APA equipment really puts the "Amature" in APA

K

KMRUNOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just returned from the National 8 Ball Team Championships for the APA in Vegas.

I must say that the experience strongly pushed me to consider ending my membership in the APA. What are they thinking with the cue ball??? I went out there expecting the best possible playing conditions. While the tables are sloppy buckets, they are at least passable. The cloth was average speed, maybe a hair fast for a bar table, so great! However, the cue ball is the Aramith green logo ball. This ball does not play correctly, plain and simple. I don't know if the rails are wrong, or if the ball is overweight. It plays like a slightly heavy ball. Really a big turn off. If Aramith is sponsoring this event, why in the world wouldn't they showcast their premier product, the Pro Cup cue ball. Ok, I'll take the regular Super Aramith. Ok, I'll take the plain old Red Circle. God, any real cue ball would do fine. On the table one of the vendors had, there was a Red Cirlce ball, and otherwise it was the same. It played night and day different...BETTER!!!

I asked the tournament directors about why they used that ball and the response was "that is what the vendor supplied". I suggested that this made it sound like they didn't really give the issue any thought. He suggested that this was probably the case. In the team match tables, they are all open. There is no reason they couldn't open all the tables and just charge a flat admittance fee to the playing area. $10 gets you into the table area for 24 hours...something like that. Alan Hopkins is able to pull this off effectively in PA...why can't a big organization like the APA handle it? My only guess is that they don't care. I almost laughed out loud at the captains meeting when they said "many of your players might not be used to playing on conditions this good..." That is for damn sure.

It is even more of a joke in the Masters division. If these are supposed to be the best of the best in the league, yet they play on way less than standard conditions, what does that say about the league's opinion of itself? To me it says that "we are a league of bangers that wouldn't know a heavy bar ball from a quality cue ball, and if you want to play at a high level go elsewhere."

If anyone is going to sound off and suggest that "a good player should be able to adjust to the equipment", post that in a different thread. This thread is for the people that assume that a game will reach a higher level if everyone maxes out their abilities on standardized equipment. Why waste time adjusting to different cue balls? The game of pool is meant to be played with a cue ball that is the same size, weight, and consistency (meaning the mass is distributed evenly so it rolls correctly) as the other balls. A situation that does not conform to this standard is a spin-off game from pool, not pool.

Thoughts?

KMRUNOUT
 
Green Dot

I have asked this question and I was given an answer that made sense. I was not happy with it, but it made sense. They use the green dot because that is what is used on the bar tables that most everyone plays with all year long. It is the cue that comes with the table and is the standard for the league.
I carry a Super Aramith Pro around with me and used to use it when I could. Then the league operator pointed out to me that is was not to my benefit to use that as it is not what is used in the regional or national events.
Still not happy about it, but I use the green dot most of the time now for playing APA and my Super Aramith Pro for playing BCA.
 
Green Dot

Sorry, it double posted. I blame the slow internet.
 
Last edited:
Flettir said:
I have asked this question and I was given an answer that made sense. I was not happy with it, but it made sense. They use the green dot because that is what is used on the bar tables that most everyone plays with all year long. It is the cue that comes with the table and is the standard for the league.
I carry a Super Aramith Pro around with me and used to use it when I could. Then the league operator pointed out to me that is was not to my benefit to use that as it is not what is used in the regional or national events.
Still not happy about it, but I use the green dot most of the time now for playing APA and my Super Aramith Pro for playing BCA.
Click to expand...


The problem here is that many people in the APA play elsewhere too. When I play in a "real" tournament, I can rest assured that it will be a Centennial or Red Circle cue ball, Simonis cloth, 9' table, etc. This is where I encounter the most serious competition, and the people here expect the difference in player ability to be the only factor in determining the winner (luck of course, but not "ability to adjust"). Now for sure some tables will play faster, pockets will be tighter, etc. These adjustments, however, do not *fundamentally* change the nature of the game. A cueball being a different weight, on the other hand, is a fundamental change to the physics of the game. I don't want to waste my time building up a skill (playing with a heavier ball) that will surely damage my regular playing ability. Hence my comment that it might be time to part ways with the APA.

Hopefully they will begin taking themselves seriously. Nearly every bar I know has the ability to open up their tables, and thus the ability to play with a regular ball. People need to speak up and let Valley and Aramith know that their product isn't good enough. If a major organization in pool like the APA sponsors it, they give exactly the opposite message. Talk about wasting your position in the industry. People want pool to grow, yet they settle for a half-assed attempt at organizing it. Let's slip a softball into a major league baseball game and see if they notice. Lets see how many home runs there are. Lets see how many people want to watch when almost no one can hit it out. Lets see a rifle-armed throw from 3rd to 1st with that softball. The point is the quality of the game would go down. Baseballs are pretty much the same everywhere. There are very precise standards for the ball, the bat, the bases, etc. Baseball is hugely popular. Take away these standards and see what happens.

Sorry for the rant...

KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
The problem here is that many people in the APA play elsewhere too. When I play in a "real" tournament, I can rest assured that it will be a Centennial or Red Circle cue ball, Simonis cloth, 9' table, etc. This is where I encounter the most serious competition, and the people here expect the difference in player ability to be the only factor in determining the winner (luck of course, but not "ability to adjust"). Now for sure some tables will play faster, pockets will be tighter, etc. These adjustments, however, do not *fundamentally* change the nature of the game. A cueball being a different weight, on the other hand, is a fundamental change to the physics of the game. I don't want to waste my time building up a skill (playing with a heavier ball) that will surely damage my regular playing ability. Hence my comment that it might be time to part ways with the APA.

Hopefully they will begin taking themselves seriously. Nearly every bar I know has the ability to open up their tables, and thus the ability to play with a regular ball. People need to speak up and let Valley and Aramith know that their product isn't good enough. If a major organization in pool like the APA sponsors it, they give exactly the opposite message. Talk about wasting your position in the industry. People want pool to grow, yet they settle for a half-assed attempt at organizing it. Let's slip a softball into a major league baseball game and see if they notice. Lets see how many home runs there are. Lets see how many people want to watch when almost no one can hit it out. Lets see a rifle-armed throw from 3rd to 1st with that softball. The point is the quality of the game would go down. Baseballs are pretty much the same everywhere. There are very precise standards for the ball, the bat, the bases, etc. Baseball is hugely popular. Take away these standards and see what happens.

Sorry for the rant...

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...
I don't think the APA will ever take themselves seriously, or as seriously as you would like. I think you are looking for pro-quality playing conditions and equipment, and given what I have witnessed in the APA during my short membership thus far, I don't think that will ever happen. The APA is a banger-league, and the players will be treated as such.

Is it meant to be disparaging? I don't think so. Perhaps (and this is just speculation) the APA governing body (or parties) know their overall caliber of pool player, and subsequently they know the majority of these players won't be expecting pool at a "World Pool Masters" level.

I joined APA this year for the first time. I think it's called an "in-house" league. While I am having fun, I am well aware I am not playing my best pool. Given the atmosphere and playing conditions, it is virtually impossible for me to pull that off.

The team we played last week had one member who brought her baby, and then sat the kid in the stroller at the rack-end of the table. Needless to say, the kid cried the WHOLE TIME, and I thought my teammates (a bunch of 18-21 year-olds) were going to lose their minds!

I observe these players every Monday night. Of the 50 people there, maybe five or six of them are aware of pool etiquette. They think nothing of yelling to each other across the room, chit-chatting during matches, unintentionally sharking you etc. They don't know any better. Some of these people don't even know what lagging is. So...to give them top quality playing conditions in Vegas or anywhere else seems unnecessary.

Is is justified or right? Maybe not.

But that seems to be the M.O. with APA, at least to me so far. I don't imagine I will continue much longer. I joined out of boredom and curiosity, and while my teammates and most of the people there are nice, the quality of pool suffers.

C'est la vie.
 
Flettir said:
I have asked this question and I was given an answer that made sense. I was not happy with it, but it made sense. They use the green dot because that is what is used on the bar tables that most everyone plays with all year long. It is the cue that comes with the table and is the standard for the league.
I carry a Super Aramith Pro around with me and used to use it when I could. Then the league operator pointed out to me that is was not to my benefit to use that as it is not what is used in the regional or national events.
Still not happy about it, but I use the green dot most of the time now for playing APA and my Super Aramith Pro for playing BCA.
Click to expand...

I play on 2 Leagues locally and I am only on a bar table with a green dot cue ball about 10% of my table time max.

We play mostly on 7' Diamonds and 8' Olhausens. Several local were complaing about the cue balls and dead rails in Vegas.

Are they also pouring beer on all the tables at the Nationals to replicate "normal" conditions? :grin:
 
The APA does not care about a qball. It a business. Money making racket for the operators & head office. Heard em in take their money & heard em out. Just that simple.
 
As sponsors of the event, I actually wonder if Valley might have something to say about the use of a cue ball that is normally incompatible with their table. By switching to a non-bar cue ball it might be a bit of an insult to Valley, so maybe that is an unspoken reason why the APA wouldn't consider it.

That said, I completely understand how you feel. I'm sort of an equipment snob as far as the table and balls, although I don't really let it bother me, since I live in an area where I can't be picky about that.

We don't have APA here, but I do play in the BCAPL, so I'm glad to know that there will be Diamonds with "real" pool balls waiting for me in Vegas. :D
 
Well, it sounds like everyone gets exactly the impression that I get. I would love to have an APA person respond to this thread, but my guess is that no one in the APA office knows what an "azbilliards" is.

Depressing...I hang on for my teammates alone...

KMRUNOUT
 
Good thing babies have no teeth anyway

inside_english said:
The team we played last week had one member who brought her baby, and then sat the kid in the stroller at the rack-end of the table. Needless to say, the kid cried the WHOLE TIME, and I thought my teammates (a bunch of 18-21 year-olds) were going to lose their minds!
Click to expand...

OMG, the kid was probably ballin' cuz he didn't want to get hit in the noggin with a stray cue ball on a break. :mad: Please tell mom to sit him safely at the head of the table next time. :)
 
Cuebacca said:
As sponsors of the event, I actually wonder if Valley might have something to say about the use of a cue ball that is normally incompatible with their table. By switching to a non-bar cue ball it might be a bit of an insult to Valley, so maybe that is an unspoken reason why the APA wouldn't consider it.

That said, I completely understand how you feel. I'm sort of an equipment snob as far as the table and balls, although I don't really let it bother me, since I live in an area where I can't be picky about that.

We don't have APA here, but I do play in the BCAPL, so I'm glad to know that there will be Diamonds with "real" pool balls waiting for me in Vegas. :D
Click to expand...

Ha ha...there was a brief period of a year or so when I could have said the same thing about the APA. They had Diamond Smart tables in their championship a little while back. However, I understand that Diamond perchased the BCA, or vice versa, and decided not to do business with the APA anymore. I imagine that this was a competetion thing, but it would be just as believeable that Diamond didn't want to soil its image by being associated with the APA.

KMRUNOUT
 
Cue Ball

The red circle will not work on a Valey table. The only coin op table it will work on is a Diamond. It has to do with the optical density sensor that Diamond uses. The only to get a Red Circle to work on a Valley table is to open them up and charge a green fee. Then you could grab it out of the side where the rest of the balls go. Otherwise they have to use a magnetic or a weighted cue ball.
 
Won't get no responses

KMRUNOUT said:
Well, it sounds like everyone gets exactly the impression that I get. I would love to have an APA person respond to this thread, but my guess is that no one in the APA office knows what an "azbilliards" is.

Depressing...I hang on for my teammates alone...

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

I doubt you will get any responses from anyone in the upper level of the APA managment. I myself would love to hear a response from that operator down in the Shrevport LA area who had Gary Abood in his league LOL. But I certainly ain't gonna hold my breath.

When I moved away from Maine in the early 90's there was not much going on up here for leagues other than the VNEA. When I moved back a few years ago the APA is now state wide run by 1 operator whos making a fortune off his setup. What dumbfounds me is that with 250 teams playing 2 nights a week if you asked 95% of the players involved can you tell me what the Johnson City tournament was is they can't even answer that. Let along 95% of them have never played a game of "real" 9ball without counting balls as points.

The APA sells entertainment not actual "POOL".
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Ha ha...there was a brief period of a year or so when I could have said the same thing about the APA. They had Diamond Smart tables in their championship a little while back. However, I understand that Diamond perchased the BCA, or vice versa, and decided not to do business with the APA anymore. I imagine that this was a competetion thing, but it would be just as believeable that Diamond didn't want to soil its image by being associated with the APA.

KMRUNOUT
Click to expand...

Oh wow, I didn't realize that the APA had used Diamonds before Mark purchased the BCAPL. That is interesting info, and too bad for the APA. I'm sure Valley is pretty happy about that though. :embarrassed2:
 
I know this was supposed to go in a different thread, but at the end of your post you said "thoughts?" so I guess I'll add my thoughts.

One of the great things about our game is the different playing conditions we encountered in local taverns, pool halls, regional events, and national tournaments. One recent tournament in Winchester, VA, the air conditioner was broke and the balls were sticky and dirty. The tables were diamonds, very nice, but the humidity and the dirtiness of the balls created an interesting dynamic. John Schmidt was there and had trouble adjusting. He was telling me about a ball cleaning device he was using to keep the balls clean while he practiced. After discussing it, he wasn't sure if having perfect conditions at home was great for practice since you rarely find perfect conditions at tournaments. An interesting discussion, maybe even another thread someday.

I played Turning Stone a couple years ago and thought the tables were perfect. I remember hearing a lot of top caliber players saying that the felt was sliding too much the first couple days since it was recently installed. By the time day three came along, no more sliding. So the tables changed from day to day. But I think that you can always find something wrong with the tables, cloth, rails, venue, temperature, balls, etc, etc, if you're looking for it. When I went out to Vegas last year for the APA tournament I thought the conditions were acceptable. I played against some guy from Illinois and lost hill/hill and I think we both missed 1 ball the entire set. I'm pretty sure we couldn't have done that if the conditions were as crappy as you describe. Anyway, thrash away. My opinion is to adjust to the conditions in front of you the same way the NFL teams adjust to differences in turf, stadiums, wind, temperature, etc.
 
It is my understanding that the APA had a deal with Diamond for the national tournaments. When Mark Griffin bought the BCAPL they deemed it a conflict of interest since he was half owner of Diamond. They then signed a deal with Valley for their tables. Since VNEA is a larger organization than the BCAPL, the argument made no sense.
 
I learned something a long time ago that has made adjusting to conditions easier. I use a heavier cue when dealing with a heavier cueball. If I am going to have to play bar box pool with the slug cue ball, I have my breaker with a stiffer shaft and a little over an ounce heavier than my playing cue. All my normal playing cue's shafts fit it as well. The heavier cue helps you move the heavier cueball a little easier. Also, learn how to play more follow and less draw with the heavier cueball. I'd gladly take your scenario over what we get in our league. 4.5x9 tables, aramith ball set, cheap plastic cueball - it draws a mile, but can't follow at all.
 
I guess I don't know the problem. The last year that the Valley tables were used in the BCA Nationals, we used the Green Aramith Logo ball, and they were great. Their only problem seemed to be that they were picking up chalk more readily than other balls.

We've done measurements and such with that ball, and they at the time were the best solution for bar table pool that use a magnetic return system.

At the bars that I play pool (the ones with the best equipment in the area), the Green Aramith Logo ball is what they use. Everyone loves them.

Here's a related thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=88923

Fred
 
Last edited:
mapman72 said:
My opinion is to adjust to the conditions in front of you the same way the NFL teams adjust to differences in turf, stadiums, wind, temperature, etc.
Click to expand...

Exactly. You have to psyche yourself up for whatever is there. Easier said than done of course! :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top