Are we killing folks' stroke ???

[Patrick Johnson]

By AZB ordinance I'm required to make this statement in every thread about shaft performance:

1. No shaft gives more, easier or better "action" (sidespin, draw or follow). This is entirely determined by where and how hard you hit the CB (with a good, well chalked tip).

2. Low squirt shafts are not "less forgiving" of unintended offcenter hits; they're more forgiving (but not enough).

You may now return to your regularly programmed dreaming.

pj
chgo

 

[Gerry]

IMO the popularity and subsequent proliferation of "fast" cloth obviated stroke...

yea, that's what I was thinking too.....but I said Obliviated

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

By AZB ordinance I'm required to make this statement in every thread about shaft performance:

1. No shaft gives more, easier or better "action" (sidespin, draw or follow). This is entirely determined by where and how hard you hit the CB (with a good, well chalked tip).

I disagree, some shafts flex in such a way the tip maintains contact longer, thus aplying more effective spin at the same speed as a shaft that deflects, or doesnt flex or compress properly...

2. Low squirt shafts are not "less forgiving" of unintended offcenter hits; they're more forgiving (but not enough).

Enough to change my game, and depending on what cue you use this can be quite dramatic

You may now return to your regularly programmed dreaming.

pj
chgo

Naturaly if the "Super Shaft" you just purchased doesnt do what it claims to your not going to see a real benifit.. Dont buy into Hype, only performance..


SPINDOKTOR

 

[Patrick Johnson]

some shafts flex in such a way the tip maintains contact longer

I don't think so. What evidence is there of this?

...thus aplying more effective spin at the same speed as a shaft that deflects, or doesnt flex or compress properly...

Even if more contact time was produced, why do you think it would "apply more effective spin at the same speed"?

pj
chgo

 

[pooltchr]

By AZB ordinance I'm required to make this statement in every thread about shaft performance:

1. No shaft gives more, easier or better "action" (sidespin, draw or follow). This is entirely determined by where and how hard you hit the CB (with a good, well chalked tip).

2. Low squirt shafts are not "less forgiving" of unintended offcenter hits; they're more forgiving (but not enough).

You may now return to your regularly programmed dreaming.

pj
chgo

I just thought this deserved to be repeated for anyone who might have missed it.

Steve

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I don't think so. What evidence is there of this?



Even if more contact time was produced, why do you think it would "apply more effective spin at the same speed"?

pj
chgo

Patrick,

While you are probably right, for fun I would like to play devil's advocate and ask what evidence is there to suggest that the differences in shaft deflection do not have an effect on spin? I would imagine that the stiffness of the shaft would potentially affect the angle of the force relative to the center of the cueball as the shaft bends. There is definitely some time in which the cue tip and cue ball are in contact. I would bet that this length of time is on the same order of magnitude as the time it takes for the shaft to deflect to the side. While this deflection is taking place, the force normal to the cueballs center is changing. The net rotational force applied to the cueball is probably some sort of sum of each instant of force in which there is tip-cueball contact. Since the force at each instant is changing based on the angle with which it is being applied, I would bet that different shafts would "net" a different amount of total "work" done in rotating the cueball. I'm sure there is some sort of fancy integral function that could express what I am saying a lot more succinctly.

Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Lol!!

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT

 

[worriedbeef]

Patrick,

While you are probably right, for fun I would like to play devil's advocate and ask what evidence is there to suggest that the differences in shaft deflection do not have an effect on spin? I would imagine that the stiffness of the shaft would potentially affect the angle of the force relative to the center of the cueball as the shaft bends. There is definitely some time in which the cue tip and cue ball are in contact. I would bet that this length of time is on the same order of magnitude as the time it takes for the shaft to deflect to the side. While this deflection is taking place, the force normal to the cueballs center is changing. The net rotational force applied to the cueball is probably some sort of sum of each instant of force in which there is tip-cueball contact. Since the force at each instant is changing based on the angle with which it is being applied, I would bet that different shafts would "net" a different amount of total "work" done in rotating the cueball. I'm sure there is some sort of fancy integral function that could express what I am saying a lot more succinctly.

Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Lol!!

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT

there probably is a difference in spin applied - your logic is quite reasonable. with such a difference in the build of a low deflection shaft and a standard one it's reasonable to think that.

but the thing is the difference is so minute it's probably impossible to measure. and definitely impossible to notice to the human senses.

low deflection shafts do not give more 'action'. it's a complete myth.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

The reason I asked is because I bought my friend a Predator Z2 blank for her Mike Webb cue, and we had a local cue guy put the correct joint on. The cue plays phenomenal! However, there is no question that I can do rediculous things with the ball that I couldn't do with my cue. I have a 1st gen. predator 314 with a Moori medium (very short and kinda hard). Her's is a 314 Z2 with the 11.5 mm tip, a nice meaty and seemingly very grippy Moori medium. For whatever reason, I can spin the ball like crazy. I feel like there are shots that I just cannot do with my cue but can do with hers. However, this could be attributable to the 11.5mm tip size, the freshness of the tip, and maybe not the shaft. Tough to say. It could also be that for whatever effect of feel or sight (with the small tip), I am simply able to confidently contact a lower or further out point on the cueball accurately. It is likely that if I hit this same point with my cue the exact same thing would happen.

I should also point out that I have on numerous occasions felt that I can get more lively draw action with a standard maple shaft. I think it might be as simple as how I am stroking on that particular day. I bet the small tip diameter does make a difference more so than the shaft.

Thinking out loud,

KMRUNOUT

 

[pooltchr]

Since the tip is only in contact with the cue ball for maybe 1/1000 of a second, there is very little time for any factors to enter into the picture other than the force applied upon contact. The directional force of the cue, combined with the location of contact in relation to center ball determine where the cue ball will go, and what it will be doing along the way. Anything else is almost totally insignificant. Yes, low deflection cues will have an impact on the amount of squirt, but have little if anything to do with the amount of spin.
Steve

 

[stikapos]

I'll say this much. I went back to my USS cue last night and I was ALLLLL confused. Came back this morning and things were getting somewhat back to normal, but this is a raving endorsement of the idea that you should have multiple women partners, but only one cue. Errrrr.....visa versa....errrrr.....I'm way too old for this stuff....but still trying!!!


tim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

KMRUNOUT:
While you are probably right, for fun I would like to play devil's advocate and ask what evidence is there to suggest that the differences in shaft deflection do not have an effect on spin?

Lots of controlled tests done by me on lots of different shafts. I've described them here more than once and you can do them too if you're interested in going to that trouble (it's not much trouble; the tests are really simple).

I would imagine that the stiffness of the shaft would potentially affect the angle of the force relative to the center of the cueball as the shaft bends.

I can see why you'd imagine that, but imagination isn't as good as actual comparisons of different shafts. It's also easy to imagine that stiffer shafts produce more CB squirt, but that isn't true either (as shown by many tests).

There is definitely some time in which the cue tip and cue ball are in contact. I would bet that this length of time is on the same order of magnitude as the time it takes for the shaft to deflect to the side.

Actually, the shaft is set in motion while in contact with the CB, but it does most of its deflecting after separating from the CB, as shown in high speed videos.

While this deflection is taking place, the force normal to the cueballs center is changing. The net rotational force applied to the cueball is probably some sort of sum of each instant of force in which there is tip-cueball contact.

I think this is probably correct. The CB begins to rotate while the tip is in contact with the CB (for 1/1000 of a second or so), so the amount of tip offset from centerball changes during this short time. The amount of spin probably isn't the amount that you'd get if the tip was only in contact with the CB for an instant at one offset distance - the amount of spin probably increases during the entire contact time, and the final amount of spin is probably something like the amount you'd get with an instantaneous contact at somewhere near the point where the CB finally leaves the tip.

Since the force at each instant is changing based on the angle with which it is being applied, I would bet that different shafts would "net" a different amount of total "work" done in rotating the cueball.

The second half of this statement doesn't follow from the first half unless you can show that different shafts have significantly different contact times. This hasn't been shown, and tests don't show significantly different spin results.

I'm sure there is some sort of fancy integral function that could express what I am saying a lot more succinctly.

JAL?

Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? Lol!!

Judging by the fact that my brain probably looks like my daughter's room (in which the existence of a floor can only be inferred), yes.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Since the tip is only in contact with the cue ball for maybe 1/1000 of a second, there is very little time for any factors to enter into the picture other than the force applied upon contact. The directional force of the cue, combined with the location of contact in relation to center ball determine where the cue ball will go, and what it will be doing along the way. Anything else is almost totally insignificant. Yes, low deflection cues will have an impact on the amount of squirt, but have little if anything to do with the amount of spin.
Steve

I agree with this, but I think KMRUNOUT is using "deflection" to mean shaft deflection rather than CB deflection (that confusion is why I like the term "squirt" for CB deflection). Stiffer shafts (what I think KMRUNOUT means by "low deflection") don't seem to have an impact on the amount of squirt.

Just wanted to clarify.

pj
chgo

 

[StrokeofLuck]

Yesterday, after weeks of hitting with a Deano and a smart shaft fitted cue, I took out an old, stiff hitting 5/16x14 ebony cue. Had to work like a dog to get the cue to do what I wanted it to do, nevermind the deflection. But with a few minutes, I adjusted and began hitting the cue well. Then I started thinking. With the new super shafts, you really never get any negative feedback regarding your stroke. With an older cue, say a TS or a SW, if you hit badly, the cue would practically stop what it was doing and beat you upside the head. So, by relying on "super shafts", are we really killing stroke ? I'm starting to wonder. Practice using something stiff and then use a super shaft ???

tim

I think ultimately what his original post tells us in this ongoing banter about shaft types, is that if you play with any cue long enough and become accustomed to the hit you will end up liking that hit and cues that hit most like your player will feel the most natural. That's why you hear people trying out customs and saying it hit like crap and giving a bad review before putting in the required hours with it. I have played with many different cues in my day from Predator to soft, stiff, firm you name it and I think I played pretty well with all of them. I recently bought a Steve Klein sneaky, at first I didn't like the taper and it seemed to hit too soft, but after dedicating some hours to it... I love it! 2 firsts and a second in my last 3 tourneys with it. It's all about comfort level in my opinion.

 

[stikapos]

I think ultimately what his original post tells us in this ongoing banter about shaft types, is that if you play with any cue long enough and become accustomed to the hit you will end up liking that hit and cues that hit most like your player will feel the most natural. That's why you hear people trying out customs and saying it hit like crap and giving a bad review before putting in the required hours with it. I have played with many different cues in my day from Predator to soft, stiff, firm you name it and I think I played pretty well with all of them. I recently bought a Steve Klein sneaky, at first I didn't like the taper and it seemed to hit too soft, but after dedicating some hours to it... I love it! 2 firsts and a second in my last 3 tourneys with it. It's all about comfort level in my opinion.

BINGO! I think you've got it!

 

[Flex]

I think ultimately what his original post tells us in this ongoing banter about shaft types, is that if you play with any cue long enough and become accustomed to the hit you will end up liking that hit and cues that hit most like your player will feel the most natural. That's why you hear people trying out customs and saying it hit like crap and giving a bad review before putting in the required hours with it. I have played with many different cues in my day from Predator to soft, stiff, firm you name it and I think I played pretty well with all of them. I recently bought a Steve Klein sneaky, at first I didn't like the taper and it seemed to hit too soft, but after dedicating some hours to it... I love it! 2 firsts and a second in my last 3 tourneys with it. It's all about comfort level in my opinion.

Are you able to overcome or ignore the annoying sound of a loose ferrule or tip when striking the cue ball? Are you able to enjoy the feel of some butts that buzz because something is loose inside? Are you able to get to like the sound of a phenolic tip if used for a playing cue?

I'm not, and no amount of quality time with a cue will change that.

Some cues make a clicking sound. Others sound like they are cracked.

Try as I might, those sorts of foibles in a cue will kill any deal.

Flex

 

[StrokeofLuck]

Are you able to overcome or ignore the annoying sound of a loose ferrule or tip when striking the cue ball? Are you able to enjoy the feel of some butts that buzz because something is loose inside? Are you able to get to like the sound of a phenolic tip if used for a playing cue?

I'm not, and no amount of quality time with a cue will change that.

Some cues make a clicking sound. Others sound like they are cracked.

Try as I might, those sorts of foibles in a cue will kill any deal.

Flex

I don't disagree but I think you're talking cues that have an inherent workmanship problem or damage, that's a whole different ball game. In the highlight of my post it says your "player", I don't think that too many of us will make a cue with an annoying sound or workmanship problem our everyday cue.

 

[Jaden]

Hype!!!!!!

So then why do people bother with these shafts?

Because the shafts are hyped up or they are looking for a quick fix for knowledge that they don't have!!!!! There isn't one.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Because the shafts are hyped up or they are looking for a quick fix for knowledge that they don't have!!!!! There isn't one.

Im glad i dont have one then,lol,i have shot with almost everything too,i have had $1000+ players but right now im shooting with a $150 cue at best made by Stealth cues,and its not a dooley,lol,one of their older cues but i shoot great with it,just as well as i did and if not better then the high end cues i had,it just feel right.Where is Stealth made anyway?

 

[BPG24]

Because the shafts are hyped up or they are looking for a quick fix for knowledge that they don't have!!!!! There isn't one.

That statement may be true if you are talking about bangers, but it is definitely not true of the many people who already have knowledge/experience and use these shafts because they understand the advantages that the shafts offer.

 

[LoGiC]

Yes, I think these new 'super' (I use the term lightly) shafts, along with new cloth have changed the game.

Perhaps these changes were needed, since the general public no longer has the patience to practice.