APBU Bans Players

[straybullet]

The question is WHAT possible benefit is there to WPA sanctioning when the players will walk anyway?

John

John,
How does the reverse benefit the IPT? This is where I am lost. What both sides are doing is making the players have to make this tough decision. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

For everybody that is saying "money talks and bullshit walks" you must remember that culturally in places such as Asia they are not going to think in those terms. They are more inclined to make their decisions based on honor and loyalty (in the long term), than on big dollar signs (in the short term). So internationally that immature attitude will not win many people over.

With the popularity of pool throughout Asia, it makes no sense to me why he would not want to work towards developing good relations within the international community. To me, this makes no sense as a business decision. If and when they lure the players from the Asian tours, what will that do to the momentum that pool has over there now? Admittedly I'm not running this thing, but if I was - I'd be smart enough to realize that there is more to be lost than gained by initially distancing my tour from the rest of the world. His attitude will come across as arrogant - which gets you nowhere in that part of the world. Anyone that has international business experience will tell you that you have to bridge a few cultural gaps to be effective in certain markets. It blows my mind that they don't realize this, or have someone advising them how to conduct business internationally. I'll ask you ,John. Am I missing something or am I reading too much into this? If I am let me know. I'm trying to understand this. You are a successful business person, and I know you understand my point. Why are they being like this? It doesn't make any sense. They are International, but not conducting themselves with an international mindset.

 

[Celtic]

John,
How does the reverse benefit the IPT? This is where I am lost. What both sides are doing is making the players have to make this tough decision. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

That is bull crap. Kevin Trudoe from day one has said he has no angst against any other organization out there. He is not the one putting these ultimatums out there. He is quite willing to allow the players of the IPT play any tournament they want to and has said such in his interview on BCC. It is the WPA and APBU and so many other organizations that are the ones putting out these restrictions and forcing the players to make the choice. The IPT has done nothing more then put some huge tournaments out there with huge purses and allow anyone who wanted to apply to attmept to get into the tour.

This forcing of the players hand is solely on the head of the WPA and the APBU. They are the ones that are scared of the competition and they are the ones putting out the ultimatum to their players forcing them to make the choice. The IPT has never put the players at odds with any other organization or limited where the IPT members could play. They have definately taken the upper hand in class and furthering this sport in this regard. I wonder how many people are truely surprised.

The WPA and APBU have made a move that can only fragment this sport and hurt it. WTG WPA, you guys are really looking out for this sport, great to have ya on our side. I would LOVE to see them justify this move to the fans and players, but that wont happen, they cannot come close to giving a positive reasonsing over this action. It is a vindictive attack attempting to destroy a rival organization and that is totally obvious.

 

[jjinfla]

And how much is baseball paying to Asia for sanctioning? Afterall there is a world championship being decided right now. And football? And Hockey? And Golf? And tennis? And soccer?

I have never watched Butamante, Reyes or Manalo play in person and I doubt if my world will be affected if I never see them play. It is their loss - not mine.

On with the games. Those who come will play and prosper. Those who stay home will always wonder if they "couda been somebody".

 

[Colin Colenso]

Hi Debra,
I've no intention to inflame here...just to try to try to make the explanation you asked for in your post. I may not have all the satisfactory answers but I'll try my best. See inserts below.

This is that "disastrous fallout" that Blackjack referred to in one of the other threads.

The IPT was always going to make waves, and threaten the WPA's credibilty / curent position of strength. I talked about this weeks ago. Whether this will e disastrous or good, is the matter of contention we are debating.

It is the IPT's choice not to be part of the WPA. By flatly refusing to pay the WPA sanctioning fee, they are showing that thye do not want to be part of the "International" community.

I think it only shows that KT doesn't see the value in cooperating with the WPA. After his first discussion with them, which sounded like more of a shakedown than a business proposition his attitude is understandable. I think KT has every intention of pleasing an international community of players. At this point, it is unclear how the WPA would play a vauable role in ensuring this.

I think that this forces the players to have to choose sides, which is unfair. These players just want to play (and make money). I don't view this as a strong arm tactic to harm players, it looks as if it is a show of unity in opposition to this tour. The players are caught in the middle. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Well you can't please all of the people all of the time. If the players suffer losses by joining the IPT, then this reduces KT's bargaining power with the players. The economic dynamincs of this make it likely that KT's interests are best served in the long run by finding a compromise. The IPT has already made efforts to avoid conflicts of dates and it has said it will not prevent IPT tour member from competing in other tours/events. These are compromises the WPA has not reciprocated.

Why doesn't this guy just pay the amount of the sanctioning? Supposedly he is a bejillionaire, why would it matter?

Principles and value for money! Remember, that according to WPA standards, 5% of money added would be the fee. This would come to over US$400,000 per year. More than the entire annual budget of the WPA. This is not pocket change. Fact is he could probably buy the necessary voting members of the WPA for less than this amount if he wanted to and become the president.

Is it because he wants to be the top guy and not have to answer to anybody?

If you committed $30+ million into your own business venture, into an industry which circulates one 10th of this amount annually, wouldn't you want to / expect to be the top guy?

I understand the fact that he has all this money and he can do whatever he wants to do, but that type of attitude wreaks of isolationism.

Are you a neocon? The proper word should be independence. He is maintaining the rights to control his own property. There are economic incentives for the IPT to develop cooperation with leagues and tournaments worldwide. I expect this will be phase 2 of his business plan. He just doesn't see the WPA as the perfect business partner to expand with at this stage.

I for one have offered to set up a qualifying tour in China to get Chinese players to the IPT qualifying event. This may be the biggest boon to Chinese pool the country has ever seen. I expect the same type of opportunities and expansion can be synergized around the world. Something the WPA could not provide enough incentive for in the past.

Wouldn't it be to his advantage to work with the WPA and be a leader in the community as opposed to thumbing his nose at them? From a business standpoint this makes absolutely no sense to me.

Well, what he is doing, and what he has done makes a lot of sense to me, as a professional in the sports marketing business and someone who has studied business and economics for years. There are several threads on AZ in the past year or so, before the birth of the IPT, regarding what it will take to advance the sport. I responded several times that the sport needed a king-pin entrepreneur with media / PR / marketing saavy. KT fills those requiements very well. The WPA does not. Perhaps the WPA will continue to play some role, but organizations structured in the way the WPA are, as bureaucratic underlings to the IOC have basically no chance of progessing sports to anywhere the levels we see in NFL, PGA, WTA, F1, FIFA, WWE and the like, which make their stars into millionaires and provide worldwide entertainment.

I would think that if he wanted to help the game of pool globally, that he would try to become a member of the community and try to improve it with his money, his connections, and his influence. If I am missing something here somebody please respectfully explain this to me with facts, not wishful thinking or woo-woo stuff that supports one side or the other. I'm just curious.

I hope that helped clarify.
Colin>~ Tired of typing!

 

[straybullet]

That is bull crap.

You may think its bull crap, but that's the reality. If you were a player on the APBU, you would lose no matter what option you decided to choose. That's unfair. The players are being pulled in both directions. Both sides are too busy posturing with each other to realize that. Saying its bull crap and pushing all of the blame on organizations that will be adversely affected by this doesn't solve anything. The APBU are doing what they feel is necessary for THEM to survive. What would you do if you were the APBU? Monetariliy, they cannot compete with Kevin Trudeau. Everybody knows that. Being arrogant about that will not win him friends in that part of the world. All of his money doesn't change the fact that pool is more popular in Asia than it is here. Obviously he needs to find a way to tap into that instead of driving that business away. I'm asking someone to make some sense out of that so I can understand what the IPT is doing from international business standpoint. It looks to me as an outsider looking in, that Mr. Trudeau has fragmented himself away from the rest of the sport. If I'm wrong about that (from an international business standpoint) then explain it to me. As I said before, to me it makes no sense.

 

[Snapshot9]

Okay ...

You may think its bull crap, but that's the reality. If you were a player on the APBU, you would lose no matter what option you decided to choose. That's unfair. The players are being pulled in both directions. Both sides are too busy posturing with each other to realize that. Saying its bull crap and pushing all of the blame on organizations that will be adversely affected by this doesn't solve anything. The APBU are doing what they feel is necessary for THEM to survive. What would you do if you were the APBU? Monetariliy, they cannot compete with Kevin Trudeau. Everybody knows that. Being arrogant about that will not win him friends in that part of the world. All of his money doesn't change the fact that pool is more popular in Asia than it is here. Obviously he needs to find a way to tap into that instead of driving that business away. I'm asking someone to make some sense out of that so I can understand what the IPT is doing from international business standpoint. It looks to me as an outsider looking in, that Mr. Trudeau has fragmented himself away from the rest of the sport. If I'm wrong about that (from an international business standpoint) then explain it to me. As I said before, to me it makes no sense.

From an International standpoint, he is setting precedents, something
other Pool organizations should have done in the past for the sport and
the players, but have mostly just given 'lip service' to. He will establish
an organization that will show them 'the way' that the sport should be.
It is still in infancy right now, it needs time to unfold into a full blown
organization. As it develops, it will be apparent to other organizations,
that the its 'us or them' attitude will just be detrimental to their own
organizations, and they will be moved to a new spirit of cooperation.
But, at that time, KT will have leverage then, and have the power to
exercise it, by affecting these other organizations with the rules, format,
and benefits for the players involved. His payouts go way down the line
where a good player is almost going to be guaranteed getting at least
$6,300 for showing up, plus one heck of a lot more if they play good.
Country loyalty may pull at the Asian and Filapino players some, but in
the end, they will play where they have the best chance of making money,
and the IPT offers a better chance of a return of investment in their time
and expenses than the other competing tours do.

The players only have to ask themselves 1 question:
Do I want to eat at McDonalds again tonight or at a nice steak house?

 

[onepocketchump]

John,
How does the reverse benefit the IPT? This is where I am lost. What both sides are doing is making the players have to make this tough decision. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

For everybody that is saying "money talks and bullshit walks" you must remember that culturally in places such as Asia they are not going to think in those terms. They are more inclined to make their decisions based on honor and loyalty (in the long term), than on big dollar signs (in the short term). So internationally that immature attitude will not win many people over.

With the popularity of pool throughout Asia, it makes no sense to me why he would not want to work towards developing good relations within the international community. To me, this makes no sense as a business decision. If and when they lure the players from the Asian tours, what will that do to the momentum that pool has over there now? Admittedly I'm not running this thing, but if I was - I'd be smart enough to realize that there is more to be lost than gained by initially distancing my tour from the rest of the world. His attitude will come across as arrogant - which gets you nowhere in that part of the world. Anyone that has international business experience will tell you that you have to bridge a few cultural gaps to be effective in certain markets. It blows my mind that they don't realize this, or have someone advising them how to conduct business internationally. I'll ask you ,John. Am I missing something or am I reading too much into this? If I am let me know. I'm trying to understand this. You are a successful business person, and I know you understand my point. Why are they being like this? It doesn't make any sense. They are International, but not conducting themselves with an international mindset.

First the business end: Kevin needs and wants a vehicle to advertise Natural Cures to the couple hundred million American and Canadian viewers that aren't watching his infomercials about it. The easiest vehicle with the least amount of obstacles is pool. This is a sport/pastime that is pervasive in our culture and enjoys decent ratings in just about any time slot. No one controls it, no one owns it, yet. He figures to get enough top notch players to produce good tv and he will. With the Hall of Famers he can MARKET, MARKET, MARKET their accomplishments and MAKE everyone else who is playing seem as though they have to measure up to the pool greats. He doesn't need a unknown from Japan when he has Machine Gun Lou and the Rifleman and Captain Hook. He doesn't even need Efren Reyes who is virtually unknown in the USA. But, truthfully, he doesn't even need really good pool players to make a television show, BallBreakers proves that.

Now the cultural side: I know that the popular thinking is that Asians do everything based on honor but it has been my experience that plenty of Asians base their decisions on money and are willing to be dishonorable if it makes them more money. Perhaps this is not the norm but I suspect that survival instincts trump honorable intentions more often than most of us would like to believe. Every pool player wants to be the very best and have all of the accolades and rewards that are supposed to come with being the very best. Being #1 on the IPT Tour may not make one the very best in the world but it is definitely a strong accomplishment that is probably going to be rewarded with fame and fortune. Kevin's stated intention is to provide a platform for players to improve themselves though the use of their skills. If you want to add a spiritual motivation to this then it is up to each player to choose the path that is best suited to them. Kevin is providing an opportuinty which goes alongside the existing ones. In truth, they can and probably will run in harmony, but in the case of bans and such, each player has the right to choose freely.

This is not so much about winning people over as it is about business that goes beyond the level where pool currently resides. The only people that Kevin needs to concern himself with are those that can put his product, pool competitions, in front of millions of eyeballs with credit cards. Unless the WPA or anyone else can bring something of real value to the table they don't have a place at it.

John

 

[jjinfla]

Well I suppose that is what Kevin Trudeau gets for being so nice and opening up the tournament to everyone. What would people have said if he had limited the tournament to Citizens of the USA?

Efren is guaranteed $30,000 for showing up and the WPA/APBU wants to prevent him from playing. But if he stays home I am sure the WPA and APBU will make it up to him.

 

[onepocketchump]

"For someonw with som much capacity for speculation, conspiracy theories, persecution ".

LMAO.

" speculation"
KT makes claims for products that he cant back up with facts. Thats why he is off the airwaves.

"conspiracy theories"
KT claims the Govt, the drug companies, the food industry, the medical profession, etc are all in a conspiracy to make and keep people sick- then only to deny them a cure!

" persecution"
KT should never have gone to jail. It was all the result of an over zealous prosecutor. The reason he has been kicked off TV is because EVERYBODY is against him. LOL


Give me a break!

G...........

Yeah, I kind of figured that this would be the best you could come up with. It sounds like the only difference between you and KT is millions of dollars. Are you jealous?

Keep your head in the sand. It's safer for you down there.

John

 

[Colin Colenso]

It makes no more sense to say that the IPT should unite with the WPA as it does to say that Wallmart should unite with K-Mart. They are potential adversaries / competitors.

They may find a confluence of opportunity, and combine forces, as some companies do, but they may also continue to confront one another.

The end result, as the free market has continued to display for centuries, is a likely better model succeeding.

Even if the IPT fails, they will provide many lessons to future developers of the game. Take a look at the promo on their home page for example. Take a note WPA, that is what good production looks like. Any of you ever produced or overseen the production of a video. Any of you ever sold a sponsorship over 30k? Made a deal with a network TV station that wasn't approached by someone else first, or didn't come to you?

Fact is, if the WPA was an events company, it would have gone out of business long ago. What is it? It is essentially a political organization. It survives through its association with the IOC and WCBS as best I can determine.

Such organizations are not effective in developing sports business in my experience. There are plenty of successfull organizations in sport to back up my position. The nay sayers don't have any case studies to support their opinions, so far as I have seen. Thier opinions seem to be based on airy-fairy concepts of unity...reeking of post-modenistic marxianism. urghh

 

[DaveK]

Well I suppose that is what Kevin Trudeau gets for being so nice and opening up the tournament to everyone.

150 hand picked players, not 'everyone'.

Dave

 

[Celtic]

You may think its bull crap, but that's the reality.

What is bull crap is your claim that the IPT is making the players choose. It is not the IPT making the players choose sides. That is solely the blame of the WPA that has put out the ultimatum. Try actually reading AND quoting more then the first 4 words of a thread that explains the initial claim made in those 4 words next time. You put some responsibility over the forced choice on the IPT, you were wrong, and you got called on it. The only thing the IPT did to cause this factioning was come into existence and the WPA should get some humility and realize they are not the only kid who has the right to play in the sandbox. The bully tactics over this whole matter from the WPA since the IPT was announced have been very obvious. If you want to be a fangirl of a ineffective organization that now attempts to split this sport further into factions then be my guest but know that this is exactly what you are doing and everyone here can see it.

 

[Celtic]

It looks to me as an outsider looking in, that Mr. Trudeau has fragmented himself away from the rest of the sport. If I'm wrong about that (from an international business standpoint) then explain it to me. As I said before, to me it makes no sense.

The WPA is nothing more then a protection racket for pool. They are akin to the mafia comming into someones store and demanding money for their services, which amount to nothing more then not robbing the business and driving away the customers themselves. They offer a service that is worthless, it does NOTHING, and they want hundreds of thousands of dollars for this nothing. Kevin simply decided he was not going to be strongarmed by a organization that is a thinly veiled protection racket and in so doing the WPA protection racket has now put into effect their repercussions much like a couple thugs comming into a mom and pop store and smashing the place up with baseball bats. Only the IPT is doing their attack with actions such as what lead to this thread among other things such as Mr Anderson's letter that was little more then a personal attack on KT. They have definately decided to take the route of the gutter in their very puiblic battle against the IPT and I dont see how in the world they can actually sit there and think this is a smart move. The WPA is loosing ALOT of respect in the pool world and will lose alot more if they keep up with this strong arming policy.

 

[Colin Colenso]

150 hand picked players, not 'everyone'.

Dave

5 of the 9 million on offer is open to everyone via two of the 6 events, the US and World Championships.

That's about 3 times more than that on offer at all WPA sactioned tournaments around the world, many of which are extremely hard or financially inefficient to enter.

 

[Timberly]

Timberly,
From what I can decifer from Dr. Dissent's words, remember he only posted the APBU notice, he didn't write it, is that he seems to have a balanced and realistic insight into what is going on. I suspect he is involved in the system and it could be risky for him to say what he is saying under his own name.

I think he has made some intelligent contributions, and I hope he continues.

Colin

You could be right, I read these rather quickly when I'm at work but it appeared to me that he was making the announcement. Too many people come on here stirring up controversy hiding behind an alias... Going under the asssumption that he was announcing it, I found it cowardly to hide behind an alias. If what you say is correct, then fine whatever, I'm just really sick of the whole damn thing. The sport is never going to get anywhere with everyone wanting a piece for themselves & refusing to work together. Ya'll duke it out, I'm done reading these issues... let me know when all these different organizations can figure how to work together to better pool.

 

[DaveK]

5 of the 9 million on offer is open to everyone via two of the 6 events, the US and World Championships.
QUOTE]


OK, I sit corrected. Most of the events are limited to 150 hand picked players.

Dave

 

[Colin Colenso]

5 of the 9 million on offer is open to everyone via two of the 6 events, the US and World Championships.
QUOTE]


OK, I sit corrected. Most of the events are limited to 150 hand picked players.

Dave

Hey Dave...good to see you taking it in your stride/seat

Actually only 2 of the events are only for the 150 players.

2 are the open events. There is a mention of the 150 players receiving seeding, which may mean guaranteed prizemoney that the open field has to progress into.

The other 2 events are the 43 player invitational next month as a top 40 (selected on the year's performance) event after the qualifying. (From memory)

The other event is the qualifying where 50 players will replace the lowest 50 ranked players on the tour. A reasonably open format for a tour I think. Certainly more easily accessible than the snooker tour was in the past.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Amen, Celtic. These groups making the threats are nothing but protection rackets in this case. These are THEIR players to dispose with as they please? So they feed and house them, educate their kids, and will fly them to the venue if only KT will grease their palms?

I think it's like SJM also said ... they're just trying to cut the legs out from a possible competitor. Kudos to KT for not trying to wrap anybody up, but let his tour succeed or fail on the merits, not on some divide-and-conquer strongarming game.

 

[straybullet]

What is bull crap is your claim that the IPT is making the players choose. It is not the IPT making the players choose sides. That is solely the blame of the WPA that has put out the ultimatum. Try actually reading AND quoting more then the first 4 words of a thread that explains the initial claim made in those 4 words next time. You put some responsibility over the forced choice on the IPT, you were wrong, and you got called on it. The only thing the IPT did to cause this factioning was come into existence and the WPA should get some humility and realize they are not the only kid who has the right to play in the sandbox. The bully tactics over this whole matter from the WPA since the IPT was announced have been very obvious. If you want to be a fangirl of a ineffective organization that now attempts to split this sport further into factions then be my guest but know that this is exactly what you are doing and everyone here can see it.

Celtic - It was an observation, not a claim. I asked very nicely for someone to respectfully correct me if I was wrong. Several people came in (John, Colin, and others) and provided some very insightful information and did an excellent job answering my questions. Thank you, guys. You call me a "fangirl" of the WPA? Whatever. Would you like for me to stick with a Marissa response of "great post, tap tap tap"??? I'm sorry I asked an intelligent question.

I'm with Timberly on this. This is just a bunch of people that can't get along and don't want to get along. Too many chefs trying to stir the soup. I don't care how much exposure or money this guy can provide. Can he create an atmosphere where everybody can sit down and try to work together instead of declaring war on each other? This is stupid. They should put me and Timberly in charge. We'd bust some heads and get results.

 

[Dr. Dissent]

Timberly,
From what I can decifer from Dr. Dissent's words, remember he only posted the APBU notice, he didn't write it, is that he seems to have a balanced and realistic insight into what is going on. I suspect he is involved in the system and it could be risky for him to say what he is saying under his own name.

Colin

Thank you Colin....