APBU Bans Players

[Dr. Dissent]

Sorry to interrupt this nice discourse about the pros and cons of WPA sanctioning, but just for the record, Earl Strickland was NOT banned from the UPA. He quit due to reasons which are well known within the American pool community.

Carry on, if you must, Dr. Dissent, but you're barking up the wrong tree on this forum, unless you enjoying being in the minority party!

LONG LIVE THE IPT!

JAM

JAM, if you read my post, I was saying that it doesn't matter if top players get banned from their respective federations. If Barry Bearns, or Mr.Bherman wants him or any other player in their tournaments, they will play regardless if they have been banned or if they quit, like Mr. Strickland did.

I'm not barking up the wrong tree. I am against the bans....and yes, I know I am a minority party.....

 

[Dr. Dissent]

You say Barry should have paid... Does that mean the US Open wasn't santioned by the WPA?

Originally the added money for the US Open was $50,000. This means Barry should have paid $2500 sanctioning fees. The US Open flyer also indicated that he would put in $72,000 if there was a full field. This means the sanctioning fee should have been $3,600.

 

[Dr. Dissent]

My name is Timberly (I didn't realize how much "T" looks like "K" )

Geez, Timberly, it was an honest mistake. Sorry to have misspelled your name...

I still haven't seen your name... your surname, not the one your choosing to hide behind.

No need to know my name. You should have decifered my reasons by now...

 

[Dr. Dissent]

Press releases and advertisement for the U.S. Open indicated that the tournament was sanctioned by the WPA and the UPA. We must assume that all appropriate fees were paid.

Thank you Rich R.

 

[onepocketchump]

150 hand picked players, not 'everyone'.

Dave

Um, with several thousand applicants and two tournaments that are billed as TRULY OPEN to anyone I would say that the IPT is certainly open. More so than the so-called US Open, more than WPBA's US Open, more than the Japan Open, more than the San Miguel Tour, more than the UPA.

John

 

[berry]

BS. Please provide proof of any tournaments/organizations in the United States which have received any money FROM the WPA. The WPA sold out the men's World Championships without doing anything for the Women and Juniors.



If so then why did the WPA then ask for $150,000? Did they feel that KT would recognize them if they put a price tag on the sanctioning. The hard, cold truth is that KT does not NEED WPA sanctioning. If he did then he would of paid the $150,000 without blinking. But he knows who is who in the pool world and knows who he needs to deal with and who he does not. That is the failure of the WPA and the BCA.

John

Dear John,

I have seen US players (youth and woman) play at the World Pool Championships. Both organized by the WPA. Besides that I know that as from next year there will also be a WPC 8-ball for youth in the Fujaira. Then I have to say I don't know the US situation but the EPBF (European department of the WPA) have many tournaments for men / woman and youth and wheelchair players. Have a look at www.europeanchampionships.com or http://www.wch-pool.com/en/main.php?location=start just to give you an idea.

Then the sanction fee, my sources say the WPA wanted to sanction it for FREE! But KT doesn't reconize any other organization besides his own. And even when they have asked 150.000$, what a good way to contribute to the sport, that's a very reasanable amount on his budget. This way he would contribute to the sport, still have all the players behind his tournment and support the complete picture of the sport instead of the 50 pro players and his book.

Then you said in a other post that Berry Hearn picked his own players in his tournaments, well altough that was the case I have to say that you can now qualify for the WPC, they made rules with the WPA!! And also the other tournaments have selection criteria that were made in agreement with the WPA.

Regards,

Berry

 

[onepocketchump]

Dear John,

I have seen US players (youth and woman) play at the World Pool Championships. Both organized by the WPA. Besides that I know that as from next year there will also be a WPC 8-ball for youth in the Fujaira. Then I have to say I don't know the US situation but the EPBF (European department of the WPA) have many tournaments for men / woman and youth and wheelchair players. Have a look at www.europeanchampionships.com or http://www.wch-pool.com/en/main.php?location=start just to give you an idea.

Then the sanction fee, my sources say the WPA wanted to sanction it for FREE! But KT doesn't reconize any other organization besides his own. And even when they have asked 150.000$, what a good way to contribute to the sport, that's a very reasanable amount on his budget. This way he would contribute to the sport, still have all the players behind his tournment and support the complete picture of the sport instead of the 50 pro players and his book.

Then you said in a other post that Berry Hearn picked his own players in his tournaments, well altough that was the case I have to say that you can now qualify for the WPC, they made rules with the WPA!! And also the other tournaments have selection criteria that were made in agreement with the WPA.

Regards,

Berry

What I am saying is that the WPA sold out the WPC to Barry Hearn. The Women and Juniors were relegated to second class status and their World Championships are barely even noticed and done in obscure places under a different format than the men's WPC.

Don't get me wrong - the men's WPC under Barry Hearn is MORE exciting and more of a test of skill than the same event under the WPA.

But, it is a clear example of HOW the WPA is for sale. Why is the winner of the VNEA nationals not offered a spot at the WC, why not the winner of the BCA nationals? Why not the APA singles champion? Why is the UPA the ones who choose who goes to the WC? The point is that it is ALL political with the WPA with NO CONSISTENTCY at all. That is why a Chia Ching Wu (taiwan) doesn't have to qualify for the WPC but a Justin Bergman (USA)does.

Finally, you say that you don't know about the USA's billiard situation as regards the WPA and suboridnate federations' tournaments. The WPA has no requirement that any tournaments, leagues or particular formats be held or followed in the USA. The only tournament that the BCA, the organization that belongs to the WPA, holds of any signifigance is the INVITATIONAL in Las Vegas. The WPA isn't asking the VNEA, the BCA Leauges, and the APA for sanctioning money EVEN though WPA and EPBF players play in those league events. If the WPA had any clout then we would all play with standard rules, money would flow from the smallest venues to support pool worldwide and no single promoter could buck the system. But, in the USA the WPA is insignifigant as is the BCA and so their demands for sanctioning fees and recognition is treated with about the same level as their contribution.

The fact that Barry Hearn does a much better job of PRODUCING an event that is not only exciting but a real test of skill that crowns a deserving champion ought to be all the example you need to see that a promoter does a better job of elevating pool than the WPA does. Isn't it sad that the WC was seen LIVE and EVERY shot was seen and replayed in slow motion, everywhere EXCEPT the United States? Please outline exactly what the WPA did to rectify that situation?

John

 

[berry]

@ John,

"The Women and Juniors were relegated to second class status and their World Championships are barely even noticed and done in obscure places under a different format than the men's WPC. "

I guess that you never visited such a tournament. I am very sorry that you think that way, but it is not true. Ask the youth from the Europeans or World Championship how they think about the tournament and location. As coach of the Dutch yout I can say they are great, just as good as the WPC!!! Indeed there are less press, but you have that with most sports.

"Don't get me wrong - the men's WPC under Barry Hearn is MORE exciting and more of a test of skill than the same event under the WPA."

Don't mix up a production company with a world pool organization. You cannot compare them. You could be happy that the WPA does a lot of buisiness with Matchroom, as they do that for the game.

Then you complain with the qualifying system of the WPC, well they were made with all the members of the WPA together with Matchroom. You can find them here: http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com/qualification_system.asp

I think that if you want to Qualify and you have these rules: Category 4
Winner and runner-up of all UPA-sanctioned events having a field of 48 or more players, which take place within a period that commences immediately after the previous year’s championship and finishes on the 15 May on the year of the World Pool Championship. In following years, the relevant period will revert to a 12 months cycle from May 16 to May 15 the following year.

Category 5
The winner and runner-up in the following events having taken place in the 12 months prior to the World Pool Championship: the US Open 9-Ball Championship, the BCA Open 9-Ball Championship

Category 6
The top four highest finishing players at the 2004 Canadian National 9-Ball Championship

Category 7
The top 12 ranked North American players on the UPA Seeding Rankings up to 15 May.

Category 8
Team America representatives at the previous three Mosconi Cups (2004, 2003, 2002)

If you are good enough you could qualify!

"The fact that Barry Hearn does a much better job of PRODUCING an event that is not only exciting but a real test of skill that crowns a deserving champion ought to be all the example you need to see that a promoter does a better job of elevating pool than the WPA does. Isn't it sad that the WC was seen LIVE and EVERY shot was seen and replayed in slow motion, everywhere EXCEPT the United States? Please outline exactly what the WPA did to rectify that situation?"

Matchroom works with the WPA so you should complement the WPA for working together with them. You cannot expect Matchroom to be the World Assosiation...???
And why wasn't it shown in the US, well because the TV bosses didn't buy it, not the fold of Matchroom and nothing to do with the WPA.
Like the IPT, it's very hard to get into the TV market, the deal they have now is like a 5 minute item in a sportsshow...WOW it's on prime time...it's still not broadcasting a tournament and THE REST OF THE WORLD cannot see a damn thing.

Berry

 

[Sweet Marissa]

Then the sanction fee, my sources say the WPA wanted to sanction it for FREE! But KT doesn't reconize any other organization besides his own. And even when they have asked 150.000$, what a good way to contribute to the sport, that's a very reasanable amount on his budget. This way he would contribute to the sport, still have all the players behind his tournment and support the complete picture of the sport instead of the 50 pro players and his book.

He's already investing millions into this venture. So he's supposed to pay out-of-pocket to be sanctioned by the WPA, who approached him like they're the mafia of pool?

What will the IPT benefit from being sanctioned? What can they do for the IPT, that Trudeau can't do himself? It looks to me like he's doing a pretty good job with everything already: Deno Andrews is onboard as TD, hired a top marketing firm, media coverage and exposure, millions in payouts...

 

[T411]

He's already investing millions into this venture. So he's supposed to pay out-of-pocket to be sanctioned by the WPA, who approached him like they're the mafia of pool?

What will the IPT benefit from being sanctioned? What can they do for the IPT, that Trudeau can't do himself? It looks to me like he's doing a pretty good job with everything already: Deno Andrews is onboard as TD, hired a top marketing firm, media coverage and exposure, millions in payouts...

Tap, Tap, Tap, very good!

 

[Celtic]

Seems I really hit the nail on the head in post #74 before the second round of KT questions ever came out.

 

[Sweet Marissa]

Seems I really hit the nail on the head in post #74 before the second round of KT questions ever came out.

You sure did, and you're not alone in your thinking. It's apparent that the WPA is looking out for itself instead of its players.

 

[onepocketchump]

@ John,

"The Women and Juniors were relegated to second class status and their World Championships are barely even noticed and done in obscure places under a different format than the men's WPC. "

I guess that you never visited such a tournament. I am very sorry that you think that way, but it is not true. Ask the youth from the Europeans or World Championship how they think about the tournament and location. As coach of the Dutch yout I can say they are great, just as good as the WPC!!! Indeed there are less press, but you have that with most sports. [/qupte]

Then you guessed wrong. I was one of the sponsors of the 1997 World Championships and was on the dais for the awards presentation. This is the problem when you argue based on assumptions.

"Don't get me wrong - the men's WPC under Barry Hearn is MORE exciting and more of a test of skill than the same event under the WPA."

Don't mix up a production company with a world pool organization. You cannot compare them. You could be happy that the WPA does a lot of buisiness with Matchroom, as they do that for the game.

Then you complain with the qualifying system of the WPC, well they were made with all the members of the WPA together with Matchroom. You can find them here: http://www.worldpoolchampionship.com/qualification_system.asp

I think that if you want to Qualify and you have these rules: Category 4
Winner and runner-up of all UPA-sanctioned events having a field of 48 or more players, which take place within a period that commences immediately after the previous year’s championship and finishes on the 15 May on the year of the World Pool Championship. In following years, the relevant period will revert to a 12 months cycle from May 16 to May 15 the following year.

Category 5
The winner and runner-up in the following events having taken place in the 12 months prior to the World Pool Championship: the US Open 9-Ball Championship, the BCA Open 9-Ball Championship

Category 6
The top four highest finishing players at the 2004 Canadian National 9-Ball Championship

Category 7
The top 12 ranked North American players on the UPA Seeding Rankings up to 15 May.

Category 8
Team America representatives at the previous three Mosconi Cups (2004, 2003, 2002)

If you are good enough you could qualify!

"The fact that Barry Hearn does a much better job of PRODUCING an event that is not only exciting but a real test of skill that crowns a deserving champion ought to be all the example you need to see that a promoter does a better job of elevating pool than the WPA does. Isn't it sad that the WC was seen LIVE and EVERY shot was seen and replayed in slow motion, everywhere EXCEPT the United States? Please outline exactly what the WPA did to rectify that situation?"

Matchroom works with the WPA so you should complement the WPA for working together with them. You cannot expect Matchroom to be the World Assosiation...???
And why wasn't it shown in the US, well because the TV bosses didn't buy it, not the fold of Matchroom and nothing to do with the WPA.
Like the IPT, it's very hard to get into the TV market, the deal they have now is like a 5 minute item in a sportsshow...WOW it's on prime time...it's still not broadcasting a tournament and THE REST OF THE WORLD cannot see a damn thing.

Berry

Thank you for so eloquently making my points. The WPA does "business" with Matchroom. My point exactly. The WPA will SELL OUT for the right price. I have not seen anything where the WPA questions the RULES of the IPT, the FORMAT of the IPT, the SELECTION process of the IPT, EXCEPT WHEN THE IPT DIDN'T PAY UP.

And, I know you are Dutch and all, but you apparently speak and read English well enough to understand the press release where it says that the King of the Hill event will be SHOWCASED on the sports show on Fox. In case you didn't read it or understand it, I suggest you go back and try again as Deno already pointed out to you.

I am not going to argue the qualification systems with you. My point is that it is quite different throughout the world not what you would expect from a so-called governing body of pool. What a stupid term by the way. The APA claims it is the governing body of amateur pool. Do they pay WPA sanctioning fees?

John

 

[DaveK]

Hey Dave...good to see you taking it in your stride/seat

I take it in the seat occasionally, no big deal.

I see the pool scene developing not unlike the motor racing world, with multiple professional circuits playing slightly different games. In racing you might have arguments like "who's a better driver, Paul Tracey or Ralph Schumacher ? " (applogies for any misspelling of names). Who knows, they never race against each other, but one makes more $ than the other. I guess that is OK, and I'm sure Paul and Ralph do not loose sleep over the issue. However I have a background in Athletics (track and field) where there is only one game that everyone plays. There was absolutely no arguement when Sergei Bubka was dominating the pole vault, he was #1 in everyones books, because there is only one book. Today there can be no argument that Thierry Lincou is the #1 ranked squash player in the world. Who's the #1 pool player in the world (rhetorical) ? I'd like to see the various pool disciplines evolve that way rather than become more fractured, but like my mother says "if wishes were horses beggars would ride".

Good luck to you in the events Colin, I'm sure many of us AZers will be following your progress through the brackets.

Dave

 

[BlackDragon]

....like since theres a dress code for IPT players and truly trudeau says he wants to appeal to the hip hop crowd as well, everyone should wear a baseball cap backwards

 

[RED NAXELA]

Golden Rule

We may all beweep our outcast state and trouble deaf heaven with our bootless cries about how crappy KT's rules are, but in the end it's the GOLDEN RULE at work: he who has the gold makes the rules. And he who goes all the way and beat Sigel, despite the rules, will get the gold.

 

[Tbeaux]

Hmmm...Sanctioning huh...and what would these organizations do if KT went ahead and accepted ALL membership applications and then submitted HIS sanctioning fee to them to have members of the IPT participate in WPA events??

Terry

 

[Snapshot9]

My ,02 cents

I think the dress code is appropriate. Many
organizations have dress codes for playing in their
tournaments. They are professionals, and should
reflect that when they compete. They should, however,
not make them shoot in attire deemed uncomfortable so
as to hinder their performance (wear sport coats to the
event, but not required to shoot in them).

The 'Gangsta' look has no place here or the NBA for that
matter. It is a FAD, and not a cultural heritage as proclaimed.
Grow up, little boys would be my words to those that find
religion in that style. You are professionals, not street urchins.

 

[sjm]

I think the dress code is appropriate. Many
organizations have dress codes for playing in their
tournaments. They are professionals, and should
reflect that when they compete. They should, however,
not make them shoot in attire deemed uncomfortable so
as to hinder their performance (wear sport coats to the
event, but not required to shoot in them).

The 'Gangsta' look has no place here or the NBA for that
matter. It is a FAD, and not a cultural heritage as proclaimed.
Grow up, little boys would be my words to those that find
religion in that style. You are professionals, not street urchins.

Tap, tap, tap. Nicely put.

 

[bgb]

Well, here's what I think, in case anybody cares, and I may not have all the facts.

The WPA offered to sanction the IPT tournaments for a fee, Trudeau claims that the fee was $150,000 which sounds high to me but let's assume it's true (maybe it's based on a purse percentage). Trudeau flatly declined so this is the tactic the WPA is pursuing to combat his refusal.

To me this is akin to someone coming into the world of golf and putting on a $1 billion tournament, with $500 million to the winner. The PGA then says to that guy that they will sanction his tournament for a $10 million fee (sounds like a lot but it's only 1% of the money in the purse). They guy refuses and basically says to the PGA "all of the players will play in my tournament whether you ban them or not because you've never been able to offer this kind of money before. I have a golf course for them to play on and a bunch of money - what do I need the PGA tour for?"

As a recourse, the PGA says to it's players the following: "The PGA is not sanctioning the $1 billion tournament. We offered to work with the organizer and he refused. The PGA has been in the game for years and years and, through it's tournaments, paid off monies far in excess of what is being offered here. Though it has never offered the prize funds as seen in the new event, it's longevity speaks for itself. We cannot stop any player from competing in the new tournament so if you want to go and take a chance on this organizer and his tourament, and his promised 'events' please feel free. BUT DON"T COME BACK!"

What would you do if you were one of the golfers facing this choice?

Now granted the WPA is not the PGA, make no mistake about it. And PGA golfers are in a much different financial situation than pool players, no doubt about that. However, the WPA has been around doing their thing, good or bad, for quite some time, and I think their point to their players is that they were here yesterday, and they're going to be here tomorrow. With the IPT, there are no such guarantees.

I read about how Trudeau dealt with the WPA situation and I disapprove. I much favor the solution of another deep-pocket promoter, Barry Hearn, who when he decided to get into the game of pool worked WITH the powers that be in the game so that the event he promotes would be as successful as possible in the current climate, and that it would be legitimate.

According to the article Trudeau simply hung up on the WPA after he heard the size of their fee. Why not work with them - say something like, "well I can't pay you that right now, because all the money is tied up in the advertised prize fund. How about instead you sanction my events for the first year for free, and in exchange I'll provide you with free promotional advertising space in my venues and TV coverage for your own events. Then if things are successful after the first year we can talk about a fee for sanctioning." I mean, this would be the kind of negotiating I could approve of.

I know Barry Hearn fairly well and I can promise you that he didn't pay the WPA anything like $150,000 (I doubt he paid anything), but he has WPA sanctioning. My guess is that he cut a deal, because that's what pros do. The kind of move Trudeau pulls to just flat out refuse them, and then laugh about how he did it in the press is brutal, and it does no one any good whatsoever. It makes him look bad and it makes them look bad.