APBU Bans Players

[Colin Colenso]

It is not extortion.

$150,000 is 5 percent of the 3 million dollars Kevin Trudeau promissed for one event. For each event, the 5% would be applied.

Normal sanctioning fees are 5 percent of the added money. Sometimes you see tournaments indicating $10,000 or $15,000 added money. For $10,000 the sanctioning fees would be $500; for $15,000 the fee is $ 750.00.

Barry Behrman (recent US Open Tournament) should have paid $3,600 sanctioning fee to the WPA. This amount (paid) based on the $72,000 added money because of the full field of 256 players.

I agree, it's not extortion, it's simply asking too much for what is given in return.

Did the WPA offer attractive documentation of the benefits they deliver, as a normal business would? No, they demanded a price combined with a threat, as government type bureaucracies do. They prefer force over service. Little surprise KT took a backstep, quoting them as mafia like.

Does the WPA provide media coverage, PR expertise, channels of exposure? Certainly not in a professional or highly valuable sense. Compare this to a small event company, who has staff dedicated to media, PR, design etc. WPA is a committee, that implements very little. They scratch backs and cash in on the operators that actually organize and promote events.

If they come in with the IPT, they will seek to influence the format, title naming, event dates and all with lengthy time delays I suspect. The last this the IPT needs with so much to accomplish in a short time. Perhaps they'll demand equivalent women's, seniors, juniors, trickshots and wheelchair events to more fairly (politically correctly) distribute the moneys.

They may end up getting their sanctioning at reduced fees, just to save face, but KT holds the upper card in negotiation while his events offer many multiples in potential earnings than WPA sanctioned events around the world have to offer.

KT is adding close to 9 million this next year. All WPA sanctioned events probably total around 1 million. If they keep their 5% demand going, that is around US$450,000 in sanctioning fees. With this money alone he could payroll the top 10 players in the world and turn the WPA into a B grade league, as it will end up being if they try to ban all IPT members from the 9-Ball World Championships anyway.

Now if the WPA asks 50-100k per year, and doesn't interfere too much, then maybe a compromise will be made.

Just thinking aloud. I certainly want to see the existing tournaments continue and thrive if possible.

 

[Sweet Marissa]

It is not extortion.

$150,000 is 5 percent of the 3 million dollars Kevin Trudeau promissed for one event. For each event, the 5% would be applied.

Normal sanctioning fees are 5 percent of the added money. Sometimes you see tournaments indicating $10,000 or $15,000 added money. For $10,000 the sanctioning fees would be $500; for $15,000 the fee is $ 750.00.

Barry Behrman (recent US Open Tournament) should have paid $3,600 sanctioning fee to the WPA. This amount (paid) based on the $72,000 added money because of the full field of 256 players.

You say Barry should have paid... Does that mean the US Open wasn't santioned by the WPA? If not, then how is it that its players competed and weren't penalised? What does becoming sanctioned by the WPA do for its players anyway? And who are they to be doing so?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Easy to say than to do. APBU players will have to weigh the possible consequences. If they are making a good living with their regional tournaments and other world events, then they might think of not participating with the IPT. If on the other hand they cannot support themselves with their winnings, it may be wise to take a risk and play the IPT.

You're quite right Dr. Dissent.

This all comes down to supply and demand and future expectation. The dynamics of the situation are interesting, if not explosive.

My hope is that pool will gain greater exposure and appreciation worldwide through the IPT and that this will lead to greater opportunities for pool players worldwide once the power struggles regain some balance.

I know others think this is highly dangerous, and it may be for a portion of the status quo, but I believe it offers more positives than negatives. Time will tell.

 

[wvroadrunner]

Personally speaking, this "ban" enhances my horse's chances to advance in the IPT Tour.

Speaking as a pool enthusiast with a passion for the game/sport, I think it stinks.

Pool politics has been the stumbling block for many a pool player yesterday, today, and, according to this recent announcement, tomorrow.

Pool players are caught in the middle. Those in authority are enjoying six-figure salaries, and yet they think it prudent to put a "ban" on the players of this game/sport if they compete in a $13-million-added IPT Tour. Whose interests are they looking out for? It ain't the players.

To play or not to play, that is a question some players must decide, thanks to the WPA and APBU. Gee, some Asian tours are restricted by nationality and ban Americans and European players, anyway. Yet, here in America, we open our tournaments to players of every creed, nationality, and color.

Long live the IPT, and bravo to Kevin Trudeau for making it happen. NEVER before has there been this kind of investment in the game/sport, and it is exactly the kickstart that has been sorely needed for many a year. I can't wait to get to Orlando and see it unfold. This is truly history in the making.

JAM

JAM

where did you get 13 million? i only see 8 on the 2006 schedule
did i miss something?

bob

 

[Mike Templeton]

They may end up getting their sanctioning at reduced fees, just to save face, but KT holds the upper card in negotiation while his events offer many multiples in potential earnings than WPA sanctioned events around the world have to offer.

KT is adding close to 9 million this next year. All WPA sanctioned events probably total around 1 million. If they keep their 5% demand going, that is around US$450,000 in sanctioning fees. With this money alone he could payroll the top 10 players in the world and turn the WPA into a B grade league, as it will end up being if they try to ban all IPT members from the 9-Ball World Championships anyway.

Like him or not, Kevin Tudeau doesn't seem the type to be bullied around. I don't see him giving in to demands of Asian tours when he has made it clear that he is also promoting the Old Guard of players here in the US.

It's sad for the Asian players who have to decide, but in the scheme of the IPT, I don't think it will make a big difference to KT or the players who play here.

Mike

 

[Timberly]

At least he picked a fitting name... Dr. Dissent

Definition of dissension...

Main Entry: dis·sen·sion
Variant(s): also dis·sen·tion /di-'sen(t)-sh&n/
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin dissension-, dissensio, from dissentire
: DISAGREEMENT; especially : partisan and contentious quarreling

By banning players from the IPT, you're ultimately causing dessension in the pool world, which is EXACTLY what it doesn't need. There's been enough quarreling between tours & sanctioning bodies, & anything else to do with pool. All these people causing dessension in the pool world are the people getting fat paychecks off the backs of the struggling pool players. F the WPA & their ban... for once someone is going to let the pool player make the money they earn, instead of taking money from the player to fill the "Gods of the sanctioning bodies" pockets.

By the way Dr. Dissent, I didn't happen to catch your name. What is the reason behind hiding behind a screen name?

 

[onepocketchump]

It is not extortion.

$150,000 is 5 percent of the 3 million dollars Kevin Trudeau promissed for one event. For each event, the 5% would be applied.

Normal sanctioning fees are 5 percent of the added money. Sometimes you see tournaments indicating $10,000 or $15,000 added money. For $10,000 the sanctioning fees would be $500; for $15,000 the fee is $ 750.00.

Barry Behrman (recent US Open Tournament) should have paid $3,600 sanctioning fee to the WPA. This amount (paid) based on the $72,000 added money because of the full field of 256 players..

You are right, it's extortion if non-payment would have any serious consequences. At this stage there is nothing that the WPA can offer to Kevin Trudeau to enhance his tour. This just shows that the WPA is in effect powerless and inneffectual. The WPA and the APBU are just going to be without some of their better players for a long time. And they will see that any player who feels like they are a serious contender for the IPT tour will forgo the WPA/APBU tournaments for the IPT.

Instead of embracing the IPT and trying to figure out a way to enhance the experience the WPA is showing that it is being confrontatonal instead.

The truth is that the WPA would have gladly sold out their players if Kevin had paid up. They weren't going to insist that the IPT rules be the same as the WPA rules for 8-ball. They weren't concerned about the inclusion of the best players from each country, or what the feeder system would be, they weren't concerned about the women and juniors, just the money.

So, no, it's not extortion, it's begging with the pathetic part being that the only ones the WPA can hurt is the players, the ones they are supposed to be protecting.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

I agree, it's not extortion, it's simply asking too much for what is given in return.

Did the WPA offer attractive documentation of the benefits they deliver, as a normal business would? No, they demanded a price combined with a threat, as government type bureaucracies do. They prefer force over service. Little surprise KT took a backstep, quoting them as mafia like.

Does the WPA provide media coverage, PR expertise, channels of exposure? Certainly not in a professional or highly valuable sense. Compare this to a small event company, who has staff dedicated to media, PR, design etc. WPA is a committee, that implements very little. They scratch backs and cash in on the operators that actually organize and promote events.

If they come in with the IPT, they will seek to influence the format, title naming, event dates and all with lengthy time delays I suspect. The last this the IPT needs with so much to accomplish in a short time. Perhaps they'll demand equivalent women's, seniors, juniors, trickshots and wheelchair events to more fairly (politically correctly) distribute the moneys.

They may end up getting their sanctioning at reduced fees, just to save face, but KT holds the upper card in negotiation while his events offer many multiples in potential earnings than WPA sanctioned events around the world have to offer.

KT is adding close to 9 million this next year. All WPA sanctioned events probably total around 1 million. If they keep their 5% demand going, that is around US$450,000 in sanctioning fees. With this money alone he could payroll the top 10 players in the world and turn the WPA into a B grade league, as it will end up being if they try to ban all IPT members from the 9-Ball World Championships anyway.

Now if the WPA asks 50-100k per year, and doesn't interfere too much, then maybe a compromise will be made.

Just thinking aloud. I certainly want to see the existing tournaments continue and thrive if possible.

Does anyone care to BET that Barry Hearn won't stand for the top name draws being banned from HIS World Championship? Anyone want to bet their V-Cash that Efren and the rest of the asian crew who play in the IPT also play in the WC in 2006?

Anyone care to bet that the San Miguel tour won't ban the top stars either? I bet they will tell the APBU to go elsewhere.

John

 

[Celtic]

It's sad for the Asian players who have to decide, but in the scheme of the IPT, I don't think it will make a big difference to KT or the players who play here.

On the other hand the Asian pool community has already proved itself to be isolationist in their approach of disallowing any non-asian players to play on the San Miguel tour and running a great deal of localized events with very few open events despite the strong surges the sport has been seeing in that area of the world. I did not see the Asian players piping up on the unfairness of them being able to play in any event on any tour in the USA and yet having their special tour allowing only them to play in it. Now the same tour that protected their interests and the same isolationist approach is comming back to bite them in the ass.

The WPA and APBU should look really close at the World Curling Tour and their feud with the Briar in Canada. This was a similar thing, the pro's got a new tour with more money and more opportunity and the Briar decided to play hardball and flat out told the World Curling Tour members if they played on the tour they would not be eligable to play in the Briar. Suffice to say most of the top teams went on to play on the pro tour, the Briar's field of talent got decimated and it was relegated to almost amature status in the eyes of the fans. They finally dropped the ban for thier own interests but they will forever be marked for the dumb move they made and the record books will always show that few years where the talent pool dropped off. The Briar will never quite have the status it would have had if it had simply let the World Curling Tour exist and still let the top players compete. It is a hard road back when you play this kind of move and get owned. They better watch themselves lest the world 9-ball championships suddenly becomes nothing more then a localized Asian tournament with the top Taiwanese players playing against the shortstops from every other country in the world since all the elite of the other countries are playing on the IPT. And give it a year or two of IPT success and they can expect to lose the top Taiwan players as well and the World 9-ball Championships will go the way of the Brair and be a amature competition of second rate players that cannot make the IPT tour.

This is a BAD move on the WPA's part. They have little to gain and ALOT to lose playing this card.

 

[sjm]

Equal access to all comers in competition is not the Asian way, so the quality of the Asian pro pool product is entirely contingent on continual access to Asia's biggest stars. The continued emergence and success of the San Miguel Tour has resulted in a reduced presence of the top Asian players in America, which, I suspect, is just how WPA/APBU likes it. Imagine how much they must have hated it when Alex, Jose, and Francisco came 1-2-3 in the recently completed US Open!

One can fully understand why WPA/APBU is taking these steps, as they don't want to have to compete for the services of Asia's top players, whose services they had begun to take for granted. I also suspect that they feel that, in the WPC, they have the only truly comprehensive field of elite international players on the world pool calendar, and they don't want to see that change.

That they would penalize the very stars that have vitalized the San Miguel Tour for playing in an IPT event is disgraceful, but by no means surprising. The business motives of WPA/APBU are clear, but their actions have been made necessary by their own monopolistic and exclusionary business practices.

In short, this is all very disheartening.

 

[Sweet Marissa]

posts

John,

Tap Tap Tap towards both your posts!!

 

[trophycue]

Can you guys expound on your statements of "weak" and "stupid"? I am sure everyone knows why you are saying these things and there are of course arguements for both sides. I figured a forum like this is to share information, not just call people names.

that was am awful short response from Celtic...............he is ussually one LONGGGGGGGGGGGG!! winded son of a *****...........now your chiding him on!!!!!!!!!!!............relax celtic , I'm just pullin your leg, Iam rite between toronto and montreal...........if your comin thru some day, lemee know...........cheers!

 

[Nostroke]

The WPA and APBU should look really close at the World Curling Tour and their feud with the Briar in Canada. This was a similar thing, the pro's got a new tour with more money and more opportunity and the Briar decided to play hardball and flat out told the World Curling Tour members if they played on the tour they would not be eligable to play in the Briar. Suffice to say most of the top teams went on to play on the pro tour, the Briar's field of talent got decimated and it was relegated to almost amature status in the eyes of the fans. They finally dropped the ban for thier own interests but they will forever be marked for the dumb move they made and the record books will always show that few years where the talent pool dropped off. The Briar will never quite have the status it would have had if it had simply let the World Curling Tour exist and still let the top players compete. It is a hard road back when you play this kind of move and get owned. They better watch themselves lest the world 9-ball championships suddenly becomes nothing more then a localized Asian tournament with the top Taiwanese players playing against the shortstops from every other country in the world since all the elite of the other countries are playing on the IPT. And give it a year or two of IPT success and they can expect to lose the top Taiwan players as well and the World 9-ball Championships will go the way of the Brair and be a amature competition of second rate players that cannot make the IPT tour.

This is a BAD move on the WPA's part. They have little to gain and ALOT to lose playing this card.

World Curling Tour? OMG! Tell me they have huge Corporate sponsorship and all their players are rich.

 

[Rich R.]

You say Barry should have paid... Does that mean the US Open wasn't santioned by the WPA?

Press releases and advertisement for the U.S. Open indicated that the tournament was sanctioned by the WPA and the UPA. We must assume that all appropriate fees were paid.

 

[berry]

There are two things that are standing for the WPA:

1: the sanction fee is there to support pool world wide, not only one tournament with big bucks but also Wheelchair pool or kids pool. This is very importuned for the sport and believe me the sport can't survive with KT way. Dividing the million per tournament among the top 50 players of the world is nice BUT there are millions of other players.

2: Sources tell me that the WPA gave KT an offer for a free sanction by the WPA but he declined that offer because he doesn't recognize any other organization. Not even the WPA that have taken care of all the players for the last 23 years.
I know that if KT would like to organize the biggest tournament in the world and would work together with the WPA thing would be very good for all players. But KT decided to ignore them and organize a World Pool Championship 8-ball with 2 players.......

 

[Dr. Dissent]

Well, I can see the sanctioning issue from the WPA's perpsective but this is the first time I have ever seen a continental federation attempt to sanction tournaments on other continents. Since when do United States tournaments need Asian sanctioning. And furthermore, all the US tournaments don't get WPA sanctioning either and WPA players regularly play in them.

Here comes petty bullshit politics. Well screw them. I have never seen or heard of one cent of the sanctioning money that the WPA collects going to fund either larger tournaments or the promotion of billiards in the USA.

Has the WPA or the APBU ever tried to get ESPN to carry their tournaments in the USA? Are the Asian tours open to Americans like EVERY U.S. Tournament is open to all players of all nationalities?

This is really weak.

John

John, the APBU is saying that they want all other WPA member federations to abide by the APBU's ban. If any of the banned (APBU) players are in any of the WPA sanctioned tournaments including the U.S., South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, etc., they tournament directors should not let the banned players participate in the event.

Let's just say that if Efren Reyes, Bustamante, and Manalo decide to play in the next IPT tournament, and the APBU does follow with a ban, these players should not be able to participate in next year's World Pool Championships since the ban would be effective for one year and the World Championships is normally held in July.

The US Open, normally held in September would have to leave these players out if Mr. Berhman decides to obtain WPA Sanctioning again.

 

[Dr. Dissent]

This one is easy....

Does anyone care to BET that Barry Hearn won't stand for the top name draws being banned from HIS World Championship? Anyone want to bet their V-Cash that Efren and the rest of the asian crew who play in the IPT also play in the WC in 2006?

Anyone care to bet that the San Miguel tour won't ban the top stars either? I bet they will tell the APBU to go elsewhere.

John

John:

Barry Hearns owns the WPC, Mosconi Cup, etc. He can decide who will play in his events by giving out wild cards, etc. When Mr. Strickland was banned from the UPA, Mr. Hearn put him in charge of the USA Team, and the UPA had to shut-up and let the USA selected play.

If the APBU does put a ban on the Filipino Contingent, I am certain that Mr. Hearn would care less and let them play anyway.

Reyes and gang would play in the San Miguel Tour regardless of the ban, if San Miguel is not paying sanctioning dues to the APBU.

 

[jjinfla]

As good as Bustamante and Reyes are they are getting up in age and are not at their peak anymore. Yet they both have a pretty good chance to do very well in the IPT. If they spend 2006 playing in the IPT will their earnings surpass what they could possibly earn with the WPA? If they are banned by the WPA will that affect the contracts they have with their sponsors? Will they lose popularity with their home country fans?

Gee. I wish I had those problems and decisions to make.

 

[onepocketchump]

John, the APBU is saying that they want all other WPA member federations to abide by the APBU's ban. If any of the banned (APBU) players are in any of the WPA sanctioned tournaments including the U.S., South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, etc., they tournament directors should not let the banned players participate in the event.

Let's just say that if Efren Reyes, Bustamante, and Manalo decide to play in the next IPT tournament, and the APBU does follow with a ban, these players should not be able to participate in next year's World Pool Championships since the ban would be effective for one year and the World Championships is normally held in July.

The US Open, normally held in September would have to leave these players out if Mr. Berhman decides to obtain WPA Sanctioning again.

I understand that. What the APBU is effectively saying is that they reserve the right to determine when and where their players can play. In other words they want to exercise complete control over Asian pool players without providing the same platform for those players to earn a living commensurate with their skill levels.

The truth is that Barry Behrman, Barry Hearn, The UPA, Diamond Billiards, and all the other promoters in the USA and around the globe are NOT going to refuse to allow Efren Reyes to play in their tournaments. They will gladly forgo WPA sanctioning by knowing that they will still have full and willing participation.

The WPA and it's continental organizations have had 20 years to grow into the kind of organization that actually does wield the power to provide a stable platform for pool worldwide. They failed. Pool is more fragmented than ever before. Does the APA, VNEA, BCA-League, TAP, APPA, or any local league system have WPA sanctioning? Does any local or regional tournament have BCA or WPA sanctioning? The WPA has had 20 years put a grassroots funding method in place to make it the legitimate governing body of pool. They failed, they have no money, they have no power. It is no wonder that they are not taken seriously by Kevin Trudeau.

IF the WPA had done their job then Mike Sigel would not have retired and lamented the state of "professional pool" to Kevin. Why do think that Kevin is using pool for this venture and not golf. Why is he not creating a rival golf tour with rules from 1919 that 'go back to the days of real golf'? Because golf is ESTABLISHED worldwide and controlled BY strong organzations that have the POWER to dictate to promoters and advertisers how tournaments shall be run. That is a governing body, not a beggar boy.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

John:

Barry Hearns owns the WPC, Mosconi Cup, etc. He can decide who will play in his events by giving out wild cards, etc. When Mr. Strickland was banned from the UPA, Mr. Hearn put him in charge of the USA Team, and the UPA had to shut-up and let the USA selected play.

If the APBU does put a ban on the Filipino Contingent, I am certain that Mr. Hearn would care less and let them play anyway.

Reyes and gang would play in the San Miguel Tour regardless of the ban, if San Miguel is not paying sanctioning dues to the APBU.

How is it that Barry "owns" the WPC? You see, that is the issue right there! The WPA sold out on the WPC for the right amount of money. Why didn't they make it so that Barry had to absorb the costs of running a women's and juniors WPC with the same format as the men?

The APBU is effectively using the lesser players as hostages to attempt to force the stars and the promoters to aquiesce.

John