ARAMITH BALLS: "That's how I roll!"

[lfigueroa]

It wasn't SJD that was trying to stir things up. As far as I can see certain people add nothing to this place, other than product placement or risible shills for their banned buddies. That they chose to do so in all the colours of the rainbow only draws attention to it.

Oh, coincidentally, no CTE user won any of the latest GB9 events, and the winners weren't using OB products, Joey. Still, thank you for your interest in what is one of the best national tours around.

Correcto mundo.

There was an episode of "The Dog Whisperer" a few years ago where a couple invited him into their home because their big dog was always instigating fights with their other dogs. So Cesar Millan observes the dogs for a while and eventually says to the owners, "It's not the big dog that's the trouble maker, it's the little one over there.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Baby Huey]

Aramith Balls are very good. But like Master Chalk, it's really the only thing we have available to play with. I believe Centennials are made and sold by Aramith. We have weighed and measured them at the pool hall and they come out with very close tolerances to their specifications. I do believe they are a bit grittier then old Centennials though. I think they grab the rail and other balls a bit longer when struck and come off with wider angles.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Aramith's Statement Addresses Quality but there's also...

This is just food for thought..........and the Aramith article only adds another consideration.

Weighted analysis: 81.5% preferred Aramith's Brunswick Centennial......... "4 out of 5 Azers."

Poll Results: Which Set Do Your Prefer (Centennial vs. Cyclop)
Voters: 115. Duration: 30 days........Poll: closed
Design (appearance) was the only voting criterion.

Brunswick Centennial 84 73.04%
Cyclop Traditional Color 13 11.30%
Cyclop Skittles Color 6 5.22%
Neither....Appearance Inconsequential 12 10.43%

 

[sfleinen]

^^^ It looks like the Aramith marketing machine is working overtime, to include the non-paid(?) marketing droids.

 

[jhanso18]

In most cases, when there is a new up and comer in ANY industry, whether pool balls, cars, bikes, motorcycles, any number of other places. When a product is created that is of a significant threat to profits, it is easier to discredit than it is to compete. Even if the "competitor" isn't quite as good, they're good enough to cause enough of a loss to profits that they need addressing.

If it is Cyclop balls they're talking about, I can tell you for a fact Aramith should be scared. IMO, Cyclop balls at the very least are a close equivalent at only 60-70% the price. If you ask most players which they prefer, with all things considered, including PRICE, I would be willing to bet in an unbiased test the Cyclops win out.

The whole article is an interesting read, but my first hand experience with both balls says this is mostly smoke and mirrors to discredit the competition.

 

[lfigueroa]

In most cases, when there is a new up and comer in ANY industry, whether pool balls, cars, bikes, motorcycles, any number of other places. When a product is created that is of a significant threat to profits, it is easier to discredit than it is to compete. Even if the "competitor" isn't quite as good, they're good enough to cause enough of a loss to profits that they need addressing.

If it is Cyclop balls they're talking about, I can tell you for a fact Aramith should be scared. IMO, Cyclop balls at the very least are a close equivalent at only 60-70% the price. If you ask most players which they prefer, with all things considered, including PRICE, I would be willing to bet in an unbiased test the Cyclops win out.

The whole article is an interesting read, but my first hand experience with both balls says this is mostly smoke and mirrors to discredit the competition.

I think you've summed it up nicely. In any case the horse is out of the barn on this one and the Aramith press release is about a year too late.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Bavafongoul]

Well, I didn't want to believe it but I guess it's true in politics and pool as well......some folks just ignore facts....hard core, empirical information that's totally irrefutable to any normal, level-headed person......It's akin to debating climate change with the ignorant minded........3 out of 4 AZers surveyed prefer Brunswick Centennials......that's a proven fact. And after adjusting for Azers polled whom did not express any preference, that ratio climbs to 4 out of 5 Azers prefer Centennial pool balls to cyclop pool balls.

You can't change the survey results since it's unbiased and "factual":....I know facts tend to upset you....like the sea level on Rhode Island has risen 9" inches over the last 150 years......yeah, that's not true either.........so go start your own poll and rig the results....fix the numbers.....and I betcha you'll embrace & cite those facts even if the information is false.

 

[leto1776]

What does your poll have to do with any of this? This thread is discussing an Aramith press release.not Centenniel balls.

 

[Bavafongoul]

It is a adjunct to some of the other posts.

 

[sfleinen]

In most cases, when there is a new up and comer in ANY industry, whether pool balls, cars, bikes, motorcycles, any number of other places. When a product is created that is of a significant threat to profits, it is easier to discredit than it is to compete. Even if the "competitor" isn't quite as good, they're good enough to cause enough of a loss to profits that they need addressing.

If it is Cyclop balls they're talking about, I can tell you for a fact Aramith should be scared. IMO, Cyclop balls at the very least are a close equivalent at only 60-70% the price. If you ask most players which they prefer, with all things considered, including PRICE, I would be willing to bet in an unbiased test the Cyclops win out.

The whole article is an interesting read, but my first hand experience with both balls says this is mostly smoke and mirrors to discredit the competition.

I think you've summed it up nicely. In any case the horse is out of the barn on this one and the Aramith press release is about a year too late.

Lou Figueroa

Agreed. In product marketing, the fleet-footed almost always win. In this case, Aramith are proving to be the big, slow-moving sloth.

It's one thing to have a superior product and really believe in it. It's quite another to be so closed-eyed content with your position, that you don't see the quick-moving competitor creeping up on you, that then whacks you over the head crisply.

Examples of this "closed-eyed contentedness" abound, pretty much no matter the industry. I work in such an industry, and in this case, it's Cisco Systems who are the ones being crisply whacked over the head by a faster-moving competitor (HP):

http://crn.com/news/networking/300073048/cisco-down-hp-up-in-declining-ethernet-switching-market.htm

And the same thing happened to the American auto-maker industry as well. Close your eyes and "revel" in your position, and the next thing you're going to see are stars, as well as hearing the resounding thud upside your head.

-Sean

 

[AtLarge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bxBqVyQnSw

At 3:35, Paul Smith of Diamond talks about phenolic manufacturing process and mentions Aramith. About 30 seconds later he mentions that "typical phenolic balls are around 57-58%". Although he didn't directly imply that Aramith balls are 57-58%, is that what they wanted us to infer? That seems awfully low.

It's interesting that the Cyclop/Diamond folks in this interview seem to say that the Cyclop balls (relative to Aramith balls -- unstated which ones) have a higher phenolic resin content, tighter specs, a harder surface, produce less collision-induced throw, and have a longer "useful playing life."

Ivan Lee (Aramith), on the other hand, says that the competitor's balls (Cyclop unstated) have a lower phenolic content (85% vs. Aramith's 98%), fail to meet the claimed weight specs, use a lower quality resin that is full of bubbles, and are overpriced for a set that is of about the same quality as the Aramith Premier balls. So, essentially, Lee is saying that Saluc makes 4 lines of balls that are better than the Cyclop balls: Aramith Tournament, Super Aramith Pro (and, therefore, Brunswick Centennial), and Aramith Premium. And Lee may also be suggesting that Saluc's environmental standards are better.

With the force of Diamond behind the Cyclop balls, it will be interesting to see where this all goes over the next decade.

Thanks to Daniel Busch for that interview with Paul Smith of Diamond Billiards and Adrian Wang of the company that makes Cyclop balls.

 

[9andout]

Hmmm. Made in China. No thanks. I routinely pay a little more for many items to avoid supporting that place.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I like Aramith balls for sure. But I have always had an issue with the way they handle certain things.

I have contacted them several times by email asking them the spec's on their ball sets, and cue balls. They have sometimes replied, but the replies did not really address my questions.

I wanted to know what the target weight was. They wouldn't say. At least in this article by them, they say they are aiming for 169.5g. However, the way they make there case is not very smart. If you read what they claim carefully, it isn't a very compelling argument.

They ridicule the other manufacturer for having variation as big as 2 grams. They then go on to say that their set has a tolerance of +/- 1.5 grams. Um...hello? That is a variation of up to 3 grams. So unless I'm misreading it, they say 2 is crappy, then point out how they are 3?

Anyway, they still make nice ball sets, they just really stink at information distribution.

KMRUNOUT

 

[sfleinen]

I like Aramith balls for sure. But I have always had an issue with the way they handle certain things.

I have contacted them several times by email asking them the spec's on their ball sets, and cue balls. They have sometimes replied, but the replies did not really address my questions.

I wanted to know what the target weight was. They wouldn't say. At least in this article by them, they say they are aiming for 169.5g. However, the way they make there case is not very smart. If you read what they claim carefully, it isn't a very compelling argument.

They ridicule the other manufacturer for having variation as big as 2 grams. They then go on to say that their set has a tolerance of +/- 1.5 grams. Um...hello? That is a variation of up to 3 grams. So unless I'm misreading it, they say 2 is crappy, then point out how they are 3?

Anyway, they still make nice ball sets, they just really stink at information distribution.

KMRUNOUT

Great post, KM!

The bolded really nails it -- the average consumer, who they probably are thinking is going to be your average blue-collar pool player -- "won't pick up" on the fact that their math-positioning is just all wrong. They're relying on creative verbiage -- e.g. "variation of 2 grams is 'more than' +/- 1.5 grams" playing-with-numbers to mislead the reader. Put correctly: Cyclop's variation of +/- 1 gram is better than Aramith's +/- 1.5 grams. It's just stone-cold misleading marketing on the part of Aramith.

-Sean

 

[AtLarge]

... I wanted to know what the target weight was. They wouldn't say. At least in this article by them, they say they are aiming for 169.5g.

I don't think Ivan Lee is saying that the Aramith target is 169.5g; that's the Cyclop target.

However, the way they make there case is not very smart. If you read what they claim carefully, it isn't a very compelling argument.

They ridicule the other manufacturer for having variation as big as 2 grams. They then go on to say that their set has a tolerance of +/- 1.5 grams. Um...hello? That is a variation of up to 3 grams. So unless I'm misreading it, they say 2 is crappy, then point out how they are 3?

Anyway, they still make nice ball sets, they just really stink at information distribution.

KMRUNOUT

Great post, KM!

The bolded really nails it -- the average consumer, who they probably are thinking is going to be your average blue-collar pool player -- "won't pick up" on the fact that their math-positioning is just all wrong. They're relying on creative verbiage -- e.g. "variation of 2 grams is 'more than' +/- 1.5 grams" playing-with-numbers to mislead the reader. Put correctly: Cyclop's variation of +/- 1 gram is better than Aramith's +/- 1.5 grams. It's just stone-cold misleading marketing on the part of Aramith.

-Sean

I wouldn't read it as intentionally deceiving. I think Ivan Lee is just pointing out that the Cyclop ball sets he has seen fail to meet their claimed tight weight spec, whereas "Aramith has never claimed false specs." But, yes, 2 or 2½ is less than 3.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Actually it's not 3 grams, it's +/- 1.5 grams from the target, meaning that a set might be that different as a set, by picking balls that all come close to each other regardless how far they are from target, all deviating aprox. the same, being the aprox. the same between them.
But honestly, I already pointed out the Cyclop CB behavior issue, which in my opinion is the most significant difference between them and Aramith CBs. Cyclop CB feels lighter than OBs, seems to roll uneven, maintaining less english.
A lot of players, top ones included, have certainly noticed this and I'm a bit surprised it's not talked about enough, at least on this thread..
I'm not taking sides, I believe if the Cyclop CB changes competition will be higher between the two companies in terms of quality.
Petros

 

[SJDinPHX]

Hmmm. Made in China. No thanks. I routinely pay a little more for many items to avoid supporting that place.

9andout, two GREAT minds..etc !......(From post #16->>>)

....Call me foolish, but I will pay a little more, for the genuine article, if I think it helps maintain OUR standard of living, rather than support a socialist communist anarchy, that has absolutely NO qualms, about industrial thievery ! (and allows its billion man work force, to be paid a mere pittance for their labor)

 

[Johnnyt]

When Aramith cuts its tournament sponsorship 50% or more, will Cyclop pick that up too. I think not. IMO balls that cost over $75 is a joke. "They cost more. They must be better." Johnnyt

 

[jtaylor996]

Actually it's not 3 grams, it's +/- 1.5 grams from the target, meaning that a set might be that different as a set, by picking balls that all come close to each other regardless how far they are from target, all deviating aprox. the same, being the aprox. the same between them.

Just to clarify, aramith will make a set of super pro or centennial within 0.1g for the entire set. However, that whole set may be up to 1.5g from the target, but the set itself is perfectly matched. They are saying cyclop are showing a 2g variance within a single set (whereas a super pro set would show 0.2 g variance within the set).

 

[Black-Balled]

it's a *****y move by Aramith

outside of weight tolerance which may or may not be true everything else is total bs

set up a verifiable series of tests, allow public rebuttal, and then call yourselve's kings

btw, i have super pros and love em

I agree that it is a first step by saluc to respond to cyclop's challenge to its monopoly on high end balls.

Hopefully it has more up its sleeve- like a better product at a more reasonable cost.

The super pros lose their finish too quickly, are damaged by normal breaking, hold chalk too readily an cost too damn much.

Saluc: bring it.