altering the course of the cue ball is what applies in a double hit, triple hit, etc. If it didn't then I can hit the ball around the table, and stop it with my tip to get position. Hey, double hits are legal! :thumbup:
APA Frustration with Constant Double Hit Violations
- Thread starter nobcitypool
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altering the course of the cue ball is what applies in a double hit, triple hit, etc. If it didn't then I can hit the ball around the table, and stop it with my tip to get position. Hey, double hits are legal! :thumbup:
As I read the APA rules, which are somehow more confusing every time I struggle through them, that "double-clutching" applies only when the cue ball is in hand. I suppose it is for the case when the cue ball is in hand and the player taps the cue ball lightly on the warm-ups and then shoots and says the first hit was just a position adjustment.They do mention double hits in the preface paragraph to the list of fouls. Not sure why it's listed there. And they say it's also called "double-clutching," as if that clears things up.
Double hits are not listed in the list of fouls. Evidently they are fouls only when you have ball in hand.
I hope that you left of the "IF" at the beginning of this sentence :thumbup:
I assume you are referring to "altering the course of the cue ball" as in:
f. A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the
8-ball or the cue ball in a game losing situation.
I'm describing a game-winning situation, not a game-losing situation. Or did you mean somewhere else in the rules where altering the path of a ball is mentioned?8-ball or the cue ball in a game losing situation.
By a close reading of the rules, even the first hit on the cue ball is illegal.
The cue ball is close(<2") from the object ball, you shoot, the cue ball contacts the object ball and momentarily stops. As your stroke continues, you contact a (currently/momentarily) stopped cue ball, and alter its path. That's the basic context behind any double hit. Does the rule for fouls g. above not cover that situation?
The APA rep will tell you there is no double hit or push in that league. You can't will it to be true.
edited to add;
Anyway, by your interpretation of the rules the a double hit is an immediate loss of game in certain situations.
10.f. A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the
8-ball or the cue ball in a game losing situation.
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Our LO will say there is a double hit and understands what's involved quite well. Taking that to enforcing the rule is the league is another matter altogether.
LOL, yes. I'm looking at that same spot for multiple hits. For manipulating the cue ball, this is where I interpret the double hit, triple hit, etc. A multiple hit causes movement outside of the first strike. For that section, I interpret it that the first legal strike is accepted, and all else is illegal.
Code:
g. Causing movement of the cue ball, even
accidentally, is a foul.
It seems the APA rules gets loopier each time I read about them.
I solved the APA rule issue for myself at least.
I have never played in an APA league nor plan to as long as there are leagues that use "real" rules. Or tournaments. Or just plain pool halls or pool tables somewhere.
I solved the APA rule issue for myself at least.
I have never played in an APA league nor plan to as long as there are leagues that use "real" rules. Or tournaments. Or just plain pool halls or pool tables somewhere.
Here is how to spot a double hit:
- If the CB and OB depart from the cue and travel down the table close together and at about the same speed, it was a double hit
- If the CB moves forward of it's position at impact and then backs up due to draw, it was a double hit
- If the CB and OB depart from the cue and travel down the table close together and at about the same speed, it was a double hit
- If the CB moves forward of it's position at impact and then backs up due to draw, it was a double hit
This one is not an absolute. With an elevated cue, especially a jump cue, it is possible to hit the upper part of the OB as the CB rises and have the CB go forward before drawing and not double hit the CB.
Local bylaws?
While the "regular" apa manual is spotty on the subject my local bylaws cover a double hit vs a push shot. The LO goes over the double hit every other tournament/ league event. We have to warn someone if it looks like they might double hit and tell them how to avoid it. If they foul then we can call a foul.l
And I always do. Why?
Because everyone should be playing by the same rules.
Everyone should be reading the bylaws or at least your captain. I don't know where the "chalk width" nonsense came from but it's nonsense. Nonsense passed down from one player to another. Maybe at some point someone who says "well I was a ref for so and so" blah blah and more blah. I hate that.
It's either in the rules or it isn't. If it isn't clear then that's what your division rep is for. I don't know about anyone else but our division rep info is on our weekly score sheets. Our LO also sends a weekly newsletter with the score sheets and this gets covered at least once a session.
I've seen too many games lost due to a double hit foul not being called to just not call it because someone is ignorant of the rules.
Once you watch a few videos and know what to watch for IT'S EASY TO SEE what a double hit is.
While the "regular" apa manual is spotty on the subject my local bylaws cover a double hit vs a push shot. The LO goes over the double hit every other tournament/ league event. We have to warn someone if it looks like they might double hit and tell them how to avoid it. If they foul then we can call a foul.l
And I always do. Why?
Because everyone should be playing by the same rules.
Everyone should be reading the bylaws or at least your captain. I don't know where the "chalk width" nonsense came from but it's nonsense. Nonsense passed down from one player to another. Maybe at some point someone who says "well I was a ref for so and so" blah blah and more blah. I hate that.
It's either in the rules or it isn't. If it isn't clear then that's what your division rep is for. I don't know about anyone else but our division rep info is on our weekly score sheets. Our LO also sends a weekly newsletter with the score sheets and this gets covered at least once a session.
I've seen too many games lost due to a double hit foul not being called to just not call it because someone is ignorant of the rules.
Once you watch a few videos and know what to watch for IT'S EASY TO SEE what a double hit is.
I have never encountered the chalk width issue in apa but it was used quite extensively when I used to play bcapl. I was a newbie to leagues at the time and when the 1st time a situation come up with the chalk width rule my opponent said he wanted to have some one watch the shot. the lo came over to watch and I had him explain to me what the issue was. after he explained to me a double hit or push I made the shot and it was called a foul simply because the cueball travelled past the spot where the object ball was. I used a stop shot where the cueball rolled about an inch and a half past where the object ball was. never could understand why it was a foul.
as far as the apa in our area. double hits and pushing the cueball are fouls and always enforced. as far as people knowing what to look for we always call somebody over who knows what to look for. usually a master league player if the lo is not available.
wow glad i never played league pool, sounds like the blind leading the blind.
if they are honorable they would call the foul on themselves, you can feel a double hit most of the time with your cue, or hear it.
second anyone who knows anything about pool, can tell by how the balls react if the hit was clean or not,
this is so simple its not anything to manage at all, when i was a C player i watched "hits"
in $1000+ action in 1985, the guys playing who asked me to watch could spot me the 5 ball or the 5/7.
blind leading the blind. wow how do you help that-intervention i suppose.
good luck and i hope it works out:smile:
This is kinda true, however the CB cannot go thru the OB and then back up.
It originated in the BCA rule book. I'm not talking about BCA league, I mean the rule book that was always referred to before all these leagues with different rules. I have not read one of the recent issues, so it may have been changed, but the chalk width measurement was talked about in all the releases that I have read.
Edit: for my own curiosity I looked up the current BCA rules on their website. They have changed the wording of the rule and it no longer uses chalk as an example of width. It was in the older books and that is where the term came from.
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It's never had an effect on me because I've never played in a league.
However,under mid-90's Pro Billiards Tour rules,it went like this.
If the CB and OB were within the distance of a chalk's width,as mentioned,if the cue ball went forward more than 1/2 a ball,it was indeed a foul.
If they were frozen,you were allowed to shoot straight thru the ball with a level stroke.
I've never questioned it. Tommy D.
However,under mid-90's Pro Billiards Tour rules,it went like this.
If the CB and OB were within the distance of a chalk's width,as mentioned,if the cue ball went forward more than 1/2 a ball,it was indeed a foul.
If they were frozen,you were allowed to shoot straight thru the ball with a level stroke.
I've never questioned it. Tommy D.