Are Moori & Kamui tips really worth the money or is it all hype?
- Thread starter jmurphy
- Start date
I played with a Moori Quick for a while on my Lucasi cue. Then went to Triangle, then Elkmaster, then Moori M, then Sniper. Then back to Elkmaster. I did like the Moori Q, but I didnt get alot of action, even with a good stroke.
Had an Everest on my 314-2 and used it for a while, but put an Elkmaster on. Love it. I can't do all sorts of amazing draw shots, but if I think about it....I haven't needed to, lol.
I've been thinking of trying a Kamui SS, just for the hell of it, to see how it feels and plays. I just don't want to spend $20, get the tip on, then not really love the tip. I mean Elks cost less than $0.50 to get, so no biggy if one falls off, etc.
Had an Everest on my 314-2 and used it for a while, but put an Elkmaster on. Love it. I can't do all sorts of amazing draw shots, but if I think about it....I haven't needed to, lol.
I've been thinking of trying a Kamui SS, just for the hell of it, to see how it feels and plays. I just don't want to spend $20, get the tip on, then not really love the tip. I mean Elks cost less than $0.50 to get, so no biggy if one falls off, etc.
I tried a Triangle, for 5 weeks. What attracted me to Triangle tips were the reviews on here. I tried one, liked it, said I wouldnt ever spend more money on a 'brand' tip again...now I'm back with a Branded tip. Its not that I didnt like the Triangle, far from it, its a very nice tip if you have managed to find a good one (as I did)...but I felt I was trying way to hard to get the action I required for a certain shot - meaning my stroke wasnt good.
For me, Kamui's are worth the price; to others, they are not. This world would be a boring place if we all liked the same things!
I'd disagree with that, labor costs in Japan, depending on the area, are either on par or higher than those in the US. Someone could create a tip with the same quality control and such here, they just have chosen not to.
But that said, I love my Kamui tip
rorywayne
Banned
tips
I was recently in Japan, and I saw them being sold, conversion from yen to usd, at about $14.00, so explain why they are $19 here.
Its the middle man here, making the profit. It costs next to nothing to mail thousands of them over here. If you dont believe me, go on the net, surf, and you will see, just get on a Japanese dealer site selling cues.
Its the same problem with the Moori, and Kamui, they only sell to one guy here, and all competition goes out the window. Then greed kicks in, and you have a $20 tip.
I was recently in Japan, and I saw them being sold, conversion from yen to usd, at about $14.00, so explain why they are $19 here.
Its the middle man here, making the profit. It costs next to nothing to mail thousands of them over here. If you dont believe me, go on the net, surf, and you will see, just get on a Japanese dealer site selling cues.
Its the same problem with the Moori, and Kamui, they only sell to one guy here, and all competition goes out the window. Then greed kicks in, and you have a $20 tip.
I do not think I or anyone else has ever mentioned that the easiest tips to make are "hard" tips. A hard tip is simple... A "SOFT" tip is hard to make. We have to make a soft tip that does not mushroom.
Back to your question-----
We did have interest in creating a break tip but our Hard tips are perfect for breaking. We understood that the harder you make a tip the less control you have over the ball on the break. I personally use both a brown soft and a black soft between my matching shafts. I break with both of those tips and have not had troubles with the tips.
As for a Jump tip.... Well, you can take a Kamui Hard and fine tune it's elasticity by shortening the tip.
How's that for giving YOU (the player) the Playability of a Kamui Tip:wink:
Once you(the player) have your formula of KAMUI for your cues you now have the ability to improve your game.
Jumping from tip to tip and cue to cue is throwing off your game. How many times do you have to learn how to ride a bike? Learn it once and go have FUN!
Back to your question-----
We did have interest in creating a break tip but our Hard tips are perfect for breaking. We understood that the harder you make a tip the less control you have over the ball on the break. I personally use both a brown soft and a black soft between my matching shafts. I break with both of those tips and have not had troubles with the tips.
As for a Jump tip.... Well, you can take a Kamui Hard and fine tune it's elasticity by shortening the tip.
How's that for giving YOU (the player) the Playability of a Kamui Tip:wink:
Once you(the player) have your formula of KAMUI for your cues you now have the ability to improve your game.
Jumping from tip to tip and cue to cue is throwing off your game. How many times do you have to learn how to ride a bike? Learn it once and go have FUN!
Great inside information!
---
A question from me if you will...
Are Kamui looking to expand out more with their tips and design Jump/Break Tips? Be interesteing to know where the company is going also
The fact you are forgetting is that the US charges tariffs on the import of foreign made goods. I'm not an expert, but I believe leather cue tips fall under the same tariff classification as footwear (as it is made from tanned leather). The US likes to stick a high tariff percentage to goods in that category.
Brian
Kamui tips are the culmination of a lot of time, research, trial and error, and some fancy manufacturing equipment. All of this equates to a substantial amount of money.
Sure, you see a tiny leather tip worth merely a few pennies, but the process in which the tip was conceived is far more complicated than you give credit for.
And yet at $20 per tip, people will quickly blame greed. What do you propose, that Kamui slash their prices and be forced to sell a billion tips to stay in business? They are an international company who produces the best tips on the planet. As far as I'm concerned, they deserve to make a profit, which I might add, after expenses is dramatically lower than one might likely assume.
I shake my head at comments like this every time I log onto the forum. It's like it's a crime to make a dollar in this industry. And yet everyone wonders why the game struggles, when it truth the reason is clear as day.
Oh, also forgot to mention, that due to the whole issue with importing goods, it is MUCH easier to have a single importer for your product. A lot less paperwork to deal with, especially when you're dealing with a product that is made from an animal. If you're a small company trying to do it with many places becomes very difficult.
Rory,
I appreciate your comment and I would love to entertain proof in a receipt. Did you buy any and get a receipt?
It does cost money to have thousands sent here. I know this because I pay the duty tax.
side note----KAMUIs are not the most expensive tip on the market BTW.
If you think I am being greedy. I will take personal offense to that. And I can prove you wrong in the non-lavish lifestyle I live.
I believe your observation is wrong... And here is why. Buy a Toyota in Japan... You will pay less, and shipping it here will be less than the final ticket would be buying a Toyota here. So, How are the dealerships and employees are supposed to survive?
IF I was greedy I would make the retail $25. Please do not mix the retail with the wholesale price. It is very easy to do that.
You can go to a Chinese web site and buy a Predator or a Lucasi... I am very sure for a lot cheaper than you would here in the USA. Are they greedy?
Kamui USA has the responsibility of marketing, advertising, and sponsorship $. All you have seen advertised, sponsored here was funded from Kamui USA.
I do not sell to players but to only Cue Makers and repair shops (tip fitters) They are the middle man offering you the "Service" and "Value" in their own brand. What they do for you is cheap.. And what I mean by cheap is, go and buy the equipment they have invested in. How many repairs would you have to do to just break even.
You may buy a Kamui, Moori, whatever, cheaper somewhere else but what are you telling the tip fitter who has the same product on his shelf?
My message to you is "Support your local Cue Maker" Without him, billiards would be boring! :thumbup:
I appreciate your comment and I would love to entertain proof in a receipt. Did you buy any and get a receipt?
It does cost money to have thousands sent here. I know this because I pay the duty tax.
side note----KAMUIs are not the most expensive tip on the market BTW.
If you think I am being greedy. I will take personal offense to that. And I can prove you wrong in the non-lavish lifestyle I live.
I believe your observation is wrong... And here is why. Buy a Toyota in Japan... You will pay less, and shipping it here will be less than the final ticket would be buying a Toyota here. So, How are the dealerships and employees are supposed to survive?
IF I was greedy I would make the retail $25. Please do not mix the retail with the wholesale price. It is very easy to do that.
You can go to a Chinese web site and buy a Predator or a Lucasi... I am very sure for a lot cheaper than you would here in the USA. Are they greedy?
Kamui USA has the responsibility of marketing, advertising, and sponsorship $. All you have seen advertised, sponsored here was funded from Kamui USA.
I do not sell to players but to only Cue Makers and repair shops (tip fitters) They are the middle man offering you the "Service" and "Value" in their own brand. What they do for you is cheap.. And what I mean by cheap is, go and buy the equipment they have invested in. How many repairs would you have to do to just break even.
You may buy a Kamui, Moori, whatever, cheaper somewhere else but what are you telling the tip fitter who has the same product on his shelf?
My message to you is "Support your local Cue Maker" Without him, billiards would be boring! :thumbup:
rorywayne
Banned
You can parcel post in thousands of tips, with no import fees. It happens all the time. And even if you paid the imports, it would not increase the price of the tip from $14 to $19, if you think that, then you know very little about imports. My company in Houston imports things in from all over the world, daily. I see these costs, as I am the manager.
I tried the black, I fouind it much too hard, I played the brown a while, yes, its a damn fine tip, played very good and it grabbed the ball better. The real question is not if its good, it is, the question is any tip worth $20 when there is a slew of stuff out there from $5 to $12. It just seems like they keep raising these prices higher and higher, because we keep putting up with it and buying.
Now we have the Onyx black tiger at $22, where does this end, $30 a tip next year?
I was paying 25 cents for a cube of blue masters, now they are telling me I have to fork over $3.50 for a cube of blue diamond. Bend over america. It just feels like, we are getting ripped off by hype here.
You can still get master blue for $0.25. No one makes you buy Blue Diamond. I use BD, and love it. 2 cubes will last me a year or so. Oh no, I pay about $30/year for my tip and my chalk. I could pay $5/year, _I_ choose not to. That is what the is great about a free market. You can pay find something in your price range. I don't see people going off on how much it costs to buy a SouthWest cue when you can buy one made in China for $10 at Walmart.
It is simple, if you think the tip is worth $20, then spend the $20. If you don't, then don't, there are plenty of other options, most of which do not give money back to the sport by sponsorship. I'm a big believer in sending my money to companies that help build the sport. Kamui is one of the. I'll gladly spend 10-20% more to buy from a company that is putting a portion of that back to help grow billiards.
Brian
It is not hype to us and to our players when we have the research and hard work to prove it. I have represented the Kamui brand for 7 years going on 8. If it was "hype" Kamui would not be here.
Come to think of it... The billiards industry is not effected by hype. If the players are buying the product and seeing the benefit in the use of the product and truth in the ADVERTISING... Where is the hype.
I think my next slogan will be Kamui Tips... No hype, just results.:grin-square:
Come to think of it... The billiards industry is not effected by hype. If the players are buying the product and seeing the benefit in the use of the product and truth in the ADVERTISING... Where is the hype.
I think my next slogan will be Kamui Tips... No hype, just results.:grin-square:
Should take a look at some of the web sites, both in the USA and Canada.
Mooris and Kamuis are being offered between 30 and 40.
So, if you think $20 is expensive. I wouldn't, couldn't buy and install a Kamui or a Moori for that matter for $20. Not worth my while.
I don't give my tips out for free. If you want quality, you have to pay for it.
I use Duds, California and Triangle tips on my personal cues anyway. I find that the balls seem to find their way into the pockets just the same.
Mooris and Kamuis are being offered between 30 and 40.
So, if you think $20 is expensive. I wouldn't, couldn't buy and install a Kamui or a Moori for that matter for $20. Not worth my while.
I don't give my tips out for free. If you want quality, you have to pay for it.
I use Duds, California and Triangle tips on my personal cues anyway. I find that the balls seem to find their way into the pockets just the same.
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Short Answer To Kamui vs. Moori Question: Kamui's are worth EVERY PENNY. Moori tips are not worth a penny!
This has, and will, be one of those things where opinions and personal preference matter far more than actual technology or price. By that I mean that players will use what they like, and will spend money trying to find something they like more, until they either like what they're using, or get sick of trying new things. For some people, part of the fun of playing is trying something new that *might* give them an edge, or just makes the game more enjoyable. If Brand "X" tip lets them draw the ball more than the one they are using currently, and it's more fun for them, they will buy that tip. Does it matter if they overuse draw (or english in general)? No. They are just happy that they can do it.
Bottom line: Use what you like and/or what fits your game best.
As for the price issue: If $20 is going to change the way you live, you're probably not playing pool with that $20 anyway.
Layered tip vs. Single layered tip debate:
I use 2 tips: Kamui Black S and now Triangles. I like the feel of both of these tips, and with my stroke, can pull off about any shot with the same amount of effort with either. The cost has never been a factor. What has been are things like: Feel, ability to hold chalk, how it stands up over time, etc. THOSE are the things that matter. Can you get them out of a good inexpensive (read: TRIANGLE) tip? You bet, and I do.
I am used to the way Kamui's play, so I have those on my player. I'm in the process of switching out my house cues to Triangle's. All of the new cues I have coming will have Triangle's on them as well. If I like the tip I'm using, I don't see a need to change it. The consistency I've found with both these tips is very impressive, and that's why they are on my cue. If you like them, great. If not, I really don't care. Use what YOU like and be happy!
Old Pro's Never Used Layered Tip Stupidity:
This has got to be the DUMBEST line I've ever heard, and it comes up over and over again. The great's of the 50's and 60's didn't use Layered tips for the same reason that the golfing greats of that era didn't use graphite shafts - THEY DIDN'T EXIST!!!!
What has happened is that the game has evolved. Things like layered tips and Low Deflection shafts have taken a lot of player's games to a new level that was not possible before. Are there top players that don't use either? Yes. But there are also a whole slew of pro's that swear by BOTH. Again it's all personal preference, but saying they "Didn't use (whatever) back when it didn't exist shows total ignorance since it doesn't take into account all those players who *would* have tried something and played even better.
This has, and will, be one of those things where opinions and personal preference matter far more than actual technology or price. By that I mean that players will use what they like, and will spend money trying to find something they like more, until they either like what they're using, or get sick of trying new things. For some people, part of the fun of playing is trying something new that *might* give them an edge, or just makes the game more enjoyable. If Brand "X" tip lets them draw the ball more than the one they are using currently, and it's more fun for them, they will buy that tip. Does it matter if they overuse draw (or english in general)? No. They are just happy that they can do it.
Bottom line: Use what you like and/or what fits your game best.
As for the price issue: If $20 is going to change the way you live, you're probably not playing pool with that $20 anyway.
Layered tip vs. Single layered tip debate:
I use 2 tips: Kamui Black S and now Triangles. I like the feel of both of these tips, and with my stroke, can pull off about any shot with the same amount of effort with either. The cost has never been a factor. What has been are things like: Feel, ability to hold chalk, how it stands up over time, etc. THOSE are the things that matter. Can you get them out of a good inexpensive (read: TRIANGLE) tip? You bet, and I do.
I am used to the way Kamui's play, so I have those on my player. I'm in the process of switching out my house cues to Triangle's. All of the new cues I have coming will have Triangle's on them as well. If I like the tip I'm using, I don't see a need to change it. The consistency I've found with both these tips is very impressive, and that's why they are on my cue. If you like them, great. If not, I really don't care. Use what YOU like and be happy!
Old Pro's Never Used Layered Tip Stupidity:
This has got to be the DUMBEST line I've ever heard, and it comes up over and over again. The great's of the 50's and 60's didn't use Layered tips for the same reason that the golfing greats of that era didn't use graphite shafts - THEY DIDN'T EXIST!!!!
What has happened is that the game has evolved. Things like layered tips and Low Deflection shafts have taken a lot of player's games to a new level that was not possible before. Are there top players that don't use either? Yes. But there are also a whole slew of pro's that swear by BOTH. Again it's all personal preference, but saying they "Didn't use (whatever) back when it didn't exist shows total ignorance since it doesn't take into account all those players who *would* have tried something and played even better.
I think I paid $40 for my Kamui and to have it installed. Basically $20 for the install and $20 for the tip. The $20 for the install was the same for any tip, so in my discussion I don't mention it, as it's a fixed amount no matter what you choose.
Brian
First, I very much appreciate the answers to my questions.
As others have noted, I myself am not saying 20 dollars is too much. My question is different..... I was hoping you could take one more shot at it, please
.......Kamuis are twenty times more expensive than triangles, yet we all know they do not play twenty times better. A cost of 2 times could be considered high, this is 20! Can you therefore justify why the benefit vs cost ratios aren't there? And pleased mind what you are saying.... if I take 2 identical cars, and put nicer tires on one... well sure that one is the "best" now, but we all know it isn't worth orders of magnitude of the price more (ie people dont want to pay 20 times the price for say a 2% improvement).
Depending (I suppose) upon your answer to that first question, my second would be, are there any plans to be more competitive in the cost vs benefits ratio? And if not, why (ie are there specific reason, like you'd go under)?
Thanks once again.
Let's put it out why I use a Kamui (and before that Moori or Everest). I have found I spend a whole lot less time maintaining my tip. I don't have to shape it anywhere near as often. I find that it holds chalk better and less likely to have glazing issues. If that saves me from 10 miscues during a tournaments or league play a year, that $19 extra dollars paid for itself, if not paid for in the time I saved in having to maintain my tip.
Brian
Hi Enzo,
Thank you for your reply. I think I answered the question already.. But let me ask this so I can better answer you.
Describe to me a tip that plays (in your mind) 20 times better.
What characteristics does it have
What playability it has
What consistency it has.(meaning the same tip every time you install it)
If you can answer these questions I will get it to the manufacture.
Kamui tips was born by a player... And improved by players.
We are NEVER satisfied with our product. So, help us help you.
Thank you for your reply. I think I answered the question already.. But let me ask this so I can better answer you.
Describe to me a tip that plays (in your mind) 20 times better.
What characteristics does it have
What playability it has
What consistency it has.(meaning the same tip every time you install it)
If you can answer these questions I will get it to the manufacture.
Kamui tips was born by a player... And improved by players.
We are NEVER satisfied with our product. So, help us help you.
First, I very much appreciate the answers to my questions.
As others have noted, I myself am not saying 20 dollars is too much. My question is different..... I was hoping you could take one more shot at it, please
Kamuis are twenty times more expensive than triangles, yet we all know they do not play twenty times better. A cost of 2 times could be considered high, this is 20! Can you therefore justify why the benefit vs cost ratios aren't there? And pleased mind what you are saying.... if I take 2 identical cars, and put nicer tires on one... well sure that one is the "best" now, but we all know it isn't worth orders of magnitude of the price more (ie people dont want to pay 20 times the price for say a 2% improvement).
Depending (I suppose) upon your answer to that first question, my second would be, are there any plans to be more competitive in the cost vs benefits ratio? And if not, why (ie are there specific reason, like you'd go under)?
Thanks once again.