APA team question

[Andrew Manning]

And the LO is a seven who has rough patches and is temporarily a 6. That's brutal for 8's or 9's to fade.

Don't believe that for a minute, you're stealing if you get Roland to play you even.

I guess the most practical answer is if you have 2 wins already and a third is sure to win the evening,
you go ahead and do your 9/2 pair.

I'd go with different thinking and play Keith every night, because unlike your other 4 matches, during his you might learn something. Also because he's sick of not getting to play very much.

Then again, my attitude toward APA was always "forget trying to win, I'm here to play pool and get better at pool", which is a great attitude if you want to get better at pool, but (shockingly) very ineffective if you place much importance on winning.

-Andrew

 

[uwate]

the strongest 9ball team I have been on was 9/6/5/4/3/3/2/2. Our two's were taught how to do a stop ball shot from fairly close to the object ball and to execute that shot for bih if they could stick someone up against a ball and shoot the object ball down table. This team went to nationals and placed 33rd and really was well positioned that year to actually go farther than 33rd.

The nine skvl though is a wide range and there are many nines that are battling around 60-80% win % and for that type of nine things are much trickier. I have seen quite a few teams with this type of nine and they usually do not have the legs to make it through cities or if they do, go very far at nationals. Not saying its not possible, but it will take the stars aligning pretty tight for it to happen. Its really hard for a team to get 9 points out of 23 used up in one match if that 9 cannot be relied upon to bring 15+ points the majority of the times they get up.

That said, it might be difficult for a team to go far if the nine cannot ship the win and win big most of the times they are launched. There are many many 9s in apa that can accomplish this. Alex Olinger's team won nationals a few years back with this type of lineup. Most of the bottom 32 at singles nationals for the nineball 9 board would be able to carry this type of team. Heres a pic of the 2013 bottom 32 board at singles nationals. You can see the caliber of player that im talking about that is capable of carrying a team of small numbers through cities and deep into nationals:

 

[CreeDo]

It doesn't matter how you do it; the rules specifically state that breaking safe is
not legal. If you can break safe without anyone noticing that you are doing it intentionally, you won't get
called on it, but you'll still be breaking the rule.

I try to just be honest and stick to the rules so if the wording says you can't do it, then I won't try.
I notice though that breaking at my usual speed often leaves the 1 ball in the middle of the head rail.
If the wing ball (and friends) refuses to drop then my opponent doesn't have to love what he's left with.

The APA handicap system is designed to make every match a 50-50 proposition. I have often wondered if just putting people up randomly would not be just as successful as trying to "match up."

I remember reading some interesting scientific thingy (probably on here, probably by bob jewett)
where they calculated the odds of an infinitely horrible player trying to hit a very hard shot by consciously
aiming at it, vs. just randomly hitting the cue ball in that direction. Hitting randomly actually had a better
chance of making the shot because the horrible player's attempt to send the cue ball in a certain direction
almost guaranteed it would go anywhere EXCEPT that direction.

So maybe there's strength in randomness.

I think having actual stats of the outcomes of X rank vs Y rank, nationwide, would be quite useful.
It might be that certain ranks are just a poor match for each other. Maybe a 6 beats a 4 much more
reliably than a 5 beats a 3, and so on.

Don't believe that for a minute, you're stealing if you get Roland to play you even.

Haha no, I know I got him. Playing 7 vs. 7, I pretty much always won.
But they bumped me to a 9, and him down to a 6, and I don't know if I win that.

I'd go with different thinking and play Keith every night, because unlike your other 4 matches, during his you might learn something. Also because he's sick of not getting to play very much.

Hell, keith can come learn something from me.
Juuuust kidding. When he's on, it's pretty scary.

I seldom get to play anymore either. We considered going to 8 ball to bump me back to a 7,
but everyone likes 9b too much. So I'm pretty much the waterboy now lol.

-Andrew[/QUOTE]

the strongest 9ball team I have been on was 9/6/5/4/3/3/2/2. Our two's were taught how to do a stop ball shot from fairly close to the object ball and to execute that shot for bih if they could stick someone up against a ball and shoot the object ball down table. This team went to nationals and placed 33rd and really was well positioned that year to actually go farther than 33rd.

I'd love some twos that reliably did stuff like this. I try teaching some and with a few it sticks
but others just don't really care. If they cared they wouldn't be twos probably.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Haha no, I know I got him. Playing 7 vs. 7, I pretty much always won.
But they bumped me to a 9, and him down to a 6, and I don't know if I win that.

Hell, keith can come learn something from me.
Juuuust kidding. When he's on, it's pretty scary.

I seldom get to play anymore either. We considered going to 8 ball to bump me back to a 7,
but everyone likes 9b too much. So I'm pretty much the waterboy now lol.

Just trap him into playing a few power stroke shots. He thinks he's good at them, but he's actually terrible at them, and that always gets him to lose his head.

Keith's pretty solid. I should have said, unlike the other matches besides your own, you might learn something from his.

Come out and play in the Thursday tournament at First Break instead. Better tables, much better players, better rules, and you're guaranteed not 1 but 2 matches for your entry fee.

-Andrew

 

[uwate]

chemistry is really important. The twos have to trust the nines judgement and listen and practice defense. You are right that most 2s do not do this but that is why the teams who can field low numbers who play defense are very dangerous, esp on the bar box where ball in hand can mean 3-4 ball runs for even 2s.

 

[trob]

show me that rule and good luck trying to call that on me lol you have to make I believe 2 balls hit a rail..I can break soft and do that with out a problem.

Safe breaking is entirely illegal in the APA. Players are required to break as hard as they can with control.

 

[Banks]

show me that rule and good luck trying to call that on me lol you have to make I believe 2 balls hit a rail..I can break soft and do that with out a problem.

"3. Breaking - To be a legal break, players must break
from behind the head string, the head ball must be
struck first and at least four object balls must be driven
to the rails or a ball must be pocketed. The cue ball may
not be shot into a rail before the rack. Failure to strike
the 1-ball first does not result in a foul. If the break does
not qualify as legal, the balls are reracked and broken
by the same player. If the break does not qualify as legal
and results in a scratch, the balls are reracked and
broken by the opposite player. THE RACK MUST BE
STRUCK BEFORE A FOUL CAN OCCUR. Breaking safe
or soft is not allowed. The League Operator may make
judgments and issue penalties to teams and players who
are not breaking hard. Breaking just hard enough to
comply with this rule is not a guarantee against
penalties. Remember, break as hard as you can with
control."

9b break rules

 

[9Ballr]

This comes up all the time in our league so I thought I'd see how other teams handle it.
Say your team has a very strong player (7/8/9) who almost never loses,
and a very weak player (1/2/3) who almost never wins.
In order to for the strong player to shoot, the weak player always has to shoot also, or else the team can't make numbers (i.e. they exceed the 23 limit).
Optionally, they both can sit and the team can just play their middle-of-the-field players.
So what do you think is better?
Play the 9 + 2, for one guaranteed win and one guaranteed loss.
Play a couple of 4/5/6's instead for a semi-random outcome... might be 2 wins, 2 losses, one of each.

Just ask the weak 1, 2, 3 player to leave the team and come back in a year or two and find a 4, 5, 6 player, they're not hard to find.

 

[ridinda9]

i shouldn't even tell ya how to do this, cuz ya gonna end up doing it to me. . . .

You're s/l1 or s/l2 SHOULD lose their individual match - while winning the overall match for you.
Don't match your s/l9 even, let him play a s/l7 and slay him. Let your midrange players play their best games. By the beginning of the last match, you SHOULD be in the mid-high 40point range. Now you can play that s/l1, and almost every ball they make is equivalent to a match point. They don't need to win, they just need to put you over 51 (50 if you have 3 wins already). Be sure to stroke their ego with much hootin, hollerin, and backslappin, with a few "you did it"s mixed in. It AINT sandbagging if they're shooting their unskilled little hearts out trying to make those points- it ain't THEIR fault that you're playing them for the (winning) loss ;-)

 

[ridinda9]

Just ask the weak 1, 2, 3 player to leave the team and come back in a year or two and find a 4, 5, 6 player, they're not hard to find.

Better ask the s/l9 to leave too, cuz without that s/l1 or 2, he ain't shooting. . . . That's the point of the thread

 

[trob]

I believe it says MAY result...that's not a foul to me. we have a few 9's that soft break all the time. I don't because I just can't seem to get a consistent result. I was incorrect about the 2 balls hitting a rail..I see it's four. again..good luck calling that on me if four balls hit the rail.

"3. Breaking - To be a legal break, players must break
from behind the head string, the head ball must be
struck first and at least four object balls must be driven
to the rails or a ball must be pocketed. The cue ball may
not be shot into a rail before the rack. Failure to strike
the 1-ball first does not result in a foul. If the break does
not qualify as legal, the balls are reracked and broken
by the same player. If the break does not qualify as legal
and results in a scratch, the balls are reracked and
broken by the opposite player. THE RACK MUST BE
STRUCK BEFORE A FOUL CAN OCCUR. Breaking safe
or soft is not allowed. The League Operator may make
judgments and issue penalties to teams and players who
are not breaking hard. Breaking just hard enough to
comply with this rule is not a guarantee against
penalties. Remember, break as hard as you can with
control."

9b break rules

 

[trob]

There's a lot of truth in the above posts. We won tri cups thanks to our mid players. I only played once and our 7 only played once. We kept saving me for the 5th match but it never once got that far. Our 3 and 4's played lights out. As good as they were playing I wouldn't wanted to have to make 75 balls before they hit there number!

 

[Banks]

I believe it says MAY result...that's not a foul to me. we have a few 9's that soft break all the time. I don't because I just can't seem to get a consistent result. I was incorrect about the 2 balls hitting a rail..I see it's four. again..good luck calling that on me if four balls hit the rail.

I tried it once.. I think it was towards the end of my first year. My opponent said no can do and reracked - I hadn't read the rule. If I don't feel like dealing with it, I'll just rake em and make you re-break. That move can go both ways.

 

[Maniac]

There's a lot of truth in the above posts. We won tri cups thanks to our mid players. I only played once and our 7 only played once. We kept saving me for the 5th match but it never once got that far. Our 3 and 4's played lights out. As good as they were playing I wouldn't wanted to have to make 75 balls before they hit there number!

The 3's and 4's are the ones that worry me the most.

Maniac

 

[lorider]

in our last 9 bakk tri cups we pretty much cruized to the finals. in the finals lo and behold our good shooting 3 and 4 played like shit and we lost the 1st 2 matches.

the opposimg team only had 5 players there so i knew exactly what they could play, 3,4 an a 5. we had 2,3 ,4, 5 and an 8 left. i dont recall what the score was but i knew we were in serious trouble. i knew their 3 and their 5 but i did not know their 4 so i asked a friend who knew everybody, found out he was a weak 4.


it was my turn to throw and i haver never thrown my 8 blind but felt i had no choice as far behind as we were. after i threw him sure enough they dumped there 3. our 8 won 18-2. we were stil behind by 4 points.

they threw their 5 who is pretty good and still had a weak 4 left. we had a good 5, good 2, weak 3 nd a weak 4 left.

my co-captain" our 8" and i discussed our options. he wanted to throw our good 2 and then put me "our good 5' against their weak 4. at 1st i said ok but had 2nd thoughts.

i told him we are still behind by 4 points and its highly unlikely our 2 will beat their 5and we dont need to dig a deeper hole for ourselves. he said yea but you oughts blow their 4 away. i said if he blows our 2 away and i blow their 4 away we still lose.

he asked what do you want to do. i said i woll play their 5 and try to at least get us even " was pretty sure i could win 12-8 " and let our good 2 play their weak 4. he said we got room for our 3 against their 4. i said i like our good 2 going to 18 vs, our weak 3 going to 25.

he said lets see what you do and take it from there. well i won 12-8 so wewere tied up.. we discussed some more and he said yea lets put up our 2. well she won so cities here we come.

bad thing is we lost our 2. she just decided to quit playing pool.

moral of this long story is sometimes dumping a low player against a high player can backfire. i dont think our 8 could have beat their 4 or 5 18-2. i also dont think our 2 could have beat their 3 and i know she could not beat their 5. but i coulda beat any of them.

 

[trob]

I tried it once.. I think it was towards the end of my first year. My opponent said no can do and reracked - I hadn't read the rule. If I don't feel like dealing with it, I'll just rake em and make you re-break. That move can go both ways.

My argument would be simple. Who are you to say how hard I feel I can break with control?

 

[Banks]

My argument would be simple. Who are you to say how hard I feel I can break with control?

Unless you're a 2 or below(or 100 years old), only 4 balls hitting the rail should happen when you miscue or get *-racked. Come on, you know as well as I do that a 9 knows the difference between a soft break that barely clears the minimum ball requirement and an actual break. Maybe we've got different ideas of what a soft break is..

 

[lorider]

My argument would be simple. Who are you to say how hard I feel I can break with control?

it dont matter how hard or soft you break as long as it is a legal break. banks posted to you what a legal break is.

you can hit from smack em to blast em as long as ball falls or 4 balls hit a rail. no matter what kinda controlled break you use , if it dont fall within the above guidelines they can make you re break.

 

[Banks]

show me that rule and good luck trying to call that on me lol you have to make I believe 2 balls hit a rail..I can break soft and do that with out a problem.

"3. Breaking - ... Breaking safe
or soft is not allowed.

it dont matter how hard or soft you break as long as it is a legal break. banks posted to you what a legal break is.

you can hit from smack em to blast em as long as ball falls or 4 balls hit a rail. no matter what kinda controlled break you use , if it dont fall within the above guidelines they can make you re break.

According to the rule book, breaking soft is not allowed. At first he was trying to be say it wasn't in the rule book, now he's trying to act like he's a 9 that can only hit a controlled break at 5mph and I can't call him on it. I can and will.. all I have to do is rake em and tell him to try again.

 

[ideologist]

I believe it says MAY result...that's not a foul to me. we have a few 9's that soft break all the time. I don't because I just can't seem to get a consistent result. I was incorrect about the 2 balls hitting a rail..I see it's four. again..good luck calling that on me if four balls hit the rail.

Good luck making a safe break with 4 ball railing in 9-ball... Unless you're getting slug-racked