Are Moori & Kamui tips really worth the money or is it all hype?

rorywayne said:
You can parcel post in thousands of tips, with no import fees. It happens all the time. And even if you paid the imports, it would not increase the price of the tip from $14 to $19, if you think that, then you know very little about imports. My company in Houston imports things in from all over the world, daily. I see these costs, as I am the manager.

I tried the black, I fouind it much too hard, I played the brown a while, yes, its a damn fine tip, played very good and it grabbed the ball better. The real question is not if its good, it is, the question is any tip worth $20 when there is a slew of stuff out there from $5 to $12. It just seems like they keep raising these prices higher and higher, because we keep putting up with it and buying.

Now we have the Onyx black tiger at $22, where does this end, $30 a tip next year?

I was paying 25 cents for a cube of blue masters, now they are telling me I have to fork over $3.50 for a cube of blue diamond. Bend over america. It just feels like, we are getting ripped off by hype here.
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You said you tried the black and it was too hard.... There are 4 grades of hardness for both the brown and the black tips. I personally play with a black super soft and no one would ever say this tip is too hard. (it doesn't mushroom either :grin-square:)

Dud
 
Dakota Cues said:
Old Pro's Never Used Layered Tip Stupidity:
This has got to be the DUMBEST line I've ever heard, and it comes up over and over again. The great's of the 50's and 60's didn't use Layered tips for the same reason that the golfing greats of that era didn't use graphite shafts - THEY DIDN'T EXIST!!!!

What has happened is that the game has evolved. Things like layered tips and Low Deflection shafts have taken a lot of player's games to a new level that was not possible before. Are there top players that don't use either? Yes. But there are also a whole slew of pro's that swear by BOTH. Again it's all personal preference, but saying they "Didn't use (whatever) back when it didn't exist shows total ignorance since it doesn't take into account all those players who *would* have tried something and played even better. [/SIZE][/B]
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Not so sure I agree with the line of thought, and here's why:

'Back in the day'...these guys were more focused on getting a game and pocketing balls. The game was the focus, not the equipment. Sure, they would pick up a pretty cue here and there...when they had the scratch, and some would sell them off just as quickly. They weren't seeking out the 'holy grail' of playing cues. If you would have run up and said, "hey mister, this is the latest greatest shaft/tip!" You would have more likely gotten a "sure kid, now get a 100 ball run and come back and talk to me."

After a while, some folks who had a love for the game, and watching it grow, particularly after the advent of TCOM, began to see opportunities. As with any activity that gains popularity...we began to see specialized equipment. And that trend has continued over the years.

I am not a Luddite...but I do sometimes feel that some get more wrapped up in the latest and greatest, than do putting their focus into the game itself. What I do NOT like is people telling me that if I don't play with the latest and greatest, then I can't possibly be playing my best game.

Lisa
 
ridewiththewind said:
Not so sure I agree with the line of thought, and here's why:

'Back in the day'...these guys were more focused on getting a game and pocketing balls. The game was the focus, not the equipment. Sure, they would pick up a pretty cue here and there...when they had the scratch, and some would sell them off just as quickly. They weren't seeking out the 'holy grail' of playing cues. If you would have run up and said, "hey mister, this is the latest greatest shaft/tip!" You would have more likely gotten a "sure kid, now get a 100 ball run and come back and talk to me."

After a while, some folks who had a love for the game, and watching it grow, particularly after the advent of TCOM, began to see opportunities. As with any activity that gains popularity...we began to see specialized equipment. And that trend has continued over the years.

I am not a Luddite...but I do sometimes feel that some get more wrapped up in the latest and greatest, than do putting their focus into the game itself. What I do NOT like is people telling me that if I don't play with the latest and greatest, then I can't possibly be playing my best game.

Lisa
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Lisa,

Nice, but you missed the point. The reason the argument is "Flawed" is because the equipment never existed back then, so the top players did NOT make a choice to avoid it.

We will never know if Mosconi would have liked an LD shaft, or a layered tip since he never had the opportunity to try one. I for one think he would have tried them out just in case they *did* give him an edge. Especially if you are correct when you say that,


ridewiththewind said:
"Back in the day'...these guys were more focused on getting a game and pocketing balls."
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If those 2 items would have helped them pocket more balls, or at least made a claim to do so, I can bet you they would have tried them. Would they have liked them? Maybe.

But tried them? I would bet my life on that one....
 
My practise partner had Moori tips put on his old and new snooker cues. He says they're better than any other tip he has used and that they're worth the money. I haven't used Moori tips, myself, but I'm skeptical about them. I can generate a lot cue power and very deep backscrew and I just use a run-of-the-mill Le Professionel tip. I'll consider giving it a try since I've been having a real problem with deflection with these recent tips.
 
I think if you watch the older players Mosconi,Wimpy,Crane these guys were into stroke and position were they didn't really hit shots very hard. Yes they would have tried them but I'll bet they wouldn't really utilize the playing characteristics of Lam shafts or layered tips although if anything a layered tip might be a first choice over a lam shaft. Don't forget most of these guys had access to wonderful cue technology for there time frame and the wood in there shafts was probably so solid and tight they didn't need low deflection shafts. Now with that said Lam shafts and different tips might have been preferred by them if available for 9 ball which in general has a higher precentage of harder hitting shots due to the game. I think though the argument on tips and shafts is like argueing religion and politics,everyone has an opinion and most are right!
 
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Dakota Cues said:
Lux,

I didn't think snooker players used enough English to even encounter deflection???
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Well, we use it quite frequently. (We call it side by the way.) Some players don't use side often because of the wildcard factor that it introduces from deflection-- remember, snooker cues are quite slender and susceptible to amplifying poor technique and striking off-centre. I play side in about 50 to 70 per cent of my shots. In practical examples, side spin is used: to force the white to reach the baulk cushion in safety play, to control throw and avoid cannoning into other balls for long pots, to force angles when stunning off of the top cushion when playing around the black ball, and, my favourite, applying heavy side with deep backscrew to forcefully widen the angle that the cue ball runs off of a cushion or into the pack of reds. Heavy side is also used on every break off shot at the start of each frame to steer the white ball back to the baulk cushion.

Well anyway, the point is that deflection is quite prevailent in snooker where side spin is played. The cues can only be so thick and the dead-centre contact area on the cue ball is very narrow compared to pool, so it is easy to unintentionally strike it unevenly and therefore deflect the white off of its path. My mate's new cue has almost zero deflection (about 1mm thicker, maple instead of ash, and using Moori tip) which is why I'm considering changing tips to one of these exotic brands. Sometimes he thinks he's using a pool cue because of how easy it is to play side in shots.
 
I just had a Med. Moori cut off my Chris Nitti and replaced it with a Triangle. I am so happy I did, for me the cue hits the balls so much better. Solid and a ton of spin when needed, no problem.
 
Kamuitipsdotcom said:
Hi Enzo,

Thank you for your reply. I think I answered the question already.. But let me ask this so I can better answer you.

Describe to me a tip that plays (in your mind) 20 times better.
What characteristics does it have
What playability it has
What consistency it has.(meaning the same tip every time you install it)

If you can answer these questions I will get it to the manufacture.

Kamui tips was born by a player... And improved by players.

We are NEVER satisfied with our product. So, help us help you.
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Thanks once again for your nice replies. People keep saying the same thing, not necessarily you, but i'm not saying the tip isn't worth $20, im saying that if you got into some sort of benefit vs cost ratio contest with triangle... you're tip would lose by huge (20) orders of magnitude. That is abysmal in any field, business, or sports. And considering this fact (to me it is definitely fact), what would your company consider doing about this.... maybe... ir maybe cutting your prices etc. I take it you're say you'd consider doing nothing and are happy with a product that is perhaps only slightly better, yet costs 20 times more. Again, maybe 10 times more cost would be more appropriate, maybe 5? Perhaps more people would try and use kamuis in the future if they were cheaper.

As to your questions... im not sure how to answer... there is no tip that plays 20 times better, there are only, at best, high quality tips like yours that play only a fraction better... that is the whole point.... so how can you justify charging 20 times the price?

But anyway, i guess its moot... thanks again!
 
I don't have a dog in this hunt but your analogy does not hold up enzo. The relevant costs are not Triangle's but Kamui's. What is the cost of production, R&D, marketing, distribution etc. Maybe Triangle is happy with a lower margin? If Kamui indeed lasts longer how does that factor into the perceived value? What is fewer miscues, lower maintenance time, lower rejection rate worth to customers?

You can drink Ripple or $100+ bottles of wine and get drunk on either. You can buy $15 shoes at Wal-Mart or hundreds on Italian leather. Both serve the same function but meet different needs of their customers.

The appropriate cost is whatever price point provides a suitable profit margin and allows them to hold or increase market share. Kamui must be doing something right or someone would have come in with a similar product and taken their customers.

Order of magnitude refers to scaling (like Richter), I take it you meant multiple.
 
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again, im pretty much over this, but i dont think people get the point really. f you want to charge 20 times more for something, say a car, youd better have some serious advantages. same thing goes for dvd players, or pretty much anything you can think of. just because we are talking about tips, why do things change? i i would hope pool players would not pay for a name, so the wine analogy doesnt not hold up, that is not the same type thing, same thing wish say designer jeans, people pay for a name... that is a choice and i see it as fine.

pool tips on the other hand arent designer jeans.... it is a product that people will pay for results. the "results" from a triangle tip clearly arent inferior in the range of orders of magnitude (20 in this case). im simply asking why kamui isnt more competitive on the price, they are being completely outdone (weather people know it or not), and im wondering why they dont want to bridge this gap, at least to a certain extent, when it comes to cost vs benefit. that is my question, and it was never answered, so one has to assume they are comfortable being outdone by a competitor, and hope to sell as many clearly WAY overpriced tips (as notice the answer i received mentioned kamui is the best, there was nothing about how their production and research forced their pricepoint this high) to players who will buy them, trying to make a "big score" if you will on each tip, and not going for volume. anyway.... no need to discuss further, really. thanks all! good thread!

look, one last shot.... if you build golf clubs, spend years researching them, devloping... make the best golf clubs on earth... well, great! but charge 20 times more for them and tell me what happens. this is the same exact thing here, the only difference is kamui is taking advantage of reltively low pricepoints, and thus people are willing (blindly perhaps) to pay-- thats great, good for them. im again just asking why they dont want to be more competitive or if thats impossible for them.
 
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rorywayne said:
I was recently in Japan, and I saw them being sold, conversion from yen to usd, at about $14.00, so explain why they are $19 here.

Its the middle man here, making the profit. It costs next to nothing to mail thousands of them over here. If you dont believe me, go on the net, surf, and you will see, just get on a Japanese dealer site selling cues.

Its the same problem with the Moori, and Kamui, they only sell to one guy here, and all competition goes out the window. Then greed kicks in, and you have a $20 tip.
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I would guess ,cause were willing to pay for them.I know here in canada that even sports betting like Proline will adjust there payouts. If a certain province isn't buying as much they will make the payouts alot better for the people, but in a place were it still played alot they don't adjust until it's necessary.If the sales start dropping on tips,next thing you know they'll offer up a great deal on them.Everyone that sells something is trying to make a profit of course.For me its finding the guy thats not looking to make a killing off me.:)
 
rorywayne said:
You can parcel post in thousands of tips, with no import fees. It happens all the time. And even if you paid the imports, it would not increase the price of the tip from $14 to $19, if you think that, then you know very little about imports. My company in Houston imports things in from all over the world, daily. I see these costs, as I am the manager.

I tried the black, I fouind it much too hard, I played the brown a while, yes, its a damn fine tip, played very good and it grabbed the ball better. The real question is not if its good, it is, the question is any tip worth $20 when there is a slew of stuff out there from $5 to $12. It just seems like they keep raising these prices higher and higher, because we keep putting up with it and buying.

Now we have the Onyx black tiger at $22, where does this end, $30 a tip next year?

I was paying 25 cents for a cube of blue masters, now they are telling me I have to fork over $3.50 for a cube of blue diamond. Bend over america. It just feels like, we are getting ripped off by hype here.
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Totally agree that the Blue Diamond Chalk is all hype.Most miscues are due to a poor stroke.It doen't last any longer and is just as messy.I watch guys miscue because they chalk after there 3rd shot or not dress it properly when they do chalk.But I guess at the end of the day if spending 5.00 a cube makes you more confident and helps you win is far cheaper than the 150.00 dollars your going to spend on booze after you lose.Goodluck
 
I really like the Moori tips and Kamui tips, if I cannot find one of these I will take a Hercules tip, not the H2 though. I have played with a cue here and there that had the standard Le Pro and it was not bad but its like a crap shoot, its either good or terrible, the Kamui and Moori tips are consistent. Hercules tips are a little hit and miss too, I have had them delaminate on me.
 
here's my thing on this....i've bought a box of triangle tips for i think it was ten bucks, and found about two out of the box that actually played up to my standards, with he higher priced tips(not just kamui) i have found more consistency and seems like more attn to detail to make sure the customer gets what they pay for. I know like another gentleman says i dont have a dog in this hunt im just giving my opinion
 
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