APA League Play - What's Your Opinion?

[TWOFORPOOL]

Apa

I have been playing in the APA league for about 6 years now. I joined this league because my wife couldn't hit the end rail when we started. At the time BCA was out of the question because she would of been ran over. The ones that seem to complain the most about sandbagging are generally the ones trying to sandbag themselves who also think they play better than they actually do. They are generally 5's or 6's who doesn't understand speed of someones skill very well.

The lower skill level players (2, 3, 4) have fun playing other lower skill levels because they can compete which is what pool is all about.

I have been to nationals 4 times at the highest skill level (7 in 8 Ball & 9 in 9 Ball). Players are getting caught sandbagging and the team gets disqualified. There isn't much sandbagging in my area since the league reps monitor it closely. Sandbagging players are generally caught at Tri-Cups and dealt with appropriately.

APA is a fun league and the 2's & 3s play just as hard to win as the higher skill levels. I have had alot of players become better and move up skill levels and start their own team since I can't have very many high skill level because of the skill level cap. I look at the weekly fees to play the same as going to a movie. I don't expect anything back going to a movie and I don't see why people expect money back from playing in the APA.

 

[frankncali]

My thoughts on the APA

First off as an Org I think that the APA makes enough to do a little more.. however theres no competition to keep them fresh. Other leagues just arent as strong and have different sets of players.

I will take a few negatives and give my POV

1-Hinders players from getting better .... Wrong .. only a player can hinder themselves from getting better. If your capt or teammates asks you to lay down and you do then you are hindering yourself. If you dont try to improve due to peer pressure to stay a level then its your fault.

Sandbagging -- Its out there but is it effective. IMO its the biggest excuse for losing that is out there. Never your fault always the system. Im america we like to find ways to exploit systems and then ***** about how the system has kept us down,
I could care less if a guy is 1 SL down and thats usually the extent of it.
Most people that sandbag are just doing it so that their W/L column can be justified. Most and I mean (95%) of the ones sandbagging arent really doing anything because they dont really understand the system. Most would be rated the same if they tried. Its a way to justify to themselves that they are better than they are.

What I hate is leagues and LO (especially) that allow the blantant cases to exist. Problem is that most LO dont know the difference between
a 4 and a 5 and so on.
Go out and have fun and try your best. After each match look at ways that you could have done better and then try to build on those thoughts.
All the competition does is give you a control to measure results.

Prize money -- If your in the APA for money your in the wrong organization and for that matter hobby. Theres barely any money in pool at the highest level.

Reasons to play --
Because you like pool and would like organized competition.
Its usually a fun night out with some friends
It nice to see other people and places
Find the better players and learn
It offers a variety of competitions from singles to team play
Nationals are loads of fun even if your team doesnt make it you should go


For me its a fun night that I can do with friends of all SLs. Pool and its skill levels segregates many groups. The APA can be a way to blend.
I like helping and seeing the lower skill level players learn and get better.
I dont sandbag and dont think its needed to win. Matchup and helping your teammates out is much more useful.
I am not afraid of having players move up. However I stress to my friends not to get caught up in a number....strive to get better and the number will follow.

I like the APA as a sidedish in my pool world.... I dont think it should be anyones main course. Pool shoud be the ultimate ingredient and players can enjoy it in many ways. The APA is just one of them.

 

[buzzsaw]

I play very avidly in the APA in manhattan, but I have to constantly remind myself that it is just for fun (since I try and take pool seriously in general).

A) as stated the short races are terrible. I firmly believe that any race should be at least 3 games for the lower handcapped player to win. With having to win only 2, luck plays far too much of a factor - even for a highly skilled player against a much weaker player (unless you are moving way up the food chain to semi-pro 7's - then it's not so much a problem).

B) Sandbagging is rampant in certain areas of the country. My team just went to Vegas and we actually did quite a bit better than expected (finishing in the money in 65th-128th place) however we were knocked out, nay COMPLETELY BLOWN OUT OF THE WATER, by a team that obviously gamed the system. And many teams go over and over to the national competition doing so the same way, sandbagging or changing the team makeup as much as possible in the spring and bringing in "ringers". The last match we lost was against an SL5 they affectionately called "The Hammer". If you have a nickname like that you are quite obviously a ringer who is underhandicapped.

B part two) The APA as a national body does not like to stir the waters. Thus even if people are blatently gaming the system they often don't disqualify you. I have heard numerous stories of people going up 2 SL's (cause for team DQ) yet the team does not get DQd. Why - they've already gone so far it would create too much mess to DQ them now. It seems like the APA is getting slightly better on this front.

B part three) League operators don't do what they can to avoid it. Many LO's know it goes on but do nothing to penalize teams for it. There are certain areas of the country (texas and illinois notably) that regularly field teams that dominate. It does not make sence.

C) An earlier post mentioned that handicaps are not equal across different league areas. This is true, but it is not because you are rated against your local competition. Mostly it is due to the difference in adherence to marking defensive shots. There is some leeway for handicaps to be a bit "off" because your local competition sucks - but the handicapping is roughly determined by innings-safeties/games...it doesn't really matter if you play weak or strong players - this shouldn't affect the overall innings-safties number.

D) I very strongly disagree with the handicapping levels. My main problem being that 2-6 seem pretty evenly divided up, but when you hit 7, there are people that are just barely 7's and then there are people that regularly win money in open tournaments who are 7's. Should a 6 only get a 1 game spot from both of those players - when in gambling the spot would actually vary quite a bit?

E) As stated by many the money is bad - this is why it is good to play somewhere where your host location will pay your dues - at least then it's not so much out of pocket. Getting to Vegas is very difficult - in manhattan where I play it amounts to winning 6 consecutive matches (2 playoff, 2 tri-annual, 2 city championship). This is not an easy thing to do with a team whose makeup might be changing and SL's changing.

At some point I'm sure I'll be fed up with it, but I like just hanging out with some friends in a low key environment and having some beers. It's a nice low stress thing compared to my "serious" league play...

I agree with most of the things you are saying, however, if you are playing a good player and you're being "safed" most of the time your innings will be high. This will effect your handicap. You may be able to run out everytime - if you get a shot. But if you don't get a shot you probably won't make a ball - thus another inning. I can play a safe and you would never know.

 

[TheBook]

If you only want one team that will be a travel team than the APA will be good for guys that want a night out and play just to play.

If you want to do it as a in house league than I would not consider it. All of the money will go to the League Operator. Very little if anything comes back to the players. You room will lose money as it will have to provide free table time and I doubt that you will make it up in drinks sold.

The team that does go to Vegas would be better off going on their own if that is the only motivation for playing.

 

[Flettir]

My thoughts on the APA

Reasons to play --
Because you like pool and would like organized competition.
Its usually a fun night out with some friends
It nice to see other people and places
Find the better players and learn
It offers a variety of competitions from singles to team play
Nationals are loads of fun even if your team doesnt make it you should go

For me its a fun night that I can do with friends of all SLs. Pool and its skill levels segregates many groups. The APA can be a way to blend.
I like helping and seeing the lower skill level players learn and get better.
I dont sandbag and dont think its needed to win. Matchup and helping your teammates out is much more useful.

I have seen a lot of good comments on the APA. Remember, no system is perfect. As long as we the players try to improve it. It will continue to imporve.

One thing I have not seen mentioned is what the APA, BCA and others are doing to change the way common people look at pool. It is helping to change it from dingy pool halls where gamblers and con men hang out to a fun and wholesome family activity. I think making it a family friendly activity will be one of the best things that can happen to pool.

 

[txspaderz]

If you only want one team that will be a travel team than the APA will be good for guys that want a night out and play just to play.

If you want to do it as a in house league than I would not consider it. All of the money will go to the League Operator. Very little if anything comes back to the players. You room will lose money as it will have to provide free table time and I doubt that you will make it up in drinks sold.

The team that does go to Vegas would be better off going on their own if that is the only motivation for playing.

I'm sorry sir you do not know what you are speaking of. We have 5 different divisions that are exclusive to one bar.

Less than $7 dollars per team (on a $30 weekly due set) go to the LO.

Bars do NOT have to give free table time. The APA in no way is supposed to entice bars. In fact they tell bars not to. It's on the bar owner to give free table time or not.

Please, before you make statements make sure you know what you are talking about.

 

[SCCues]

IMO it lends itself to sandbagging. In our league the players have it down to a science.

It's exactly the same way where I play. The successful teams have sandbagging down, as you put it, to a science and they win the tournaments consistently because they have low and middle handicapped players who play better than their handicap. Teams who let their players play and try to improve can't win because the sandbagging teams just run through them with their under handicapped players. It's sad that people are always trying to beat the system and I don't see a way to control it or stop the sandbagging.

 

[ScottW]

What do you think of APA league play? Trying to get this rolling at my room and I'm questioning some of the "rules & regulations".

I know the prizes, etc. are great but what do you, the players, think about it?

I assume you meant to type "I know the prizes AREN'T great" there, which makes more sense.

When you say "my room" what do you mean - your regular haunt, or are you the owner/operator of the room in question? Let's assume you're the owner, what with the site URL under your profile name.

Like others have said, APA's great for socializing and the more "casual" players - and there are far more casual players than the serious-type players out there.

Also like others have said, you don't have to give away free table time if you don't want to. Some venues offer free time (even opening up bar boxes), others require the teams to pay the full amount (either table time or sinking quarters in bar boxes), and others find a happy medium (a buck or two extra per player each night, above the league fees, to cover table time).

Venues here in the Denver area vary - some open the tables but charge an extra buck or two. Some don't do anything on the tables (it's all quarters) but offer a free "half-time" drink to each player - wait staff brings around a sheet of paper, team fills it out with the drinks the team players want, and then you get those drinks.

As the owner, you can do whatever you want in this regard - whatever is the best balance between bringing in some $$$ from the teams playing, and motivating MORE teams to play out of your venue.

Also, don't count on your local league operator to bring the teams in for you. You'll really want to market this yourself to your regulars - be proactive in getting people to form up teams and play in your venue.

 

[TheBook]

I'm sorry sir you do not know what you are speaking of. We have 5 different divisions that are exclusive to one bar.

Less than $7 dollars per team (on a $30 weekly due set) go to the LO.

Bars do NOT have to give free table time. The APA in no way is supposed to entice bars. In fact they tell bars not to. It's on the bar owner to give free table time or not.

Please, before you make statements make sure you know what you are talking about.

Where does the other $23 go. Does the bar get any money from the $30 or the remaining $23? All I am suggesting is that if he wants to tie up all of his tables for a in house league to make some money he would be better off having his own league and pocketing a few dollars for himself. If he just wants one team then the APA is a good way to go.

I have played in the APA on and off for the last 17 years and have never paid for table time. In fact there has never been a league that I have played on that had to pay for it.

 

[catscradle]

...

I have played in the APA on and off for the last 17 years and have never paid for table time. In fact there has never been a league that I have played on that had to pay for it.

That is accepted practice in my area too, but not a requirement. However, the bars/pool rooms wouldn't be doing it if they didn't get it back in drinks bought or at least figure the people involved in the league will frequent them another time. Also don't forget that the presence of warm bodies playing pool in a place will draw other customers who don't even know what the APA is and have no interest in it. An empty parking lot can drive away potential customers all by itself; people who enjoy pool but feel they don't play particularly well want to get lost in a crowd, not play in an empty room.

 

[txspaderz]

The rest of the weekly dues go to St. Louis to the National Office.

I agree I've been in the APA for 4 years and I've never paid for table time. I just didn't want the OP thinking that he had to give free table time if running an APA league out of his establishment.

 

[klockdoc]

If you only want one team that will be a travel team than the APA will be good for guys that want a night out and play just to play.

If you want to do it as a in house league than I would not consider it. All of the money will go to the League Operator. Very little if anything comes back to the players. You room will lose money as it will have to provide free table time and I doubt that you will make it up in drinks sold.

The team that does go to Vegas would be better off going on their own if that is the only motivation for playing.

I don't believe I totally agree with that statement. First off, if you have an "In House League", you are the League Operator, therefore, you collect fees for the table time and operation out of the weekly dues.

Unless you are a very small pool room, it would be beneficial to you to allow the players to continue on "free" time on the tables to keep them in the room. Most times, that is why you have a league night on that specific night. Because it is slow and you need people. The longer people stay in your place, the more they purchase (generally).

Sorry, The Book. I didn't read your post about free table time you had always received until after posting this.

I will give you an example. If you had an in-house league with 25 teams, each paid $50.00 per night to play (8 players) for a 16 week session, you would have $20,000 to work with for the playoffs and fees and paperwork.

Used to be that a League Operator for the APA, if he/she had 100 teams, they would make $50K per year. And, APA still got their portion. Probably more now days.

Oh, and by the way, our in-house league, under similar conditions posted above, paid $10,000 for 1st place. Just about the same you get for going to Vegas and having to pay for the trip.

I personally like in-house leagues. JMO...

 

[Snapshot9]

Points

Well, from your example (inhouse league) and with paydowns (2nd through ?), how much does the LO come out with?

I have always wondered about 100% payback leagues how the LO comes out with anything for all his/her time.

Many inhouse leagues here run 22 weeks at $4 fees per week, and many are just 90% payback.

The APA is a 'participants' league, not a playing league. They just want lots of people playing, they are not concerned so much with quality of play, or competition levels. The rank of the leagues, and always has been, is APA, Valley (VNEA), and BCA with BCA being the toughest, which is not hard to figure out once you have knowledge of each of their handicapping systems.

 

[juggler314]

I agree with most of the things you are saying, however, if you are playing a good player and you're being "safed" most of the time your innings will be high. This will effect your handicap. You may be able to run out everytime - if you get a shot. But if you don't get a shot you probably won't make a ball - thus another inning. I can play a safe and you would never know.

Exactly the problem, while the rules say you should mark everything a safe if the player appears to not be attempting to make a ball. They also mention in the sportsmanship section that if you play a safe and it's not obvious you should tell the scorekeepers that it was a defensive shot - that's exactly the problem with sandbagging, plenty of people (myself included) can play shots that seem to just be missed shots but were in reality safeties. Additionally, if you safety me and I manage to kick out of it, but am not actually trying to make the ball I am kicking at it should also be marked as a safety (so if I have an easy kick to a side pocket or something that would not be a safety, but if I'm simply trying to contact a tied up ball to avoid giving up ball in hand - this would be marked as a defensive shot).

I guess most of the things I don't like relate to what someone else pointed out - the APA is simply not the place for serious players trying to play serious pool. The rules are all tilted to the "even out the game" way - that's why the table is not open if only one ball is made on the break - if it was it would be a much larger advantage to the stronger player. It is also why there is no pushout in the 9 ball format, it is also why you do not need to make called shots (it comes up that sometimes a very unskilled player just bangs in 3 balls accidentally and ends up with position on the 8 - which circles back to my "only having to win 2 games is a bit off" bit).

That's why I said in my original post that I "have to remind myself it's just a social hang out thing" or something like that - I tend to view the singles competitions more seriously - team...it's a crapshoot. Jude pointed out that at the national level you might as well flip coins to see who wins the matches. My team that went to vegas got there in the craziest fashion - first off a 2 on my team was critical to the process - beating a 7 in tri-annual competition (and making a lucky win as the 7 had a careless 8 ball scratch to lose the match) and also winning at the city championship level. I am proud that my team came together at just the right time to win these matches and get us to vegas, but i'm very aware we had some incredibly lucky rolls (both ways - we gave up a stupid ball in hand when we were pretty much out in the final game to go to vegas and similarly got handed back ball in hand a game later to win the match on just an 8 ball).

anyway...

 

[juggler314]

It's exactly the same way where I play. The successful teams have sandbagging down, as you put it, to a science and they win the tournaments consistently because they have low and middle handicapped players who play better than their handicap. Teams who let their players play and try to improve can't win because the sandbagging teams just run through them with their under handicapped players. It's sad that people are always trying to beat the system and I don't see a way to control it or stop the sandbagging.

Yes at the local level it's impossible to police - it has to be an honor system and when matches are watched or refereed it's usually at too late a point to do much about it.

It is the 3/4/5 SL players that make or break teams as far as sandbagging goes - a 6 sandbagging to keep from going to a 7 is not nearly as valuable to a team as a 3 that is sandbagging to keep from going up to a 4. Because the handicapping is weighted to the low end a 3, who only ever needs to win 2 games, that is underhandicapped is the mythical secret weapon - if you have more than one of them it's a killer.

Before this years national competition I was looking around for advice on going and one person who managed to get his team to a fairly high place (16th I think) said they got knocked out by a team with 2 7's and 6 3's. The 7's were very very good and the 3's were all underhandicapped. A team like that would be very hard to beat and it's apparent just from the team makeup that it is being done on purpose - knowing nothing else about the team other than the composition of SL's (77333333) and the fact that they are going to vegas it would be hard to believe there isn't active sandbagging going on. You simply can't keep winning and winning and not have 3's go up.

 

[juggler314]

That is accepted practice in my area too, but not a requirement. However, the bars/pool rooms wouldn't be doing it if they didn't get it back in drinks bought or at least figure the people involved in the league will frequent them another time. Also don't forget that the presence of warm bodies playing pool in a place will draw other customers who don't even know what the APA is and have no interest in it. An empty parking lot can drive away potential customers all by itself; people who enjoy pool but feel they don't play particularly well want to get lost in a crowd, not play in an empty room.

I think this really depends on where you play in the country. It's pretty uncommon in manhattan for bars to open the table up, a few do, but these are usually bars that are so uterrly dead on monday or tuesday nights that they must own their bars free and clear or have very long term leases to be able to afford it. Also in manhattan many teams lease tables and aren't free to just open them up for free play as the leasing company expects a certain return.

I don't play in any bars that have parking lots or many bars with more than one table, or many bars that don't require a short stick for at least a bit of the table...

 

[juggler314]

I don't believe I totally agree with that statement. First off, if you have an "In House League", you are the League Operator, therefore, you collect fees for the table time and operation out of the weekly dues.

Unless you are a very small pool room, it would be beneficial to you to allow the players to continue on "free" time on the tables to keep them in the room. Most times, that is why you have a league night on that specific night. Because it is slow and you need people. The longer people stay in your place, the more they purchase (generally).

Sorry, The Book. I didn't read your post about free table time you had always received until after posting this.

I will give you an example. If you had an in-house league with 25 teams, each paid $50.00 per night to play (8 players) for a 16 week session, you would have $20,000 to work with for the playoffs and fees and paperwork.

Used to be that a League Operator for the APA, if he/she had 100 teams, they would make $50K per year. And, APA still got their portion. Probably more now days.

Oh, and by the way, our in-house league, under similar conditions posted above, paid $10,000 for 1st place. Just about the same you get for going to Vegas and having to pay for the trip.

I personally like in-house leagues. JMO...

I have never operated a League, but from what I can tell...your numbers are off. The APA nationally makes most of it's money off of the annual dues - I'm fairly certain there are over 100K paying APA members - just in annual dues that's over 2M - they pay out only about 1.4M between the two tournaments - and of course have many other costs (HQ, staff, etc, running the tournaments). They also pocket all the money from singles qualifier boards. LO's pay a fee for running the league.

I am pretty sure the way it works is LO's have a set fairly small fee/year, and they are free to charge whatever they want for weekly play. Meaning my LO...makes a pretty decent chunk of change for running the league...but like I said it's speculative.

 

[juggler314]

I still like the APA

Uh...just in case anyone thought I hated the APA. I've been playing every season for over 5 years, continue to do so even though I feel frustrated with many aspects of it. Mostly because I like the social aspect and it's another pool community to be part of. There are roughly 1,000 APA players in manhattan, and while some of them also participate in more serious leagues at the various pool halls around the area, most of them don't and I like being part of as many pool playing communities as I can.

The one thing I vigorously agree with as far as the APA goes is that it definitely attracts people to pool - it's the blue collar league, taking all comers. It can be intimidating to enter an "advanced" league at a pool hall. Even the beginner 8 ball league where I play has a certain barrier to entry, a true beginner is most likely going to get destroyed for a while. But in the APA 2's generally get matched up with other 2's or 3's and at least they don't get wiped out in just a few minutes And the team support goes a long way to moving people up the ladder from beginner to intermediate.

 

[IbeAnEngineer]

One Question?

The rest of the weekly dues go to St. Louis to the National Office.

I agree I've been in the APA for 4 years and I've never paid for table time. I just didn't want the OP thinking that he had to give free table time if running an APA league out of his establishment.

Are you SURE that the rest of the remaining 23 dollars goes to St Louis? Or, is that what your league operator told you? Does anyone on the board know what St Louis gets per match from the league dues? The reason I am asking these questions is to get you to look into it a bit more. You will probably find out the LO is pocketing a LOT more than you think or is advertised.

 

[txspaderz]

Are you SURE that the rest of the remaining 23 dollars goes to St Louis? Or, is that what your league operator told you? Does anyone on the board know what St Louis gets per match from the league dues? The reason I am asking these questions is to get you to look into it a bit more. You will probably find out the LO is pocketing a LOT more than you think or is advertised.

I'm 99.9% positive. I don't want to say specifics.