are the posters here their own worst enemies?

[PKM]

I haven't been around as long as some of you guys, but I don't think the problem is as serious as some make out. Usually the nasty arguments occur in threads that start out with that purpose, rather than the threads that are actually about pool. Then, for some odd reason, people are happy to just talk about pool!

 

[Gregg]

Grady is gone again, perhaps to return, perhaps not.

However there is another issue besides the pro's and the legends that we as a group run off.

Hu

Sorry, but that's not the case here. Grady clearly ran himself off the MB; it's his own fault.

 

[JoeyA]

U R preaching to

Grady is gone again, perhaps to return, perhaps not. In the meantime we miss the stories and comments about the old time players and the knowledge he occasionally drops. I would prefer him here if I have to wade through a dozen negative posts from him for every good one.

However there is another issue besides the pro's and the legends that we as a group run off. There are a lot of lurkers or registered members out there that never post. I know of at least a half-dozen people with a lot to offer that won't post here because they know they would get sucked into the bickering and fighting. Some don't consider themselves computer literate, as polished with words, or as able of typists so they know that right or wrong they will get chewed up in disagreements with swarms of attacking keyboard commandoes.

I certainly haven't been blameless in the past but I do try to think before I post now, particularly when the issue isn't pool related or is pool related but relatively unimportant to me. Is it really worth offending a valuable poster to point out that they are wrong or that I think they are wrong? Is it worth keeping nobody knows how many could be valuable posters off of these forums?

If anyone cares to check the members list, we have seventy-four pages of registered users who have never posted and over half of our members have posted less than a half-dozen times. How many of these could be valuable contributors? How many lurkers have a great deal to offer?

I know for sure that included in these lurkers and registered posters that don't contribute there are names that almost everyone on this forum would recognize. We need to create a climate that encourages them to post. The history of pool is mostly an oral history. Without the stories being written many great tales will be lost and forgotten. This is to say nothing of the pool knowledge that has to be rediscovered over and over instead of passed on. Some of this knowledge is certainly lost.

Hu

View attachment 49772

JoeyA

 

[LAMas]

Good thread.
Why do people get so intense with the written word? "Can't we all get along?" Perhaps there are those that are looking for a posting fight about typos, ommited sources, or different points of view (POV).

I find that this is a great Forum to see topics that are worthy of research to expand one's knowlege of things and thoughts - others don't and that's cool too. I often Google topics that are posted and find the source and other POV that expand the learning.

I am a better person for lurking and posting and find that there are many posters that have a wealth of knowledge that should be shared. They should continue to contribute dispite the criticism for there are those that benefit without being a critic.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. After all, Those that post and run away, live to post another day. Many have left only to return when the mood strikes them - remember Fast Larry?

 

[Gregg]

Good thread.
Why do people get so intense with the written word? "Can't we all get along?" Perhaps there are those that are looking for a posting fight about typos, ommited sources, or different points of view (POV).

I find that this is a great Forum to see topics that are worthy of research to expand one's knowlege of things and thoughts - others don't and that's cool too. I often Google topics that are posted and find the source and other POV that expand the learning.

I am a better person for lurking and posting and find that there are many posters that have a wealth of knowledge that should be shared. They should continue to contribute dispite the criticism for there are those that benefit without being a critic.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. After all, Those that post and run away, live to post another day. Many have left only to return when the mood strikes them - remember Fast Larry?

Yes, I do remember FL.

He was so obnoxious that he actually had someone physically assault him. And he no longer a young man these days.

IMO, if you are really, really going to leave, why not just do it, without creating a new thread? Obviously, he'll be coming back to read it. Or, he wouldn't have posted it at all

I mean, really, come on.

 

[Snapshot9]

As the sands through the hour glass......so are the days of the internet.......

It should be: so are the 'bytes' of the internet ......

 

[ShootingArts]

some observations

I have over 1800 posts here. While reputation points mean little to me in themselves with over 4000 points, they are a good indicator of what people think of a thread. The post starting this thread earned me far more rep and earned it much faster than any of my other 1800 some odd posts. It also earned rep from the widest group of posters, friends, strangers, old posters, new and unknown to me posters. That indicates to me that there is broad and strong support for bettering the forum atmosphere.

Grady gone again is a loss and was one thing that spurred this post but what was more the inspiration is the half-dozen or so posters that I would very much like on here that have personally told me that they won't participate because of the atmosphere. I haven't been attending big events and even when I do I don't impose myself on people so I talk to very few names. Every name I talk to is aware of AZB. All I talk to have at least visited as a guest or looking over someone's shoulder. Many have a membership. They don't see any upside to getting involved with the daily drama of AZB and they see a lot of potential downside. Time wasted, reputation damaged, and they have no desire to be hammered on a battlefield where they are at a disadvantage. First and foremost, pool players play pool. They spend far less time on a keyboard than many on these forums, including myself, and they realize this puts them at a major disadvantage. Nobody cares to set themselves up as a pincushion.

I'm not preaching to the choir here, they don't need it. I'm not talking to the people who could care less what happens to the forums as long as they are entertained along the way either, it is a waste of my time. However, I think the great bulk of us fall in the middle of those two groups. These are the ones that I am asking to think a little before you post. We can make a huge difference if we choose to.

I won't always be perfect in the future and I doubt anyone else will. Hopefully many of us will give a little thought to if we really need to post an inflammatory post before we hit enter. I am hitting delete more often than enter now. That is a start.

Hu

 

[3kushn]

Grady is gone again, perhaps to return, perhaps not. In the meantime we miss the stories and comments about the old time players and the knowledge he occasionally drops. I would prefer him here if I have to wade through a dozen negative posts from him for every good one.

However there is another issue besides the pro's and the legends that we as a group run off. There are a lot of lurkers or registered members out there that never post. I know of at least a half-dozen people with a lot to offer that won't post here because they know they would get sucked into the bickering and fighting. Some don't consider themselves computer literate, as polished with words, or as able of typists so they know that right or wrong they will get chewed up in disagreements with swarms of attacking keyboard commandoes.

I certainly haven't been blameless in the past but I do try to think before I post now, particularly when the issue isn't pool related or is pool related but relatively unimportant to me. Is it really worth offending a valuable poster to point out that they are wrong or that I think they are wrong? Is it worth keeping nobody knows how many could be valuable posters off of these forums?

If anyone cares to check the members list, we have seventy-four pages of registered users who have never posted and over half of our members have posted less than a half-dozen times. How many of these could be valuable contributors? How many lurkers have a great deal to offer?

I know for sure that included in these lurkers and registered posters that don't contribute there are names that almost everyone on this forum would recognize. We need to create a climate that encourages them to post. The history of pool is mostly an oral history. Without the stories being written many great tales will be lost and forgotten. This is to say nothing of the pool knowledge that has to be rediscovered over and over instead of passed on. Some of this knowledge is certainly lost.

Hu

I'm all for cleaning/eliminating the attacks. I stick my neck out on occasion with advice for people, first of all to attempt to help and secondly to get a responce.

It's a darn shame that Grady is attacked so much here. Most of the best teachers I've ever had in my life I disliked on a personal level. I don't know Grady at all and therefore am neutral about him personally, but I have to believe his attitude comes in part from the bangers that jump on the critical band wagon, have no respect for the tremendous time, effort and sacrifice it takes to reach the level of play Grady has reached. If Ralph Greenleaf were alive and on this forum some of these guys would be attacking him just as they do Grady.
I've personally witnessed this before.

It's human nature IMO to feel that we're always right. I enjoy being proven wrong. That' one way I learn. Some people despise being proven wrong, will not accept change and when challanged, attack the messanger. Then they wonder why they're stuck.

As you said pool knowledge has primarily been handed down by word of mouth many times the info goes through the rumor mill thus gets distorted.
It's a privlage to get good info first hand.

I love reading from the Pros and Semi's. We need to encourage them somehow to speak up for the good of the game.

 

[Rickw]

I don't understand why people take things said on here to heart so much. Most of the people on here are incognito. Who cares what somebody on here has to say? Why take anything said on here personally?

I think people get more upset with what they say themselves rather than what others say. You get sucked into a war of words and you start saying things that you wouldn't normally say and you think about it afterwards and get upset with yourself for getting upset. Did I say "upset" enough? LOL!

The keys to having fun on here are: 1. Try not to say anything mean-spirited to anyone. 2. Don't take anything personally - why would you? 3. Don't assume what another poster means to say because afterall, it is the typed word and it can be misconstrued very easily.

As for Grady, I'm sorry he's not posting anymore because I love reading his posts as well as Freddy's and Jay's and all the other older pool players that have been there and done that. You can't protect someone from themselves though. Unfortunately, Grady broke all three of the rules posted above.

 

[ShootingArts]

Good point but people do

I don't understand why people take things said on here to heart so much. Most of the people on here are incognito. Who cares what somebody on here has to say? Why take anything said on here personally?

Rick,

I think people take things to heart because it is both direct communication between two people and something said in public where everyone can see. Anyone spreading lies or maligning me in public talking to people everywhere they go is risking an unpleasant meeting with me. I can see no reason why people talking about me using the written word in a public forum should be any different. If anything it is worse because it reaches far more people and can be around for years to continue to injure unlike verbal attacks.

The real problem in my mind is the people that feel free to behave behind a keyboard in ways they never would in "real life". I was involved in a niche sport where there were only a few thousand of us in the US. The large national events brought together people who had been fighting bitterly on the primary forum many frequented. You never saw so many lions turn into mice, usually all parties. What was hilarious was to see some of these guys going at each other hammer and tongs on Thursday on the net, spend three days side by side talking, laughing, genuinely enjoying each others company at a big meet, and back at it on Monday night as if there had never been a pause.

Some create internet persona that they consider fantasy even if they are using their own name, some are the same person on and off the net. Those of us that are the same on and off the net expect the real person to take responsibility for what comes out of their keyboard regardless of who or what they are pretending to be while typing.

The bottom line is that our words on the net do affect other people. They make them happy, sad, angry, or even unwilling to risk having our words directed their way. Regardless of the weight we give our words, others do give them weight and ultimately that is what matters.

Hu

 

[Rickw]

Hu,

I understand what you're saying but I don't agree with you. You are who you are and you're not what could be inferred to be from comments someone else says on here. If you take seriously what someone on here says about you, you give them way too much power. If you do that, you've been sucked in and then they've won.

This site is a pseudo environment. Learn and have fun but don't take it seriously. Believe me, there is a life outside of AZ! If there isn't, you're in big trouble!

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Believe me, there is a life outside of AZ!

You're only joking, right?

 

[Rickw]

You're only joking, right?

Yeah! What was I thinking?

Nice avatar! If I was playing her, I'd be like, "AZ? What's that?"

 

[Roy Steffensen]

Nice avatar!

It was the best picture I could find of a Predator 2 with a Z2-shaft

 

[Rickw]

It was the best picture I could find of a Predator 2 with a Z2-shaft

Of course I was only looking at that awesome necklace!

 

[ShootingArts]

very real

Rick you are very mistaken. I have seen great harm done to men's character and to their businesses by words you think have no power. It isn't what you think, it is what the readers think. It isn't always what I think but what any reader thinks. Slam my business repeatedly on the net and I will sue for libel. I have seen businesses completely destroyed by the power of the internet so I don't take it lightly.

As I said, perception is what counts and many people take what they read on the net seriously. If enough readers take it seriously, then it matters. Much like slanted news, it does damage.

Our posts have power regardless of what any individual poster thinks.

Hu

Hu,

I understand what you're saying but I don't agree with you. You are who you are and you're not what could be inferred to be from comments someone else says on here. If you take seriously what someone on here says about you, you give them way too much power. If you do that, you've been sucked in and then they've won.

This site is a pseudo environment. Learn and have fun but don't take it seriously. Believe me, there is a life outside of AZ! If there isn't, you're in big trouble!

 

[jay helfert]

It was the best picture I could find of a Predator 2 with a Z2-shaft

I have to admit. That's the first time I have ever looked at the cue.

 

[jay helfert]

Rick,

I think people take things to heart because it is both direct communication between two people and something said in public where everyone can see. Anyone spreading lies or maligning me in public talking to people everywhere they go is risking an unpleasant meeting with me. I can see no reason why people talking about me using the written word in a public forum should be any different. If anything it is worse because it reaches far more people and can be around for years to continue to injure unlike verbal attacks.

The real problem in my mind is the people that feel free to behave behind a keyboard in ways they never would in "real life". I was involved in a niche sport where there were only a few thousand of us in the US. The large national events brought together people who had been fighting bitterly on the primary forum many frequented. You never saw so many lions turn into mice, usually all parties. What was hilarious was to see some of these guys going at each other hammer and tongs on Thursday on the net, spend three days side by side talking, laughing, genuinely enjoying each others company at a big meet, and back at it on Monday night as if there had never been a pause.

Some create internet persona that they consider fantasy even if they are using their own name, some are the same person on and off the net. Those of us that are the same on and off the net expect the real person to take responsibility for what comes out of their keyboard regardless of who or what they are pretending to be while typing.

The bottom line is that our words on the net do affect other people. They make them happy, sad, angry, or even unwilling to risk having our words directed their way. Regardless of the weight we give our words, others do give them weight and ultimately that is what matters.

Hu

For me, it was really cool (yes I just said that) to walk into the AZ room at Derby City and meet the people behind the names. Heck, I didn't even know who Tom Ferry was until I saw him in person and remembered playing pool with him in years gone by. Of course, then he was Tom Martin.

I like meeting the people behind the names and maybe even hitting a few balls with them. If we didn't like pool, we wouldn't be on here. And that is our common denominator. Even people that I disagree with on here, I would be happy to meet in person, and we could laugh about it.

At the Riverside tournament, I overheard Parica talking about some guy he almost killed. I looked over and asked him if he was talking about me. A few years before he was very unhappy about something in Reno and called me outside. I just laughed him off. And we had another laugh in Riverside when I brought that up. He said no it wasn't me he was talking about. But I got a laugh out of him.

 

[ShootingArts]

been there too Jay

Jay,

I have been there too, but with me it was about circle track racing on several occasions. Tempers flair and folks are serious about doing great bodily harm at the moment. Years or sometimes only months later it is funny.

A good friend tried to sell me a chassis he had raced a few years before. When I saw the body on it I asked, "You remember that #92 car that deliberately parked you a couple hundred feet in the infield when it was under a foot and a half of water?" There were reasons that I did it but we both found them only something to laugh about two years later.

Another time I met a fellow driver in the stands and he wanted to introduce me to his wife. "This is Hu." Totally blank look. "He drove the #92 car." Still blank. "The orange one." She exploded, "that son of a bi . . . Oh how are you doing?" The last part in a honey sweet voice. I laughed, "yep, that guy." We were all friends for years.

A track owner always had a fantastic New Years Eve party. It took a lot of courage to put us all together and drinking but things actually went pretty smoothly. One New Years the lights went off for an hour or two. Best New Years party I have ever been too but that is definitely another story.

Hu

For me, it was really cool (yes I just said that) to walk into the AZ room at Derby City and meet the people behind the names. Heck, I didn't even know who Tom Ferry was until I saw him in person and remembered playing pool with him in years gone by. Of course, then he was Tom Martin.

I like meeting the people behind the names and maybe even hitting a few balls with them. If we didn't like pool, we wouldn't be on here. And that is our common denominator. Even people that I disagree with on here, I would be happy to meet in person, and we could laugh about it.

At the Riverside tournament, I overheard Parica talking about some guy he almost killed. I looked over and asked him if he was talking about me. A few years before he was very unhappy about something in Reno and called me outside. I just laughed him off. And we had another laugh in Riverside when I brought that up. He said no it wasn't me he was talking about. But I got a laugh out of him.

 

[cueandcushion]

Good points HU

I know my postings on AZBilliards have gone down dramatically from a year ago due to some online rhetoric about my business or even opinions about things. It makes you wonder why you bother to voice your opinion. I imagine many of the "lurkers" see these exchanges and realize they want to stay out of it. The message board sometimes takes on a different character when people use it to vent anger or to be vindictive against someone they have a history with. People who are simply watching two people argue online usually will side with the person who is more literate and well spoken rather the one telling the truth. If you do not know either party...their intelligence or vocabulary seems to dictate which side to take. I have seen many stories online about events I was a part of leave out very relevent facts to further their arguments which infuriates me. But I realize that adding a simple fact that a pool player got his tires slashed, owes thousands of $ to people, or his wife was sleeping with the other guy...these additions just get me deeper involved in drama that does nothing to help my business or my sanity. So I stay out of most of them. From a business point of view I try to voice my opinions based on experience and keep it non personal in most cases. I am representing my entire family online and always need to keep that in mind. I realize that if the argument gets out of hand. It is time to settle it in person on a parking lot, or in court with lawyers. Trying to settle it on a message board is futile. I hope I am too smart for that....most of the time.

Again...Good points HU. Thank you for the thread and allowing me to vent. lol.

Craig.