Appleton: We are better players than Americans...

In another thread, in which Thorsten Hohmann was giving a pool clinic, I read the following comment from KickingChicken:

"When he began on Saturday, Thorsten, or "Toasti" as he prefers to be called, shared an observation that he said was rather shocking to him. That, in large part, American pool players lack structure in their practice routines. He said he finds it commonplace for players here in "The States" to simply throw balls on the table and shoot them in. And that many players seldom go any further than that. So he posed a couple of fair questions about this: "What is their goal and how do they measure their progress?" He said he found this peculiar to the USA and that in most other countries, players routinely had structured drills and practice sessions that measures their progress."
One reason why the Europeans may think they are better than their American counterparts may be because the Europeans are more disciplined about the game, especially in their practice and drill regimens. I'm inclined to think that Toasti may very well be right about that.

i mean, what can you say? good for toasti. im sure he pencils in when he's gonna have sex with his girlfriend too-- god knows how he measures his progress on that front.

i think it is arrogant and egotistical to assume you know what is best for other players, and perhaps even more arrogant to think you know how they practice when other top players are not around.
 
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Actually as far as gambling goes I think Darren has posted a standing invitation to ANYONE in the world to come to England and play for $50,000.

No one is barred, not Efren, not Alex, not Dennis, not Shane, no one.

And NO ONE has stepped up to play and no one WILL STEP UP to play. Quote by JB



Is this true? I posted it in the action room.
 
Why do people count TAR matches to rate the level of play?

Didn't people complain about one TAR match played at a participants room so he had a big breaking advantage?
US players gamble a lot, over here in Europe gambling is dead for at least 20 years. Not Appleton nor Souquet or Hohmann have ever played a race to 100

World 8-Ball Finals: Boyes beat Feijen
World Team Championship: Great Britian
US Open: Appleton
World Straight Pool Championship: Ortmann beat Immonen
World Games: Souquet
All Japan Championship: Hohmann
Challenge of Champions: Immonen
 
Why do people count TAR matches to rate the level of play?

Didn't people complain about one TAR match played at a participants room so he had a big breaking advantage?
US players gamble a lot, over here in Europe gambling is dead for at least 20 years. Not Appleton nor Souquet or Hohmann have ever played a race to 100

World 8-Ball Finals: Boyes beat Feijen
World Team Championship: Great Britian
US Open: Appleton
World Straight Pool Championship: Ortmann beat Immonen
World Games: Souquet
All Japan Championship: Hohmann
Challenge of Champions: Immonen

World 10-ball the last years Immonen and Appleton
US Open the last years Immonen and Appleton
World 9-ball 2007 Daryl Peach
World 14-1 the last years, hohmann, feijen, ortmann and stephan cohen

Guess they just got lucky :)
 
this is pointless. Europe has top level players but not anywhere near the top. You arn't going to see them coming over here for the cash. period. They already tried and failed. Proof is in the pudding. Europe has been playing good pool from a select few individuals.....ralf for many years. mika for the several years....but more in the last few.....darren in tournys for 1 year......thorston is a constant force......but non of them play better than usa.....and can't go to the phillipines and come out ok.....karl boyes has little chance against hatch.....I question if he has the chance of beating someone like hennessey in a long race here in the us......of course we all have national pride involved......roy....your the last person to talk about class and idiots....check your post history vs. mine.....someone said if us won I would feel different.....no....the mosconi cup would not tell whom the better players are.....no matter who wins......europe is getting good at the tournys....but how are they for the cash in a marathon.....time will tell.....however I don't belive anyone in the world will ever eclipse the likes of a young earl or sigel, varner, archer, efren, parica, rempe, or bustamante.....not going to happen in my humble opinion
 
this is pointless. Europe has top level players but not anywhere near the top. You arn't going to see them coming over here for the cash. period. They already tried and failed. Proof is in the pudding. Europe has been playing good pool from a select few individuals.....ralf for many years. mika for the several years....but more in the last few.....darren in tournys for 1 year......thorston is a constant force......but non of them play better than usa.....and can't go to the phillipines and come out ok.....karl boyes has little chance against hatch.....I question if he has the chance of beating someone like hennessey in a long race here in the us......of course we all have national pride involved......roy....your the last person to talk about class and idiots....check your post history vs. mine.....someone said if us won I would feel different.....no....the mosconi cup would not tell whom the better players are.....no matter who wins......europe is getting good at the tournys....but how are they for the cash in a marathon.....time will tell.....however I don't belive anyone in the world will ever eclipse the likes of a young earl or sigel, varner, archer, efren, parica, rempe, or bustamante.....not going to happen in my humble opinion

You seem to be a very interesting and intellectual gentleman so I would love to check your post-history, but unfortunately both my optometrist and my English-teacher from high school have warned me about reading too much from people who can't use paragraphs when they write.

So... Maybe next time.

I'll pass for now.
 
Thorston's practice philosophy is preached by all the top American instructors. Every word in his quote regarding practice was spot on. The Mosconi cup has alot of similarities to the Ryder Cup in golf. We always think our American team will dominate/win. We always underestimate the abilities of the Euro"s in both golf and pool. Lets face the facts.....the Euro's are world class in both their abilities and their character. Any bashing at this point is nothing more than sour grapes. Congrats to the Euro's on a job well done. They beat us fair and square.
 
Forgive me, but I'll tip my hat and say well played to Team Europe.

Appleton has talked the talk and, given his run of a US Open title, a Mosconi Cup victory, and the MVP award in the Mosconi Cup, he has walked the walk.

Best, though, is to celebrate the continuing emergence of the Europeans as great players. With the Americans, the Asians and the Europeans playing such great pool, we, the fans, are assured of lots of memorable competition.

These rivalries are great for our sport. Let's enjoy them rather than bemoaning the pride that every player and fan takes in the accomplishments of those he/she prefers.
 
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We're still the one pocket and bank pool champs, aren't we lol?

Pool, like golf, is an international game and no one should be surprised other countries are kicking our butt sometimes at these games.

The future of golf and pool is also in Asia so don't worry, soon the Euros will be getting drilled by 15 year old Asian kids who run out every time. Check out the trend in pro golf for the ladies, for example.

The short races obviously make the result not the best test of overall talent, but they won, they played better, so good for Europe and good luck to the US in the next event.
 
Actually as far as gambling goes I think Darren has posted a standing invitation to ANYONE in the world to come to England and play for $50,000.

No one is barred, not Efren, not Alex, not Dennis, not Shane, no one.

And NO ONE has stepped up to play and no one WILL STEP UP to play. Quote by JB



Is this true? I posted it in the action room.

As far as I know. I think that there was a thread or several about it.

Daz is a member here. Just ask him. IIRC no one even even moved a millimeter in his direction when he posted it.
 
I agree with krelldog 100%. Thorsten is not being arrogant...he is correct. It's just one reason why players from around the world many times get the best of American players in world class tournaments. Americans, by and large, do not believe in lessons and coaching. Almost all other countries have some sort of program, some of which are supported, in some fashion, by their governments.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thorston's practice philosophy is preached by all the top American instructors. Every word in his quote regarding practice was spot on. The Mosconi cup has alot of similarities to the Ryder Cup in golf. We always think our American team will dominate/win. We always underestimate the abilities of the Euro"s in both golf and pool. Lets face the facts.....the Euro's are world class in both their abilities and their character. Any bashing at this point is nothing more than sour grapes. Congrats to the Euro's on a job well done. They beat us fair and square.
 
hahahaha. Time to eat your words you idiot. How long have you been playing this game? Inspired by the potential of the ipt (where he finished 7th in the opening event) darren started playing competetively around 4 years ago . In those 4 years he's won:

- bca 8 ball grand masters
- 2 euro tours
- world 10 ball
- world team championships (as captain)
- world pool masters
- us open 9 ball

this is a record jonny, svb etc. Would be proud of.

And now to add to that darren just played what was probably one of the most perfect sets of pool ever seen in a mosconi cup and his sensational performance rightly earned him the mvp. Thats the real truth. You're on a different planet.



lmao!!!! Suck my nutsssssssssssssssss!!
 
I am just curious, Stevansonson, and my inquiry has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

I notice this is your first post, so welcome.

What date did you join this forum and register? I was curious how long it takes to register and then be allowed to actually make a post.

Thanks in advance for your kind reply. :)

should i take this the kind way? i'm not good at detecting hinted animosity online.
i suppose it was meant as written: you read threads, you decide you wanna post, you register, you can post instantly.
by the way, i dont know about gambling mentality in the states. i just know that i picked up the game while i was living in thailand, where its basically pure gambling. now i came back to germany and joined a club, where the game is taken very very seriously (imo, way to much). we have official practice times, where its drills, drills and drills. if you show up at a league game without wearing black shoes, black pants and the official team shirt, you cant play. this mentality paints a clear picture about team sports in germany and other tight ass continental western european countries. order has to be maintained. lol.
that said, it aint all bad. if you start out playing, you will learn quicker being observed and playing drills. there is a very different mentality about in europe compared to the us.
being on this forum for a short while, can anybody tell me about their experience playing with compton custom cues, i've seen a couple of post by their representative jcaction, who...is...a...superbly...sane...poster...and...according...to...his...profile...also...a...fabulous...cuemaker
 
ryan mccreesh, u suck. i took over, get the f out of azbilliards. darren will 3-foul u eleven times, one-handed, blindfolded and shitfaced drunk in the first round of the us open 2011
 
I lived in Germany for 10 years. I played on league teams there, played in tournaments from local weeklies to national events. I played in the Oeberliga which is the third highest league under the Bundesliga, which is the professional level. Oeberliga is about the middle class.

Players there are just like players here. Some of them are super disciplined and do drills until their arms fall off and some of them just throw balls out and most are in between.

If you have a coach then that coach is highly likely to make you do drills because that's what coaches are there for.

When I coach people I make them do drills but I also make them solve problems. You need both to be a complete player. Drills keep your fundamentals sound, free play allows your creativity to come out and teaches you to think on your feet.

I am pretty sure that the English don't train like the Germans. People are different all over. However Thorsten is right in the sense that the Germans treat it more like a sport and train that way. On the German teams there is often some structured practice time where the team members get together to work on their game. They often bring in guest coaches and review videos/books magazine articles etc.... in other words the club itself is a conduit for players to become students of the game.

This is something that is practically non-existent in the USA. In America most players are pretty much on their own as far as finding instruction, having structured practice with others, and being part of a community of like minded teammates dedicated to getting better and moving up together.

So for that reason the approach to becoming a good player in America is a highly individual and often unique path.

As we see though through results at world events that doesn't mean that the players each enviroment turns out are neccessarily better or worse than others.

In the same time when Oliver Ortmann and Ralf Souquet had four World Championships between them Johnny Archer amassed five and Earl Strickland has 2 or 3. Just seven years ago I think Earl Strickland won his last World Chamionship over Francisco Bustamante.

All pros have good to great years and also not-so-good years. Darren has come into his own these past few years and gathered some titles. But that doesn't make him "the best" it just makes him the "best" at the events he won.

Stats can be traded all day long. They honestly don't mean much on a per match level. In any given match with any other top professional player Darren Appleton has as much chance to lose that match as to win it.

What's special about Darren is that he belongs to an elite group of players who are the very best in the world at what they do. It's not because he is from England or that the English have some super special training regimen. It's simply that he is the one of the best guys from there and has taken his place among the best in the world.

You know what kind of bugs me?

All these "backers" in the USA who profess to love to gamble won't bet a quarter on actually TRAINING their players.

Imagine for a moment if some of these wealthy guys got together and put together several teams of players and got them some coaches and structured training in return for a percentage of the winnings? What would that look like if the American players were a sharp as razor blades, focused, determined and BACKED properly with a team behind them?

Imagine a situation where these elite teams were organized by performance and the players knew they had to put in the time or be off the team? What if we had hundreds or thousands of younger players whose goals were to get good enough and post the results to be invited onto these teams?

We could change and we don't need goverment support. But the fact is that we don't want to change. We want to complain that pool is in the dumps in the USA, we want to complain that no one wants to sponsor pool or pool players. But we don't give anyone anything but a loose collection of indivual players hapahazardly running around playing in one-off events.

Why not start with the one thing that is totally under our control? Ourselves. Why don't some of these wealthy backers who love the action step in and create their own teams to go and snap off tournaments?

I guarantee if they did this then eventually such teams would be backed by companies and groups.

And before someone posts up that CSI is doing this, no they aren't. They have a few players who wear the patch but these players are scattered all over the country, they don't train together, they don't have coaches, they aren't yet a "team" in the sense that I mean it.

Just my thoughts.
 
"We will?"

....and get your money up is all I can say.....in twenty years usa will still be up there on top for several reasons.....we are classier players.....the knowladge from years passed is here. And purer strokes and better metal games under fire for the cash:........

This may seem a little unrelated at first, but bear with me.

20 or 30 years ago the best pool players in this country, gambled and played in every tournament they could find, providing they weren't barred for winning ALL THE TIME! How much does everybody on top, play today? I know it's safe to say, LESS. No middle class working stiff's to hustle at every corner pool room, and damn, for the most part, very few, if any major pool rooms left across the mid-west! Without money, that way of doing business as a pro, is pretty much a thing of the past. One thing hasn't changed though, you wanna be the best, gotta hit balls and play "ALL THE TIME!!!"

The new model for a player seems to be, go to every BIG tournament and play with all the other top players from all around the globe. Now don't get me wrong, this method of attaining proficiency at this sport has it's positive sides, too, but it cost a whole lot more money, at a time when that stuff is in short supply. For a top pool-player in the U.S. to keep up with the level of competition and play, in the rest of the world,and especially the East, there will have to be a new model of how to survive these changes in the economy.

I read this in another thread, last week, College kid asked how to keep the expense of his practice time down. I wanted say, you wanna be a pool player or go to s-c-h-o-o-l? (This has nothing to do with the smart money bet!) You wanna play pool, find a warm environment to live in, (1) a place where there's a lot of working class people with jobs, (2) a couple of pool rooms, (3) a university, and (4) an active younger generation night life, and move there. Now to a hustler from the 70's this probably sounds like paradise! Cause, if there's 1.money, 2.pool rooms,3. kids with daddy's money, and 4.bars with pool tables, you've got the basics to have an income a develop your pool skills every waking moment!

Think this scenario is even economically possible anywhere in the U.S. today? Constant, hustling, gambling with other players, and tournament play, now that's what made the previous generations of top U.S. pool-players the best and TOUGH, too! Modern players in this country have inherited a lot of knowledge but not enough opportunity to professionally harden them up. 20 years have passed away already and now we're watching the rest of the world "OWN THIS SPORT!" We sit on a Knifes-edge, in peril of losing some of our best tournaments, right NOW! If England and Europe are even contenders at this table, "THINGS HAVE ALREADY DRASTICALLY CHANGED!"

I'm not saying Appleton was right, but if Bustamante, or Orcollo, had said that the ballance of power had shifted permanently to the East, "would anybody involved in pool have doubted it?":idea:
 
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World 10-ball the last years Immonen and Appleton
US Open the last years Immonen and Appleton
World 9-ball 2007 Daryl Peach
World 14-1 the last years, hohmann, feijen, ortmann and stephan cohen

Guess they just got lucky :)

Wasn't the winner the of the 2010 US Open Bar Table Championship 8 Ball lucky also ?? You forgot to mention that .
 
Forgive me, but I'll tip my hat and say well played to Team Europe.

Appleton has talked the talk and, given his run of a US Open title, a Mosconi Cup victory, and the MVP award in the Mosconi Cup, he has walked the walk.

Best, though, is to celebrate the continuing emergence of the Europeans as great players. With the Americans, the Asians and the Europeans playing such great pool, we, the fans, are assured of lots of memorable competition.

These rivalries are great for our sport. Let's enjoy them rather than bemoaning the pride that every player and fan takes in the accomplishments of those he/she prefers.

Not only are the fans treated to some memorable competition with the continuing emergence of top lay displayed by the European players but all players are given the opportunity to improve their personal level of competition because of the increased competition.

I hope Darren's new grip continues to help him play his best pool. It will only spur on all of his future competition to improve their skills.

I am kind of curious as to who helped him with the grip as well as the coach he was talking about in one of his interviews.

When Darren comes down from the mountain, maybe he can enlighten us about these two items.
 
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