Are stiff shafts harder to draw the ball with?

ChopStick

ChopStick

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Just wondering if anyone else has any experience with this. I just switched to a Diveney cue 13mm shaft. It is probably the stiffest cue I have played with. I feel like I am having to work harder to draw the cue ball with it. I was always good with the easy low speed draws. Now it seems like I am having to apply more force to get the ball to spin. This is not a problem. I can adjust to it. I love the cue. Just curious if there is something behind this I don't know about.

I have another cue on order with him and I am considering going to 12.75mm partly because of the extra stiffness in a lake salvage shaft and I have also used a 12.75mm for years and I am used to it.
 
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It has nothing to do with stiffness. Contrarily, consider trick shot cues. They are very fat, short, and extremely stiff. They are made like that to enhance action on the ball. Most likely you have a dud tip. Try swapping that out.
 
I don't know if there is a shred of science behind it, but I was talking to John Schmidt about this at SBE this spring. He is convinced that the extremely flexible shaft he is currently using (he flexed it in front of me and said it bent like overcooked spaghetti) allows him to put more spin on the ball with the same effort, or the same spin with less effort. Then he demonstrated some full-length draw shots where he seemed to just swing through the ball.

He had me put a ball a few inches from a corner pocket and about 1/4" from the rail. Then he put the CB right in front of the pocket at the other end, stroked the ball, and drew it all the way back to the pocket he shot out of. He definitely looked pretty relaxed for an extreme power draw like that. He's got a million dollar stroke, though. May have just a bit to do with his success with that shot. I doubt my nine dollar stroke could tell the difference.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I don't know if there is a shred of science behind it, but I was talking to John Schmidt about this at SBE this spring. He is convinced that the extremely flexible shaft he is currently using (he flexed it in front of me and said it bent like overcooked spaghetti) allows him to put more spin on the ball with the same effort, or the same spin with less effort. Then he demonstrated some full-length draw shots where he seemed to just swing through the ball.

He had me put a ball a few inches from a corner pocket and about 1/4" from the rail. Then he put the CB right in front of the pocket at the other end, stroked the ball, and drew it all the way back to the pocket he shot out of. He definitely looked pretty relaxed for an extreme power draw like that. He's got a million dollar stroke, though. May have just a bit to do with his success with that shot. I doubt my nine dollar stroke could tell the difference.
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$9 Dollar stroke :eek:
Now that's hilarious
Damn I must spread some rep around
 
I have no way of proving the but in my opinion stiff cues draw much better, just feels that way I guess.
One more reason I like traditional shafts over LD's.
 
It's a lot easier to draw a ball using my old Meucci Original shafts,

then any of my Joss or Schon shafts. :thumbup:
 
So what about...,

Sloppy Pockets said:
I don't know if there is a shred of science behind it, but I was talking to John Schmidt about this at SBE this spring. He is convinced that the extremely flexible shaft he is currently using (he flexed it in front of me and said it bent like overcooked spaghetti) allows him to put more spin on the ball with the same effort, or the same spin with less effort. Then he demonstrated some full-length draw shots where he seemed to just swing through the ball.

He had me put a ball a few inches from a corner pocket and about 1/4" from the rail. Then he put the CB right in front of the pocket at the other end, stroked the ball, and drew it all the way back to the pocket he shot out of. He definitely looked pretty relaxed for an extreme power draw like that. He's got a million dollar stroke, though. May have just a bit to do with his success with that shot. I doubt my nine dollar stroke could tell the difference.
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So he is no longer using a LD shaft? What is he using?
 
I couldn't draw worth crap with the Tiger X Pro I was using. It's a lot stiffer than the OB-2 I'm using now, and now I have no problems drawing the ball.
 
poolguy4u said:
It's a lot easier to draw a ball using my old Meucci Original shafts,

then any of my Joss or Schon shafts. :thumbup:
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I took my shaft down to 12.5mm and I thought it helped me draw a lot better, but then one day I picked up one of my Dufferin bar cues with a strong conical taper and was stunned that I could the draw the ball fine with it.

Who knows? I think it's all in the stroke myself. In the case of Schmidty that I mentioned above, he says he believes he can increase the contact time by stroking into the ball firmly enough and with the proper timing that the shaft bends and stores some of the power of the stroke before it is released.

I know the physicists will have me in their crosshairs for even uttering such blasphemy, but when a player of John's caliber says he feels something in his stroke, I am unwilling to dismiss it out of hand. I know for a fact that a fly rod's ability to bend allows it to store some power in it before the final power snap, why wouldn't a cue be able to do the same?

Call me ignorant, but I was around science long enough to see some simple "facts" get overturned as new knowledge came in. We know an awful lot about collision dynamics, but there are still a few surprises in store I'd be willing to bet. Wasn't too long ago that everybody thought squirt was influenced by cue speed. The high speed camera and some careful observations of the results proved otherwise, but I still see over and over how deflection is affected by both speed and tip offset when "squirve" is what is actually occurring.
 
a few years back, my cues got stolen, and i bought a mcdermott to play with until i got a better cue.

I had to pound shots to get draw with that cue, it was very difficult to draw with and it was very stiff.
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I know the physicists will have me in their crosshairs for even uttering such blasphemy, but when a player of John's caliber says he feels something in his stroke, I am unwilling to dismiss it out of hand. I know for a fact that a fly rod's ability to bend allows it to store some power in it before the final power snap, why wouldn't a cue be able to do the same?
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Same thing with golf shafts. Finding a shaft with the kick point that matches your swing speed and timing is a key in club fitting. When you do find that shaft though, and you know what you're looking for/at, it's a huge "bingo" moment.
 
King T said:
So he is no longer using a LD shaft? What is he using?
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It's a Fury LD shaft (I was speaking to him at the Fury booth), but it has been modified to suit him somehow IIRC. He ain't a big guy and he was almost able to twist it into a pretzel. Very flexible.

I can't remember exactly what is special about it, but he said there is a shaft that Fury makes that is almost like it. I tried one and couldn't make a ball with it. Nothing worse than choking on a 3' straight-in shot right in front of John Schmidt. :eek: Lol
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
I took my shaft down to 12.5mm and I thought it helped me draw a lot better, but then one day I picked up one of my Dufferin bar cues with a strong conical taper and was stunned that I could the draw the ball fine with it.

Who knows? I think it's all in the stroke myself. In the case of Schmidty that I mentioned above, he says he believes he can increase the contact time by stroking into the ball firmly enough and with the proper timing that the shaft bends and stores some of the power of the stroke before it is released.

I know the physicists will have me in their crosshairs for even uttering such blasphemy, but when a player of John's caliber says he feels something in his stroke, I am unwilling to dismiss it out of hand. I know for a fact that a fly rod's ability to bend allows it to store some power in it before the final power snap, why wouldn't a cue be able to do the same?

Call me ignorant, but I was around science long enough to see some simple "facts" get overturned as new knowledge came in. We know an awful lot about collision dynamics, but there are still a few surprises in store I'd be willing to bet. Wasn't too long ago that everybody thought squirt was influenced by cue speed. The high speed camera and some careful observations of the results proved otherwise, but I still see over and over how deflection is affected by both speed and tip offset when "squirve" is what is actually occurring.
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meucci's had real springy shafts and were very easy to draw with, and i believe it was because the shaft would bend in the hit, making for a longer contact time, and when it starts to spring back it imparts extra spin on shots. (push a ball with a spring, spring compresses and when push slows down spring expands, then contact is lost after this)
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
It's a Fury LD shaft (I was speaking to him at the Fury booth), but it has been modified to suit him somehow IIRC. He ain't a big guy and he was almost able to twist it into a pretzel. Very flexible.

I can't remember exactly what is special about it, but he said there is a shaft that Fury makes that is almost like it. I tried one and couldn't make a ball with it. Nothing worse than choking on a 3' straight-in shot right in front of John Schmidt. :eek: Lol
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Are you sure the last sentence was why you missed? Maybe it wasn't the shaft? I never tried the fury shaft. I am curious about it now.
 
Baxter said:
Same thing with golf shafts. Finding a shaft with the kick point that matches your swing speed and timing is a key in club fitting. When you do find that shaft though, and you know what you're looking for/at, it's a huge "bingo" moment.
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Sounds like the same physics are at play.

With a fly rod, stroke timing is everything. Little gals can cast a hundred feet or more because they rely on timing rather than muscle power to develop line speed. Having a rod with a flex profile that matches your casting dynamics goes a long way toward achieving success.

With a fly rod, you need the tip of the rod to track in a perfectly straight line, so you either use a rod that matches your individual timing or you learn to use different rods and change your timing in order for it to track straight through the stroke. It's a complete feel thing, it all happens too fast (and behind you) to make an adjustment on the fly.

I can cast with anything at this point, but having grown up and learning on fine bamboo rods makes me partial to slower action rods. The current rage is toward lightning fast rod "cannons" that send the line out into the backing all by themselves. Well, in the ads anyway. 99% of casual flycasters lack the tight timing and control of their casting rhythms to get anything out of them. They'd be just as well served using a broomstick.

So in pool, maybe guys with world-class strokes are going to like cues that us mortals might not, and maybe they will capable of getting action on their rock with these tools that we only dream of. Who are we to tell them what they can and can't do with them?
 
ChopStick said:
Just wondering if anyone else has any experience with this. I just switched to a Diveney cue 13mm shaft. It is probably the stiffest cue I have played with. I feel like I am having to work harder to draw the cue ball with it. I was always good with the easy low speed draws. Now it seems like I am having to apply more force to get the ball to spin. This is not a problem. I can adjust to it. I love the cue. Just curious if there is something behind this I don't know about.

I have another cue on order with him and I am considering going to 12.75mm partly because of the extra stiffness in a lake salvage shaft and I have also used a 12.75mm for years and I am used to it.
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I agree with all those who say that older meucci shafts are very easy to draw with - I have Accustats video of a nationally ranked pro claiming that Meucci drew better than his Szamboti and he was not saying it as a promo for meucci - it was in a player review tape of his own World 14.1 play. Also, having owned many custom and production cues, my experience too; is that stiffer shafts require a much cleaner draw stroke to execute well, not so with less stiff shafts in my opinion.
 
buckshotshoey said:
Are you sure the last sentence was why you missed? Maybe it wasn't the shaft? I never tried the fury shaft. I am curious about it now.
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Oh, I'm sure that having John watching while trying to suppress a smirk was almost entirely responsible for me missing. ;)

Maybe I can PM John about the cue. I could be remembering some of what he said wrong, but he definitely said he could put more action on the ball with less cue speed with the more flexible shaft. Too bad he doesn't come around here on AZB anymore. He's one of the good ones for sure.
 
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