Are stiff shafts harder to draw the ball with?

ChopStick said:
Just wondering if anyone else has any experience with this. I just switched to a Diveney cue 13mm shaft. It is probably the stiffest cue I have played with. I feel like I am having to work harder to draw the cue ball with it. I was always good with the easy low speed draws. Now it seems like I am having to apply more force to get the ball to spin. This is not a problem. I can adjust to it. I love the cue. Just curious if there is something behind this I don't know about.

I have another cue on order with him and I am considering going to 12.75mm partly because of the extra stiffness in a lake salvage shaft and I have also used a 12.75mm for years and I am used to it.
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Are you using an open or closed bridge? Does your old cue have the same balance point as your old cue?

The reason i ask is because i also have a harder time drawing the cue ball on neutral balanced or butt heavy cues compared to my preferred forward balanced cue specially when using an open bridge.

Also, you might want to check the tip shape


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It has nothing to do with the taper of the shaft, and everything to do with the diameter of the tip. You are not hitting as low as you think you are with a full 13mm tip, assuming that you're keeping the tip curvature the same.
 
Thanks!

Sloppy Pockets said:
It's a Fury LD shaft (I was speaking to him at the Fury booth), but it has been modified to suit him somehow IIRC. He ain't a big guy and he was almost able to twist it into a pretzel. Very flexible.

I can't remember exactly what is special about it, but he said there is a shaft that Fury makes that is almost like it. I tried one and couldn't make a ball with it. Nothing worse than choking on a 3' straight-in shot right in front of John Schmidt. :eek: Lol
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Thanks for the insights, I'll pick up a Fury and give it a try...., I wont post my misses!
 
Stiff

I have a Diveney Ebony Hustler with 2 Lake Salvage shafts that I had Pat take down to 12.5mm and extend the shaft taper to 18" and both have Kamui Black Medium tips on them. I also have a OB Classic shaft fitted for the Diveney butt with the same diameter and taper, it wears a Kamui Black Soft tip. I have a Meucci Sneaky with a Black Dot shaft that wears a Kamui Black Soft tip. I never really noticed a difference in my draw stroke with either shaft or butt. I think about any good shaft with a good tip in the hands of a player with a good stroke is going to draw the ball well. Whether it is a 11.75 or 13mm tip size. Efren uses a very small diameter maple shaft and Elk Master tips and other pros use Low Deflection shafts with a larger diameter. So much of it depends on the shooter and their draw stroke, as it should. When I get my table set up in a week or so I will be able to run more of a comparison.
 
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Hmm....I might be opposite here. It seems easier to draw my rock with my standard lambros maple shaft. Full table draw with the lambros stiff shaft seems effortless. With my 314 I feel I have to push through a tad but more to get the same distance. Then again might be the weight of the cues as my lambros is butt heavy and I barely grip the cue on the draw. With my p2 it feels like I grip the cue a bit more for some reason.
 
I think the "stroke" has a lot more to do with it than the stiffness of the shaft. I think it is a bit easier to draw the ball with a more flexible shaft, but if your stroke is "good" I think you will get a "purer" hit on the cue ball with the stiffer shaft which equates to a little better control.

I used 14mm shafts exclusively for many, many years and never had any problem at all doing table length draws and sometimes table length and back again.

If you can "control" how far down on the cue ball you can hit, and you can hit with a good clean stroke you should have no problem drawing the ball.
 
A lot of times the way a tip is shaped has a great effect on the action of the cue. A dime radius reacts differently on a 13mm shaft then a 11.5mm shaft and the same is true of a nickel radius.

I forget where the diagram is but Bob Jewitt or Dr Dave drew something up that explains this.

Personally I think your ability to draw is influenced most by your stroke.
 
I find that the mid shaft taper has a great deal to do with how a shaft draws the ball. Even if I leave a shaft 12.7 at the tip but pull the taper back on a stiff shaft, I find that the shot requires a good stroke, whereas with a chunkier cue, you can kind of get lazy and let the cue get through the ball for you. You'll adjust to be able to zoom the ball back on those mid speed shots with the same force eventually and it will be great practice for your stroke. Just make sure your hand and wrist are relaxed and you are constantly accelerating through the ball.
 
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if a flexible shaft makes your speed of the cue faster with the same stroke as a less flexible one then you would draw it better. but it doesnt.

the lower you can hit without starting a miscue and the faster the cue travels combined with its weight will determine the distance of draw.

e=1/2mass times velocity squared.

what is likely happening is that with the flexible shaft which is lighter the player is able to speed up his stroke a little.
 
My experiences is that a stiffer shaft puts more spin on the ball.
I usually play with a Mezz WX900 shaft and with that shaft I have good cue ball controll and I have no problem getting the desired amount of draw.
If I play with the Mezz Hybrid Alpha or Hybrid Pro II shaft - both very stiff Carbon Core shafts, the first thing I notice that i loose CB controll on draw shots. I`m much more likely to overdraw as the stiff shafts transfers energy more efficient.
 
qbilder said:
It has nothing to do with stiffness. Contrarily, consider trick shot cues. They are very fat, short, and extremely stiff. They are made like that to enhance action on the ball.
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If drawing the ball effectively has nothing to do with stiffness, why would a trick shot cue be made to be extremely stiff in order to enhance action on the ball?
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Oh, I'm sure that having John watching while trying to suppress a smirk was almost entirely responsible for me missing. ;)

Maybe I can PM John about the cue. I could be remembering some of what he said wrong, but he definitely said he could put more action on the ball with less cue speed with the more flexible shaft. Too bad he doesn't come around here on AZB anymore. He's one of the good ones for sure.
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Got to say it would make me a little apprehensive also!
 
Having a good stroke and tip is the major factor. I was having trouble power drawing the ball with a new kamui and picked up a predator break cue to see if it was by stroke and drew the ball without a problem. Found out I had a bootleg kamui. I don't think someone like Nevel, would have a problem drawing a ball with a house cue with his stroke.
 
from what i understand the reason a stiff shaft might be harder to draw with is the feed back naturally if you shot it with a soft stroke but the cue hits hard it fools your mind into thinking you hit as good as before with a shaft your use to. I bet if you stick it out your body and mind will adjust and then it will be just as easy.
 
ChopStick said:
Just wondering if anyone else has any experience with this. I just switched to a Diveney cue 13mm shaft. It is probably the stiffest cue I have played with. I feel like I am having to work harder to draw the cue ball with it. I was always good with the easy low speed draws. Now it seems like I am having to apply more force to get the ball to spin. This is not a problem. I can adjust to it. I love the cue. Just curious if there is something behind this I don't know about.

I have another cue on order with him and I am considering going to 12.75mm partly because of the extra stiffness in a lake salvage shaft and I have also used a 12.75mm for years and I am used to it.
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The most important thing for drawing or applying good pure english on a CB is to ensure the tip is hitting exactly where intended, this is usually hard since the cue is in motion and many muscles are in motion, for a starters, having a very short bridge will ensure tip accuracy, hence good english but not the best, because with short bridge your muscles are in control and not the pure weight of the cue. With long bridge a player can have faster speed by accelerating the cue weight and have a pure tip hit the CB, with proper tip placement and follow through (follow through to ensure good acceleration), it is guaranteed to have the best CB rotational speed. I am a believer that a stiff shaft will deliver better cb action, but the unfortunate thing is, its purity is dampened by the tip softness, therefore, shaft stiffness does not effect CB draw, it does effect CB speed when using break cue with fiberglass tips or hard tips of which you might miss cue if you try to draw back with it..
 
PoolBum said:
If drawing the ball effectively has nothing to do with stiffness, why would a trick shot cue be made to be extremely stiff in order to enhance action on the ball?
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Read it within the context of me answering his question about not being able to draw as well because the shaft is stiffer. I replied that him not being able to draw as well has nothing to do with the shaft being stiffer, but rather in fact draw should be easier because of it.
 
IMO, spin has more to do with where the ball is contacted, considering that the tip is capable of holding chalk and is adequately done so. The abrasion between the tip and the ball is greatly the result of chalk, which is why we need chalk to not miscue. So long as the abrasion is efficient, and the tip contacts the ball far enough below center, the cue ball will have a reverse spin.

As far as stiffness goes, it relates to power transfer. The more the shaft flexes upon impact, the less efficient the power transfer from cue to ball. Hitting very hard with a limp noodle is stiff soft. Hitting soft with a piece of steel is still hard. The ball is long gone before the shaft has a chance to reflex, so the "whip" of the shaft straightening back out after impact has no effect on the cue ball. Essentially, the stiffer the shaft, the less it flexes, the more efficient the energy transfer between the tip and ball. The more it flexes, the more energy it absorbs, leaving less for the ball.
 
When I hit the ball properly, I cannot tell that one shaft draws better than another
 
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