past debts, and provide for their future. Did they find a meal, or did they find a hook attached to the bait? Only time will tell after this thing plays itself out.

So my real questions are:

Even if the IPT finally pays what it owes to the player's, what is the future of the IPT?

Hopefully, for the sake of the players, they take measures to correct these problems and move forward.

Do the existing players continue to trust and support the IPT?

If they get paid, I don't see why not. If they don't get paid, that's another issue. IMO, they entered into this without a lifevest, so if it doesn't have a happy ending there is noone to blame but themselves.

Do the new players continue to enter $2,000 qualifiers trying to get a tour card?

I hope not. I hope that the dismal turnouts alert them to the fact that players and backers are unhappy with that. I think that this is more of a situation where the backers have refused to put up the money. Who can blame them? Until the entry for the qualifiers is within range for the players, the qualifiers will not be well supported.

What will the perceived value of the tour card be?

Acording to KT, $100,000, plus whatever you win at the events. This is a verbal commitment only, and Kevin is not legally responsible to fulfil a verbal contract.

Do the fans support or boycott future tournaments?

I hope not. Why do that to the greatest players in the world? This is for the players. If everyone is pissed at Kevin, don't take it out on the players. That would affect their income. Kevin is looking to sell, and if the fans boycott the IPT, nobody will buy it. Support it so that perhaps someone will see the potential that the sport has in the market. That only makes sense.

Do pool rooms continue to purchase IPT equiptment and host qualifiers with, maybe two or three entrants?

That would be their decision. As a former room owner, I wouldn't, but that's me. Don't boycott the companies that saw this as a great business opportunity. Hopefully they don't go down with the ship if this thing doesnt work out.

Does the IPT believe that they can do whatever they want and the players will simply go along?

Of course they do.

Do the players form a player's union to try and protect themselves?

Union, no. Players organization that is separate from the IPT, yes. The players need representation. They dont need to be worried about all these issues. There job is to play pool. They need to be able to rest easy knowing that there is someone in their corner to represent them in issues. Right now, a player is fined and their is no recourse to challenge the decision. A bit unfair if you ask me.

Or are these memories very short lived and the professional pool players simply accept this type of treatment as part of the sport and nothing at all changes? This is also a very likely, unfortunate, possibly?

After the Camel Tour folded in 1998, nobody would touch men's professional pool. This was due to the tour going down the road flipping off the rest of the industry saying "We don't need you, never have, never will." Well, the players paid for the sins of Don Mackey's business decisions. I'm sure Don had their best interests in mind, but he did not foresee RJR pulling out so quickly. With nowhere to turn within the industry, he tried to secure a deal with Phillip Morris. Bad idea. Meanwhile, the players found themselves without a tour. I hope that doesnt happen again. The players need to realize that the industry will help them if they get off their butts and help the industry. They can't just show up with their hand open wanting more money if they are not willing to do more work in positively marketing the sport.

 

[wayne]

Don't forget that if Mr. Ho purchases the IPT that drastic changes could be in store for this tour's future. The speculation that the WPA has shut down communication with the IPT is not true. I'm sure that if Mr. Ho's staff is willing to listen and appreciate the experience of people that have marjeted the sport worldwide, that an workable cooperative deal could be reached to make the IPT and the entire sport bigger than anyone could have imagined. Standing off against each other has gotten the sport exactly where it was before KT came along, and he came in and made the same error in judgment that has kept us at a standstill for years. Hopefully he reconsiders that decision and realizes that such an agreement would help the players much more than his money could.

Blackjack all of your answers seem to be well thought out the only one I don't understand is the one with the WPA and KT's error with them. Didn't the WPA require KT to give them 10% of the added money, which meant he would have been required to pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars already and millions more if the IPT goes forward as planned. I believe he told them to basically take a hike, which any sane person would have done because they weren't really offering him anything which warranted this kind of an exchange.

You continually bring up this WPA and how it was wrong what KT did. Don't you think the WPA was wrong in requesting this kind of money? Don't you think they should have considered what their support of the IPT might be worth and asked for a fair exchange for that support?

I think the WPA took the wrong approach and if someone requested that kind of money from me for what they had to offer I would toss them out and be unwilling to deal with them again. I think the IPT did the right thing in this case and the WPA took a very, very wrong approach.

(I don't know what your connection to the WPA is or even if you have a connection but I find it hard to believe that someone with no connection could honestly believe the WPA was deserving of this kind of a handout.)

Wayne

 

[mikepage]

[...]
But the IPT is a "professional pool players tour" and I can see that there is a totally different set of rules here. [...]

It's premature, imo, to call the IPT a "professional pool player's tour." There have only been a few events, and we've yet to go through even one cycle of annual events with players coming and going.

This is important, because it means the IPT has little in common with a company that's been going for a while and hits a tough spot. If the IPT doesn't have the $$ readily available right now to fulfill these early startup obligations, then it means that money was never really there. It means there never was a person or people risking these startup funds in an effort to make more later.

Could it be they hoped by going to 8-ball and starting with some household-name hall of famers that taverns all across the country would put up their local hot shot at $1000 a pop? Could it be they counted on thousands of qualifier entrants to get the $$ to pay for even these early tournaments?

To me it seemed like a very bizarre response to paultry numbers in qualifiers to *raise* the entry. It's as though the immediate receipt of an extra 10 or 20 thousand dollars was more important than having the events attended by lots of short stops. That scared me, but I chose to keep my mouth shut.

Then the London event was cancelled. What's up with that?

Then there's a rumor of the IPT, whatever that is, being sold for some outrageous sum. Think about that for a minute. The *value* of the IPT, to most of us, is in the promise of future events and the promise of the payouts. That's what's exciting to us. If you take away the promises, then what's left?

1. There's a website.
2. There's a good email list.
3. There's probably a good list of names and addresses.
4. And there's any recognition, trust, and goodwill that's been generated.

The first three have a collective value of perhaps tens of thousands of dollars. What about the fourth? Would *you* like to inherit something that's been oversold? that's likely to be judged against standards like hald million dollar payouts and everybody getting a hundred thousand dollars and so forth? Does anybody seriously think the value of this fourth item is positive?

And now, after all this, players haven't been paid? That's terrible. It's not slightly bad, or a bump in the road, or a glitch, or a setback. It's AWFUL.

Deno, your silence is deafening.

And yes, of course I know you're reading this. I think you're probably stuck in a tough spot.

 

[Nostroke]

The WPA definitely needs to adjust their sanctioning rules to make exceptions to the 10% fiigure. Im sure the WPA never anticipated a guy coming along and adding these huge amounts out of his pocket AT A SUBSTANTIAL PERSONAL LOSS. What was Reno $3,000,000.00?. He would have to send the WPA $300,000.00? I really dont blame him. There is no way I would do that.

How about wording such as "10% of the added amount to a maximum of $15,000.00 per tournament". Something like that may have pulled KT in and would be fair IMHO. Further wording could address higher amounts if the tournament was profitable or had offsetting outside sponsor money.

Now as far as the guaranteed $100K-Why would the IPT not be liable for that as everyone seems to think?. An offer has been made in writing and orally. It is made to a very specific group "2007 Tour Card Holders". The offer has been accepted. If the 2007 season is played, i think a judge would rule that the money is owed. Of course if the IPT failed, collecting would be fruitless but still I dont see why it wouldnt be owed.

 

[ribdoner]

It's premature, imo, to call the IPT a "professional pool player's tour." There have only been a few events, and we've yet to go through even one cycle of annual events with players coming and going.

This is important, because it means the IPT has little in common with a company that's been going for a while and hits a tough spot. If the IPT doesn't have the $$ readily available right now to fulfill these early startup obligations, then it means that money was never really there. It means there never was a person or people risking these startup funds in an effort to make more later.

Could it be they hoped by going to 8-ball and starting with some household-name hall of famers that taverns all across the country would put up their local hot shot at $1000 a pop? Could it be they counted on thousands of qualifier entrants to get the $$ to pay for even these early tournaments?

To me it seemed like a very bizarre response to paultry numbers in qualifiers to *raise* the entry. It's as though the immediate receipt of an extra 10 or 20 thousand dollars was more important than having the events attended by lots of short stops. That scared me, but I chose to keep my mouth shut.

Then the London event was cancelled. What's up with that?

Then there's a rumor of the IPT, whatever that is, being sold for some outrageous sum. Think about that for a minute. The *value* of the IPT, to most of us, is in the promise of future events and the promise of the payouts. That's what's exciting to us. If you take away the promises, then what's left?

1. There's a website.
2. There's a good email list.
3. There's probably a good list of names and addresses.
4. And there's any recognition, trust, and goodwill that's been generated.

The first three have a collective value of perhaps tens of thousands of dollars. What about the fourth? Would *you* like to inherit something that's been oversold? that's likely to be judged against standards like hald million dollar payouts and everybody getting a hundred thousand dollars and so forth? Does anybody seriously think the value of this fourth item is positive?

And now, after all this, players haven't been paid? That's terrible. It's not slightly bad, or a bump in the road, or a glitch, or a setback. It's AWFUL.

Deno, your silence is deafening.

And yes, of course I know you're reading this. I think you're probably stuck in a tough spot.

GREAT post.....and I can just imagine where he got himself stuck

 

[Blackjack]

Don't forget that if Mr. Ho purchases the IPT that drastic changes could be in store for this tour's future. The speculation that the WPA has shut down communication with the IPT is not true. I'm sure that if Mr. Ho's staff is willing to listen and appreciate the experience of people that have marjeted the sport worldwide, that an workable cooperative deal could be reached to make the IPT and the entire sport bigger than anyone could have imagined. Standing off against each other has gotten the sport exactly where it was before KT came along, and he came in and made the same error in judgment that has kept us at a standstill for years. Hopefully he reconsiders that decision and realizes that such an agreement would help the players much more than his money could.

Blackjack all of your answers seem to be well thought out the only one I don't understand is the one with the WPA and KT's error with them. Didn't the WPA require KT to give them 10% of the added money, which meant he would have been required to pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars already and millions more if the IPT goes forward as planned. I believe he told them to basically take a hike, which any sane person would have done because they weren't really offering him anything which warranted this kind of an exchange.

You continually bring up this WPA and how it was wrong what KT did. Don't you think the WPA was wrong in requesting this kind of money? Don't you think they should have considered what their support of the IPT might be worth and asked for a fair exchange for that support?

I think the WPA took the wrong approach and if someone requested that kind of money from me for what they had to offer I would toss them out and be unwilling to deal with them again. I think the IPT did the right thing in this case and the WPA took a very, very wrong approach.

(I don't know what your connection to the WPA is or even if you have a connection but I find it hard to believe that someone with no connection could honestly believe the WPA was deserving of this kind of a handout.)

Wayne

The WPA sanctioning fees that were "requested" were equal to the prize fund. A % of the prize fund is required for sanctioning and other guidelines need to be adhered to. If his proze fund was $30,000, the same scale would have been used. The larger prize fund equaled a larger santioning fee. KT was not asked for any more or any less than anybody else. It is a standard percentage. Furthermore, the money collected for sanctioning comes directly out of the added monies. The money goes directly back into the sport. If you have evidence that says otherwise, please feel free to share that with me. From what I see, any money collected by the IPT goes directly back into the IPT - either for production, marketing, or payouts. It does not go back into the sport. The sanctioning fee is NOT a handout. Why you and others continue to refer to it as such is beyond me and shows your lack of knowledge about the WPA and its history. Kevin knew very little about the WPA or the WCBS and what he did hear came from people that gave him misinformation. The WPA is part of a large group of organizations Click here that serves the three disciplines of Carom, Snooker, and Pocket Billiards worldwide. My connection is that I have supported the WPA and its mission since its inception in 1987. The United States has been the hardest nation to deal with in regards to adopting WPA standards. Initially, Paul Gerni was a representative for our country by default. I won't go into all of the specifics, but here is a link to the history (WPA History and it explains the lack of interest and cooperation that the United States showed initially.

When Kevin refused to pay the sanctioning and then made his public comments regarding the outcome of the talks he had with the WPA, personally I saw it as bad move made with the assistance of people that knew nothing about the WPA (probably Mike and Deno). "Screw them, this is OUR tour, not theirs. What have they ever done for us?" That is probably what was said.

Was it the right choice? Here we are a year later. Nothing much has changed regardless of the IPT payouts. A little bit of unity and cooperation would have gone a long way. All of this warring between ourselves has to stop in the best interest of the advancement of the game of pool, don't you think? I believe that if both sides sat down at the table and came to an agreement it would be one of the most positive events in the history of the sport. But then again, I'm just a naysayer, what do I know?

 

[SlimShafty]

Now as far as the guaranteed $100K-Why would the IPT not be liable for that as everyone seems to think?. An offer has been made in writing and orally. It is made to a very specific group "2007 Tour Card Holders". The offer has been accepted. If the 2007 season is played, i think a judge would rule that the money is owed. Of course if the IPT failed, collecting would be fruitless but still I dont see why it wouldnt be owed.

It would be nice if that was true, But it's not, I don't think players have a contract for the $100,000 yet, and you can be sure there will be all kinds of provisions and lawyer jargon. And yes if the tour fails it's worthless, you can seriously find thousands of written guarantee's that are worthless, It's not what your owed it's who owes you, and who you are

If you owe the government then yes, it's guaranteed, if on the other hand your a small business working for a billionaire casino owner that just files bankruptcy you would think he would have to pay once he reorganizes and makes money again or at the very least pay some out of his own pocket (he's clearly not bankrupt, just his company)

But you would be wrong, Owner A gets a contract to install lighting at a casino, casino knows it's in trouble and then goes bankrupt, even if this non payment puts business A out of business, tough luck, it happens and he paid people he owed pennies on the dollar. Now that Casino owner is lush with cash again, under the same name using your frickin lighting, why not make him pony up what he owes? nope not going to happen.

Most business have ways out regardless of what you hold, unless they try to keep the venture going, but loopholes abound for the rich, and sure you can try to fight things, but it gets expensive and usually goes nowhere. And to add insult to injury, sometimes the larger contractors get paid and the small guys take the gas pipe.

At some point yes a contract or written agreements will be real important with the IPT, but at this point the tour is no guarantee and hardly financially successful. Somewhere down the road if the tour makes it, then yes guaranteed contracts would hold up for players if they got booted or any other thing that might keep them from their money if the tour wants to keep going.

So no, at this point even a written document stating $100,000 would not be worth much in my mind, the IPT could just fold and not have to pay at all.

I still have people I am trying to collect from, contract and all, big and small companies, guarantees help, but in reality worth about the ink they are printed on. (unless your said government or big mega corporation, and even then sometimes they can't collect)

Contracts are only as good as the company your dealing with, IE: play for most MLB teams and yes your contract is strong. But in this case with the IPT it's a startup with little obligation if it goes under, and the IPT is certainly separate from all KT's money.

 

[jimmyg]

I will respnd to you as someone that cares deeply about the future of the game. May I first point out that all of the points I make are merely speculative from someone that does not have communication with anyone in IPT management. That is by their choice, not my lack of trying to communicate with them.

Maybe, but not likely. Don't forget that if Mr. Ho purchases the IPT that drastic changes could be in store for this tour's future. The speculation that the WPA has shut down communication with the IPT is not true. I'm sure that if Mr. Ho's staff is willing to listen and appreciate the experience of people that have marjeted the sport worldwide, that an workable cooperative deal could be reached to make the IPT and the entire sport bigger than anyone could have imagined. Standing off against each other has gotten the sport exactly where it was before KT came along, and he came in and made the same error in judgment that has kept us at a standstill for years. Hopefully he reconsiders that decision and realizes that such an agreement would help the players much more than his money could.

All good points and I personally believe that your interests and the interests of pool are one and the same.

But, you seem to have much more faith that KT was telling the truth when he stated that he and Mr. Ho had entered an arrangement or agreement to sell/buy the IPT. I do not, based purely on reasonable speculation, believe that such a sale is even remotely possible. If there was a shred of truth to it, I believe that everyone would have already been paid. The pr nightmare that this has created has dramatically diminished the value and marketability of the IPT, and KT is much too smart to have willingly damaged a pending and very profitable sale, especially right after announcing it. Besides, I have searched without success for any mention, other than KT's, of Mr. Ho's interest in the IPT, not the slightest mention from his camp.

I find it impossible to believe anything that KT says.

 

[pooltchr]

the money collected for sanctioning comes directly out of the added monies. The money goes directly back into the sport.

How exactly does all that money go "back into the sport"? Is it added to prize money for other events? Does it ever find it's way back to the players? I'm not sure I understand this statement.

From what I see, any money collected by the IPT goes directly back into the IPT - either for production, marketing, or payouts. It does not go back into the sport.

OK, now I'm even more confused. The IPT collects money and spends it on Production of pool events, Marketing of pool events, or paying pool players. How is that NOT going back into the sport????:

What exactly do you mean by putting money back into the sport? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$...I am honestly confused by your post.
Steve

 

[horsetoothedjac]

im equally confused by your post. a verbal contract is an enforcible contract. i cant even begin to respond to the many statements you have made that have no basis in fact. i think the bottom line is players havent been paid and there is no response by the IPT. that sums it up

 

[ShootingArts]

It depends

A verbal contract may or may not be enforceable. I believe it depends on the state and it definitely depends on the circumstances of the agreement. In the IPT's case, they made public statements, accepted entrees, the players performed as per their side of the agreement, and the only thing remaining is payment to be made. That should be dead bang anywhere in the US.

Of course right or wrong has little to do with any dealings in the orient from reports I have heard. Should the tour actually be sold to Mr. Ho with player or player sponsor's payments due(which I do think is unlikely but a possibility) I don't think there will be a snowball's chance in h*ll of anyone collecting anything if Mr. Ho simply moves the IPT offshore.

This is most likely just a tempest in a teapot and payment will be made when it is convenient to the IPT and KT. Just one more indication of the statue the players hold in KT's world however.

Hu

im equally confused by your post. a verbal contract is an enforcible contract. i cant even begin to respond to the many statements you have made that have no basis in fact. i think the bottom line is players havent been paid and there is no response by the IPT. that sums it up

 

[wayne]

The WPA sanctioning fees that were "requested" were equal to the prize fund. A % of the prize fund is required for sanctioning and other guidelines need to be adhered to. If his proze fund was $30,000, the same scale would have been used. The larger prize fund equaled a larger santioning fee. KT was not asked for any more or any less than anybody else. It is a standard percentage. Furthermore, the money collected for sanctioning comes directly out of the added monies. The money goes directly back into the sport. If you have evidence that says otherwise, please feel free to share that with me. From what I see, any money collected by the IPT goes directly back into the IPT - either for production, marketing, or payouts. It does not go back into the sport. The sanctioning fee is NOT a handout. Why you and others continue to refer to it as such is beyond me and shows your lack of knowledge about the WPA and its history. Kevin knew very little about the WPA or the WCBS and what he did hear came from people that gave him misinformation. The WPA is part of a large group of organizations Click here that serves the three disciplines of Carom, Snooker, and Pocket Billiards worldwide. My connection is that I have supported the WPA and its mission since its inception in 1987. The United States has been the hardest nation to deal with in regards to adopting WPA standards. Initially, Paul Gerni was a representative for our country by default. I won't go into all of the specifics, but here is a link to the history (WPA History and it explains the lack of interest and cooperation that the United States showed initially.

When Kevin refused to pay the sanctioning and then made his public comments regarding the outcome of the talks he had with the WPA, personally I saw it as bad move made with the assistance of people that knew nothing about the WPA (probably Mike and Deno). "Screw them, this is OUR tour, not theirs. What have they ever done for us?" That is probably what was said.

Was it the right choice? Here we are a year later. Nothing much has changed regardless of the IPT payouts. A little bit of unity and cooperation would have gone a long way. All of this warring between ourselves has to stop in the best interest of the advancement of the game of pool, don't you think? I believe that if both sides sat down at the table and came to an agreement it would be one of the most positive events in the history of the sport. But then again, I'm just a naysayer, what do I know?

Thanks for the explanation. It seems that what the WPA did with their request for their standard sanctioning fee made sense to them and makes sense to you. It certainly didn't make any sense to KT or the IPT. Maybe I don't understand what the IPT would get in exchange for 5 or 6 million dollars if it continues for a couple of more years. I know it gets sanctioned which means it has the WPA's permission to function. However, the IPT didn't need this to function. So what was the WPA going to exchange for the several hundred thousand they would have received to this point. The fact they are going to put it back into pool is not an exchange with the IPT.

Lots of companies have standard fees but they have the intelligence to look at something that is way beyond any realm they have dealt with before and make the necessary adjustment to get a good deal done. If I am used to getting 10% of $1,000 or $5,000 deal and someone comes along with a $10,000,000 deal I might think about adjusting my percentage before blowing the deal.

Sorry but calling it the same doesn't wash and I still think the IPT did the right thing and unless there was some viable exchange then it would have been a handout.

It sounds like the WPA is a very good organization but they blew it on this one.

Wayne

 

[Str8PoolMan]

...So my real questions are: Even if the IPT finally pays what it owes to the player's, what is the future of the IPT? Do the existing players continue to trust and support the IPT? Do the new players continue to enter $2,000 qualifiers trying to get a tour card? What will the perceived value of the tour card be? Do the fans support or boycott future tournaments?
Do pool rooms continue to purchase IPT equiptment and host qualifiers with, maybe two or three entrants? Does the IPT believe that they can do whatever they want and the players will simply go along? Do the players form a player's union to try and protect themselves?

Or are these memories very short lived and the professional pool players simply accept this type of treatment as part of the sport and nothing at all changes? This is also a very likely, unfortunate, possibly?

As soon as the cash spigot is once again spewing forth, the faithful will return to the IPT.

Why? For the love of the game, of course.

 

[SlimShafty]

As soon as the cash spigot is once again spewing forth, the faithful will return to the IPT.

Why? For the love of the game, of course.

I have been looking for one of those cash spigot's, those darn things always seem to run dry at the worst time

 

[Colin Colenso]

What exactly do you mean by putting money back into the sport? I'm not trying to be a smart a$$...I am honestly confused by your post.
Steve

He means that it will go into the WPA coffers = the sport.

I've continually raised objections to the value of the WPA, particularly their raison detre which is to establish billiard sports as an Olympic sport. Such that it might receive the fame and rapid growth of other minor sports that have gained inclusion into the Olympic Games, like, uhmmm...what's that swimming thingy where they wear nose clips and dance underwater?

Seriously though, if the WCBS does ever gain Olympic status, it will be very hard / unattractive for entrepreneurs to enter the sport. It will become bureacratised. Advertising companies and broadcasters also tend to stay out sports that are managed by such confederations which in most countries are government funded...government jobs. The reason being that they are usually inflexible.

It's little wonder that the strongest support for the WCBS comes out of Asia where most of the billiards associations are government positions.

Just some random meanderings,
Colin

 

[jjinfla]

Now as far as the guaranteed $100K-Why would the IPT not be liable for that as everyone seems to think?. An offer has been made in writing and orally. It is made to a very specific group "2007 Tour Card Holders". The offer has been accepted. If the 2007 season is played, i think a judge would rule that the money is owed. Of course if the IPT failed, collecting would be fruitless but still I dont see why it wouldnt be owed.

Bankrupt. That's Why.

If the IPT is bankrupt then they will be protected by law.

But then, was the IPT ever considered a company? Or a business?

Maybe there is nothing in writing explaining anything anywhere. Maybe this was just a lark by KT. Just a party that he held. Come to my party and I will let you play pool against each other and I will feed you and give you a massage and let you get all dressed up real nice and then I will pay the winners a whole lot of money.

Now that it is over maybe all he has to say is, "you really didn't think I would just give all that money away now did you? You people really are not that dumb are you? But you have to admit, you did have fun"

Ha Ha

Checks are in the mail.

Expect them by Friday. Sometimes the mail out of Chicago is very slow so maybe next Monday, or Tuesday at the earliest.

Jake