APA 8 Ball???

[justadub]

Any mid level APA player is going to look like an idiot if they try to play in a bar tournament. They have to call shots, no ball in hand, behind the line ...its real pool not recreational pool, no innings to count, no coaching...etc . etc. In reality bar pool players are better than APA pleyers.

Once again I am baffled. Why is it that an APA player isn't capable of being able to play by different rules in different settings? As long as they know which rules to play by, why can they not compete with bar players? Many of us in our league play in bars regularly. for the most part, our league is made up of bar players, and their wives/girlfriends perhaps. The differences really aren't that complicated, no matter how small you believe our brains to be...

This attitude continues to baffle me.

 

[desmocourtney]

Once again I am baffled. Why is it that an APA player isn't capable of being able to play by different rules in different settings? As long as they know which rules to play by, why can they not compete with bar players? Many of us in our league play in bars regularly. for the most part, our league is made up of bar players, and their wives/girlfriends perhaps. The differences really aren't that complicated, no matter how small you believe our brains to be...

This attitude continues to baffle me.

I think he is just saying APA players have been playing by bad rules for so long its made their game soft. I would have to agree.

The APA folks can say their rules are for beginners, but really the rules are what they are to make money and the money is making the APA blind to the fact that plenty of their rules are bad for pool on a large scale.

The APA is so big in my county that it crowds out the better leagues. The better players either travel to the next county or gamble on their own. Its really as simple as the greed of a few is ruining the game we all love.

 

[Majic]

Once again I am baffled. Why is it that an APA player isn't capable of being able to play by different rules in different settings? As long as they know which rules to play by, why can they not compete with bar players? Many of us in our league play in bars regularly. for the most part, our league is made up of bar players, and their wives/girlfriends perhaps. The differences really aren't that complicated, no matter how small you believe our brains to be...

This attitude continues to baffle me.

My post is in reply to APA League Operators post, where he states



"I feel sorry for the amateurs who learn to play in bars, by "bar rules", and who look like idiots the first time they try to play some league pool. I don't insult the bars though, for making these people play by different rules. Bar rules are the way they are for a reason, APA rules are the way they are for a reason, and the rules you like are the way they are for a reason."

APA players play fool fine!! They , for the most part only know APA league rules.

 

[justadub]

I think he is just saying APA players have been playing by bad rules for so long its made their game soft. I would have to agree.

The APA folks can say their rules are for beginners, but really the rules are what they are to make money and the money is making the APA blind to the fact that plenty of their rules are bad for pool on a large scale.

The APA is so big in my county that it crowds out the better leagues. The better players either travel to the next county or gamble on their own. Its really as simple as the greed of a few is ruining the game we all love.

Boy oh boy, the big bad APA is now the ruination of pool... And they force all of the money out of poor unsuspecting players everywhere, those greedy bastidges...."ruining" the game.

I'm quite sure those pool halls where you live aren't unhappy with those greedy APA people. I'm sure there are plenty of places in this country that would love to have their halls "too" crowded. I find it hard to believe that your "better" leagues can't get any table time because of the APA. Maybe so. Sure seems hard to believe, but maybe the evil influence of the APA has seeped too far into the collective conciousness of your entire county. (cue the evil laughter bwahahahahahahahahahahah)

Exactly how are the different APA rules bad for pool again? Slop? C'mon, that ain't it. 9-ball is slop, even at the highest professional level. Slop is so simple and easy to understand it truly is a silly argument. Having to mark your pocket when shooting the 8? Again, trivial, and related to calling the pocket which folks seem to be so worried about.

So what is it?

Oh yeah, the 23-rule. Again. Gotta be it. Can't stack your teams with all your good-shooting buddies so you can beat up on beginners, so that's bad for pool.

Got it.

I bet the pool-room operators don't agree. Or the people who sell equipment. Or who sell lessons/dvd's/books. Because bringing all those ignorant tiny-brained new people into pool HAS to be bad, right? Best to keep things smaller, with only the smart players. They'll pay the bills.

Yup, I get it.

Over and out.

 

[DelaWho???]

I am in complete disagreement with you on the above statement. Your statement in reality is rather pointed and biased. Any mid level APA player is going to look like an idiot if they try to play in a bar tournament. They have to call shots, no ball in hand, behind the line ...its real pool not recreational pool, no innings to count, no coaching...etc . etc. In reality bar pool players are better than APA pleyers.

So if you play in the APA you don't play good pool? I'm a 5 in APA 8 ball and I'll stand behind my game, any rule set, bar box or 9' and I'll wager I won't go 2 and out. Some people play APA because it is the only game in town. It's not like we aren't playing pool the other 6 nights in the week.

 

[SKJoss72]

because this is relavant to someones earlier comment, I myself,was a 7 in both the APA and BCAPL out of 2 different areas of SE pennsylvania, i no longer play on the BCA team because the LO is a douche just like in the APA... BCA LO's can be sub-par also. i am also capable of competing in various tournaments with rules that different from either league and winning. so to say that APA players cant adapt to other rules is pretty much offensive. to myself and others

as I said earlier the 23 rule makes sense so that you cant stack teams, but unless you find other player to form a team with that have maxed out the skill level, you will be forced to break up teams, been there done that, so now I happen to be on a team that everybody is maxed out and with any combination doesn't have a problem fielding 23. we aren't in first place but close (tied for 2nd) I just have a problem with the slop aspect of it for reasons mentioned earlier. but I knew this going into joining the APA. do I believe that the APA is gonna produce the next generation of pool players, i doubt it. but the addition of new players bring in new customers, so maybe companies can survive in this day and age. so maybe we should just deal with the crappy rules and look on the bright side however hard that may be.

 

[APA Operator]

My post is in reply to APA League Operators post, where he states

"I feel sorry for the amateurs who learn to play in bars, by "bar rules", and who look like idiots the first time they try to play some league pool. I don't insult the bars though, for making these people play by different rules. Bar rules are the way they are for a reason, APA rules are the way they are for a reason, and the rules you like are the way they are for a reason."

APA players play fool fine!! They , for the most part only know APA league rules.

My statement went right over your head, didn't it?

1) I didn't say they look like idiots the first time they try to play APA pool, I said league pool, in ANY league. You have to explain what ball-in-hand is, and what a legal hit is (rail or pocket after contact, etc.).

2) There was no comparison of the relative playing abilities of bar players and APA players.

3) I was simply pointing out that there's a learning curve for anyone who is used to one set of rules and moves to something different, and that it's pretty lame for one group to insult the other simply because the rules are different.

4) I was using ChicagoRJ's words to make the point.

 

[APA Operator]

I think he is just saying APA players have been playing by bad rules for so long its made their game soft. I would have to agree.

It's pretty easy to make an empty statement like that. Watch...

APA players have been playing by good rules for so long it's made their game stronger.

See? Anyone can say something like that. Put some meat behind it - explain how those "bad" rules would make someone's game soft. I don't think you can do it.

Here's the basis for my statement. Consider the "bad" rules that have been mentioned in this thread - "call nothing", "take what you make on the break", "mark your pocket on the 8-Ball". (Did I forget any?)

I'll toss out marking the pocket right now. The sole purpose of that rule is to avoid arguments. It has no effect whatsoever on a player's game.

That leaves "call nothing" and "take what you make on the break". Since nobody makes slop on purpose (hence the name "slop"), I don't think you can say playing in a framework where slop counts makes you more sloppy. Not even beginners. But for non-beginners, you have to take into account the fact that your opponent could make some luck shots, and you have to step your game up so that the occasional luck shot won't hurt you. The same is true for "take what you make on the break." It doesn't make the game easier (which would be necessary to soften one's game), it makes the game harder. It's beginner-friendly because the beginners don't break much, so making it harder for those who do break is a good thing.

So there you have it. The "bad" APA rules make the game harder for the better players, so over time their games get stronger, not softer.

The APA folks can say their rules are for beginners, but really the rules are what they are to make money and the money is making the APA blind to the fact that plenty of their rules are bad for pool on a large scale.

Again, an empty statement. Please clarify which of the rules are bad for pool?

The APA is so big in my county that it crowds out the better leagues. The better players either travel to the next county or gamble on their own. (

Did you just say the "better" leagues can't compete with APA? If that's true, why do you think they're better?

Players have a choice - nobody puts a gun to their head and tells them which league to play in. They CHOOSE APA. Give them a little credit for recognizing where they get the most value for their entertainment dollar.

Its really as simple as the greed of a few is ruining the game we all love.:

Another empty statement. Can you explain what you mean by greed and how that ruins the game, or is this just another pot shot at APA? Oh, and don't forget - most of the other leagues are for-profit business ventures, too.

One time, one of my players looked at me and said "You know, you've done more for pool here in the past five years than anybody ever did in the previous fifty." Me. The guy who runs his league as a business, for profit. That was several years ago, and there were other leagues here when I started. I look around today and see a lot more good players than there were when I started. These people were all here then - they just didn't play pool. Now they do, and some of them are really good. How can that be bad for the sport?

 

[trob]

We have one apa league here in york...No one wants to play in it and the operator was going to shut it down. Until he was forced by the apa to continue it for another 3 years to full fill his contract or he would be sued lol It's an in house league and I think they managed to put just enough playeres together to have a few teams. It's a lot more expensive to play then they other leagues around here. If I had to choose I'd play apa over tap and all that sand bagging garbage that goes on there. That got ran out of york 7 or 8 years a go.

 

[desmocourtney]

Put some meat behind it - explain how those "bad" rules would make someone's game soft. I don't think you can do it.


The 23 rule encourages players to sandbag and lay down. If you play long enough like that your skills will suffer.



Here's the basis for my statement. Consider the "bad" rules that have been mentioned in this thread - "call nothing", "take what you make on the break", "mark your pocket on the 8-Ball". (Did I forget any?)

I'll toss out marking the pocket right now. The sole purpose of that rule is to avoid arguments. It has no effect whatsoever on a player's game.

That leaves "call nothing" and "take what you make on the break". Since nobody makes slop on purpose (hence the name "slop"), I don't think you can say playing in a framework where slop counts makes you more sloppy. Not even beginners. But for non-beginners, you have to take into account the fact that your opponent could make some luck shots, and you have to step your game up so that the occasional luck shot won't hurt you. The same is true for "take what you make on the break." It doesn't make the game easier (which would be necessary to soften one's game), it makes the game harder. It's beginner-friendly because the beginners don't break much, so making it harder for those who do break is a good thing.

So there you have it. The "bad" APA rules make the game harder for the better players, so over time their games get stronger, not softer.




Again, an empty statement. Please clarify which of the rules are bad for pool?

Did you just say the "better" leagues can't compete with APA? If that's true, why do you think they're better?



I did not say other leagues could not compete, but that is probably true. People choose APA because its the only game in town. Its the best at attracting new players, agreed.



Players have a choice - nobody puts a gun to their head and tells them which league to play in. They CHOOSE APA. Give them a little credit for recognizing where they get the most value for their entertainment dollar.


Another empty statement. Can you explain what you mean by greed and how that ruins the game, or is this just another pot shot at APA? Oh, and don't forget - most of the other leagues are for-profit business ventures, too.



Greed is when someone proposes a (23) rule change and they are shot down because if implemented the new rule might mean fewer new players coming in and therefore less income for the APA. This rule alone splits up friends on teams and the stability of teams is important to many players. But you knew that.



One time, one of my players looked at me and said "You know, you've done more for pool here in the past five years than anybody ever did in the previous fifty." Me. The guy who runs his league as a business, for profit. That was several years ago, and there were other leagues here when I started. I look around today and see a lot more good players than there were when I started. These people were all here then - they just didn't play pool. Now they do, and some of them are really good. How can that be bad for the sport?

I think you are taking my anti APA sentiments personally. I am not making judgments about you or your situation. I am only reporting what I have seen over the last 20 years in MY APA area. It HAS been bad for pool in many ways. In other ways yes, it has drawn many non players out and that is good on one hand,$$, but I would rather go to the dentist than watch a 3 play a 3.

 

[APA Operator]

I think you are taking my anti APA sentiments personally. I am not making judgments about you or your situation. I am only reporting what I have seen over the last 20 years in MY APA area. It HAS been bad for pool in many ways. In other ways yes, it has drawn many non players out and that is good on one hand,$$, but I would rather go to the dentist than watch a 3 play a 3.

Oh, I get it now. You don't like APA because the 23 rule won't let you play with your friends, who are all good players. That sucks for you. It doesn't suck for all the lowly 2's and 3's in the world.

You still haven't given me ONE way APA is bad for pool, let alone the many ways that you claim.

 

[pdcue]

Well the last time I checked the slop type pool in 9 an 10 ball was designed to speed up the game for TV true at the higher levels it doesn't happen often but it does.

And where did you check??

The fact that you don't call shots in these games has zero to do with TV.
It is most likely because 9 ball evolved from Rotation - which does not
require calling shots, and has done since long before there ever was
any pool on TV - actually, from before there was any TV on TV.

Dale

 

[KRJ]

Hmmmm

APA Operator: QUOTE: Would those rules then be "regulation" rules? By whose declaration? You're really missing the whole point here. To be "official" there has to be a jurisdiction. The laws of the state of Texas do not apply in the state of Florida, but they are "official" in Texas. BCA rules are "official" whenever BCA has jurisdiction, and APA rules are "official" whenever APA has jurisdiction. APA wrote the rules on 8-Ball, too. Literally. I have them in print, written by APA, right here.

ChicagoRJ: Dude, really ?? I'll spell it out for you. The Billiard Congress of America (BCA). Established in 1948. They were in essence the authority on billiards. You know, guys like Mosconi and Hoppe intricately involved in the early years to ensure proper rules, regulations, etc. to promte the sport and tournaments in the country. And every Tom, Dick and Harry played by those rules. So, they were in essence like the federal government, their rule and authority extended to every state. And every player worth his salt played by the rules of the day. Let's not really compare the BCA to APA, because then you are letting your A** show. I've never said I was speaking about BCAPL.....I'm talking rules, not leagues. The APA is fine, the APA excutives get rich, the LO's get rich, and that is the American way, I got no problem at all with that. It's your comments about the rules that is literally laughable.

No the APA did not write the rules of 8 Ball, what they did do is take perfectly fine rules and bastardize them for no reason at all. Beginners don't need rule changes to learn to play a game.

The BCA is like film director Frank Capra, and the APA is Ted Turner that digitally colorized it's a Wonderful Life. You can choose which movie you like, and I"m sure there a few (those given TV time for good behavior) that actually enjoyed that movie after Turner single handedly destroyed a classic film by injecting it with what amounted to be colorized steriods. And that is OK if that is what you like , but don't come back later and tell me that Turner wrote the rules of movie making and should be honored for his horrible sins........

 

[ronhudson]

Someone mentioned the fact that the BCA set the standard for pool rules with their 1948 Rules for 8-Ball and then the APA had to screw them all up. Have you ever read those BCA rules? You will be SHOCKED to note that they didn't bother with calling pockets back then... and if you scratch on the 8-ball, it's a loss. And you wondered where the APA got those crazy ideas.

Oh, and how about that the 1 ball and the 15 ball have to go in specific side pockets or they are respotted until they do....?


http://www.okwinners.com/uploads/1948BCA8ballrules.pdf

 

[APA Operator]

Dude, really ?? I'll spell it out for you. The Billiard Congress of America (BCA). Established in 1948. They were in essence the authority on billiards. You know, guys like Mosconi and Hoppe intricately involved in the early years to ensure proper rules, regulations, etc. to promte the sport and tournaments in the country. And every Tom, Dick and Harry played by those rules. So, they were in essence like the federal government, their rule and authority extended to every state. And every player worth his salt played by the rules of the day. Let's not really compare the BCA to APA, because then you are letting your A** show. I've never said I was speaking about BCAPL.....I'm talking rules, not leagues.

Dude, really ?? I'll spell it out for you. The game of 8-Ball was invented around 1900. Did they not have any rules for 50 years? Regardless, you're confusing the words "official" and "original". Just because you think BCA wrote the original rules of 8-Ball, it doesn't make BCA 8-Ball rules "official" for all of time throughout the entire known universe. Again, in case you missed it, "official" implies jurisdiction. If I made up my own 8-Ball rules for my home table, those rules would be "official" at my house, no matter how convoluted they were. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

[KRJ]

Hmmmm

Dude, really ?? I'll spell it out for you. The game of 8-Ball was invented around 1900. Did they not have any rules for 50 years? Regardless, you're confusing the words "official" and "original". Just because you think BCA wrote the original rules of 8-Ball, it doesn't make BCA 8-Ball rules "official" for all of time throughout the entire known universe. Again, in case you missed it, "official" implies jurisdiction. If I made up my own 8-Ball rules for my home table, those rules would be "official" at my house, no matter how convoluted they were. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Never said "original", I said official. The BCA evolved to be the "promoter" of billiards. Somebody had to do it,and this oganization became into existent. The rules of APA are "official" for playing in APA... Great. Still don't make the rules right.

We're the BCA rules perfect over 50 years ago. NO. Did they evolve over the decades and get better. YES. Just ask any pro and they will tell you how they continually wanted to make the game more skillful and less "lucky". The pros are for that because of their skill, and surely didn't want some shortstop to beat them because of luck. (Please don't bring up 9 ball, because I don't play it and I don't like it, and we are talking about 8 ball rules)

I'm not sure why it is so hard to say the APA rules are terrible, or at least less than desirable in the pool world. You can make up rules for your home table, don't make them good either. Don't see what the problem is. So, lets leave the BCA's long history out of this and just compare what rules are better? Would you like to wager what the majority of pool players are going to vote. Yes, they will vote BCA by at least 90%, or higher. Take your bias out of the equation. I don't even play in a BCAPL league, I play in a BCA/ACS in house league.

I really don't care what league is better, or who does what, but the rules themselves I'm only talking about.

Which are better? Which do the pro's prefer? Which to the top amatuers prefer? Which to the road huslters prefer? Which do the Hall of fame players prefer? Which do the Pool instructors prefer? Which do the referee's prefer? Which do the tourney directors prefer? Basically, anyone and everyone except some die hard APA players that most likely never playeed by the "other" rules. But I'll let the APA 7's vote as well I'll bet they are over 80% as well. If this is the worst thing that can be said about the APA, as a LO you should be quite happy actually.....

 

[justadub]

OK, so where do you, the arbiter of all things relating to 8-ball rules, stand on the BCAPL changing to ball-in-hand anywhere on a scratch on the break?

The Billiard Congress of America didn't make that rule change, the league did.

So is the BCAPL eeeeeeeevil because they have changed a rule that the Billiard Congress of America has had in place for 50 years? Or is it OK, because it isn't the APA changing a rule for their league, like BCAPL is doing for their own?

I'm not saying one way is better than the other. Rather, I'm trying to point out to you that it really isn't a big deal. You, however, wish to rail against the APA whenever possible, and are standing behind this rule issue as some sort of paragon of truth and justice.

 

[APA Operator]

Never said "original", I said official. The BCA evolved to be the "promoter" of billiards. Somebody had to do it,and this oganization became into existent. The rules of APA are "official" for playing in APA... Great. Still don't make the rules right.

Ah, but it doesn't make them wrong, either.

Just ask any pro and they will tell you how they continually wanted to make the game more skillful and less "lucky". The pros are for that because of their skill, and surely didn't want some shortstop to beat them because of luck. (Please don't bring up 9 ball, because I don't play it and I don't like it, and we are talking about 8 ball rules)

I'm not sure why it is so hard to say the APA rules are terrible, or at least less than desirable in the pool world. You can make up rules for your home table, don't make them good either. Don't see what the problem is. So, lets leave the BCA's long history out of this and just compare what rules are better? Would you like to wager what the majority of pool players are going to vote. Yes, they will vote BCA by at least 90%, or higher. Take your bias out of the equation. I don't even play in a BCAPL league, I play in a BCA/ACS in house league.

I really don't care what league is better, or who does what, but the rules themselves I'm only talking about.

Which are better? Which do the pro's prefer? Which to the top amatuers prefer? Which to the road huslters prefer? Which do the Hall of fame players prefer? Which do the Pool instructors prefer? Which do the referee's prefer? Which do the tourney directors prefer? Basically, anyone and everyone except some die hard APA players that most likely never playeed by the "other" rules. But I'll let the APA 7's vote as well I'll bet they are over 80% as well. If this is the worst thing that can be said about the APA, as a LO you should be quite happy actually.....

Which rules are better? I don't think that question has an answer. Better for what? Better for competition between top players? That seems to be your only criteria. Top players are everything to you and everybody else is crap.

Better for beginners? You might get a different answer here.

Better for a crowded, noisy environment where alcohol is being consumed? There might be an emphasis on avoiding arguments here, so ...

I'm not interested in a debate over which rules are "better". Different sets of rules have different purposes, and the set that meets its purpose is about as good as you can get.

 

[Mowem down]

the world would be a much better place if the apa would just diiiiiiiiiiiiiiie.. then all the i think i can, i think i can players would get absorbed into the real world of pool and the resourses would be in the right hands like Marks...Long live BCAPL\CSI.....

 

[LeagueGuy]

the world would be a much better place if the apa would just diiiiiiiiiiiiiiie.. then all the i think i can, i think i can players would get absorbed into the real world of pool and the resourses would be in the right hands like Marks...Long live BCAPL\CSI.....

You really think so do ya?

If the APA dies, hundreds, of bars and poolrooms that count on that clientelle might go out of business. Less people would be inclined to buy a home table, less people would be inclined to buy cues, balls, and other pool related items. Less work for table mechanics, instructors etc. etc. How can that be good for the long term interest of the game.

The APA has 250,000 members, how many of those would move to an unhandicapped BCA league. Im am guessin some would but certainly not the majority. In my area the BCA league is on the decline simply because the average to below average player can't compete on a weekly basis with the top end players. I played on a team that won session after session and saw the league go from 16 down to 6 teams and then fold. There are other leagues in the area that are folding as well.

So if 200,000 of the 250,000 below average recreational players stopped playing, how can that possibly be good for the pool industry as a whole.