Are you willing to put in the time?

Willing to put in the time

I agree with a lot of what has been said so far but I also think there are at least 2 distinct types of players.
1. The ones with a natural talent, the first time they pick up a cue they make balls.
2. The ones who have to learn from books or be shown to get started.
The natural talent guys can benefit from better players and information but the poor guy with no talent is going to have to work a lot harder. I know of many excellent players of both types.

One of the best examples I can think of in the natural talent is Johnny Kling, he was a famous baseball catcher for the Cubs, In 1906 he batted 312 and knocked in 46 runs, in the 1907 season he took a leave of absence from the Cubs bought a pool room and and in 1909 became world pocket billiard champion defeating Charles "Cowboy" Weston.
There are lots of Engineers, Physics experts and otherwise extremely cerebral people who have played the game of pool , some of them put in lots of time at it , to my knowledge none ever became champion. The vast majority of us fall into the number 2 category where if you put the time and effort in you can become an excellent player, but you will never be able to make some of the shots the talent guys can make.
I think the young players should all send a thank you note to Bob Byrne, Grady Mathews, Bert Kinnister, Walt Harris and several other people who put their knowledge into writing so that we could learn. before 1982 or so the information out there for American pool was Mosconi , Caras, Lassiter, Fats, Mizerak, Balukas all useless as far as learning how to play beyond stepping up to the table. Knuchell and Fels did teach the basics to get started . But thats what was available for all of us old guys. I was around 2 semi pro players growing up in Columbus Ohio but one had no clue of the mechanics, and the other wasn't telling.
As far as putting in the time , I personally know 100 guys who have played 3, 4, 5, and more times a week , gambled small and still can't run a rack of balls out of 30 so if you are going to practice I think you want to have a program rather than just knocking balls around.
 
Banging balls can be fun for a bit but it is'nt going to elevate your game. Work on specific drills. There are tons of good drills you can find online to help get you started. Best of luck.
 
I think the op has a good routine. The way hes doing it builds a great instinct for the game, which is most important overall. I feel this regardless of skill level. He/She even said they practice banks and what not, watching the natural physics of it all.
 
book collector said:
I agree with a lot of what has been said so far but I also think there are at least 2 distinct types of players.
1. The ones with a natural talent, the first time they pick up a cue they make balls.
Click to expand...


That's the interesting thing about TIO -- it takes a look at a lot of research that disproves the whole thing about natural, God-given talent, even citing examples like Mozart and Tiger Woods. When you look into the research, and even these extraordinary cases, you find out that the whole thing about natural talent is a myth. Check it out.

Lou Figueroa
 
mullyman said:
Yeah, that's quite a bit of time at the table but imagine how much more productive it would have been if you weren't just aimlessly shooting balls around. Had you been doing drills for that long you'd be that much better for it. Also, my pet peeve, your cue is not an "Adams" it's an "Adam".
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Fixed the name thingy. Thanks for pointing that out.

What makes you believe it was not productive? I did not say I was shooting around aimless, I just did not care about the result. I did not place any value on the outcome of the shot. I actually forgot about my surroundings, about what was going on around so that I was distracted less.

I've been reading a little about Zen and how it was incorporated in the maritals arts. I've read a couple of stories about the training methods used.

One that caught my eye was about a student training with a master in achery. The master had the student just pull and release the arrow without any thought about the target. The mental state was all that was important. The student had to achieve a egoless state to progess. That made me think. So the 7 hour sesion came with nothing but making shot after shot like I read about the student.

Yesterday, I spent 2 hours at the table. This was the first times since the 7 hour session on Sunday. It was so much easier to be in stroke than I have ever felt before. I felt as if my stance was just automatic rather than thinking about it.

Not a big fans of drills. There are just a few types of drills I will practice. One is working on problem shots that I encouneter during a match. There is tangent line drill I do. 15 ball free form or solid/stripe drill and single ball drills.

I see people sitting up what I call patterns drills such as a circle of 15 balls around the side pocket. I've never seen this type of pattern ever show up in a game. So, I figure why waste time on a drill that really never appears in a game.

My favorite is the 15 ball free form drill. It resembles more of what you will see during a match. Out of those 15, you can try any type you feel like. This is when creatitivity is learned.

I'm deadly with two ball combo's because during this drill, thats what I look for and shoot at as much as I can. I could never think of the variety of two balls combo that come up during this drill.

The beneifit has been that during a match I have done 3, 2 ball combos in a roll in order to win the match. The reason for the combos was do to just how the balls rolled during the match. This was 8 ball BTW.

Another beneifit of the 15 ball free form is my position play is very good. Unless doing sinlgle ball drills, there should always be at least two object balls on the table. One to make, the other to get shape on. That is what a total shot is, making the object ball and getting shape. The sooner you start learning positon play the better.

Pracitice needs to have variety and structure. As you grow in skill, your practice needs to change to provide more challenges. My drills are for where I'm at skill wise.

BTW, I'm 56. I started playing back in late early 70's at the town rec center. I loved the game from the get go. Learned alot while in the service, got to be a OK player and then faded away. While in the service, I broke my left collar bone and was place in a figure 8 harness. Two days later, I was shooting pool, anyway.

Bout 5 years ago, I bought my ADAM cue and picked up the game again. Big change during all those years. The only book I had when I started playing way back when was Mosconi's book. Now, good grief....unreal.

During this 5 years, I have had a broken right scapular, right arm in a sling for 8 weeks. Kinda kills the stroke. Some major joint inflamation to where I could not make a bridge and lastly broken right ankle and right thumb. There goes the stance and grip.

During this time, I used pool to help rehabilitate those injuires. These injuries made me have to rethink everyting I did and somethings I had to relearn or adjust for. So yeah, I kinda know from what I speak of.

Last local tourney I played in, I overheard some guys watching the match say "Where this guy come from?" I was making everything from everywhere. Thats what I play for and not for money.

FWIW
 
duckie said:
Fixed the name thingy. Thanks for pointing that out.

What makes you believe it was not productive? I did not say I was shooting around aimless, I just did not care about the result. I did not place any value on the outcome of the shot. I actually forgot about my surroundings, about what was going on around so that I was distracted less.

I've been reading a little about Zen and how it was incorporated in the maritals arts. I've read a couple of stories about the training methods used.

(SNIP)
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I still think you need more structure to be able to learn. You have BCA Master Instructors on here telling you that drills work, and what you're doing may not work ... I think you should heed their advice.

Like I said before, you WILL grow tired of this "free form" you talk about. It's good that you're not letting your brain interfere with the shots, but when you say you don't care about the outcome, I think that will breed laziness. I think that carelessness has the potential to spill into game formats and cost you position on a shot, or cause you to miss an easy ball.

Pool requires very specific movements, and your unspecific method of just running balls in any order may not be conducive to learning and excelling at the game.
 
9BallMarksman said:
I still think you need more structure to be able to learn. You have BCA Master Instructors on here telling you that drills work, and what you're doing may not work ... I think you should heed their advice.

Like I said before, you WILL grow tired of this "free form" you talk about. It's good that you're not letting your brain interfere with the shots, but when you say you don't care about the outcome, I think that will breed laziness. I think that carelessness has the potential to spill into game formats and cost you position on a shot, or cause you to miss an easy ball.

Pool requires very specific movements, and your unspecific method of just running balls in any order may not be conducive to learning and excelling at the game.
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It's not always good to assume things. From these two limited post I made you have made an assumption on how I practice at all times. I have never said drills do not work. I have never said I do not do drills. I posted the types of drills I feel are good for me based on where my skill level is.

Your post is filled with "you should" or "I think" or "may not be" and you never seen me play or even run balls. Maybe you should just think that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to my game and what is needed for me to grow in the sport. Maybe, you just don't understand what I'm really saying. I think you should just read what is written without any judgement at all, with no ego, and just take what is written for what it is, no more and no less and maybe you will learn something.

I really don't care what the BCA Master Instructors say. They too, have never seen me play or run balls, so how can they say what I need to do or work on? Sorta sounds like CTE people when they spout off. They have gotten so use to repeating the same ole stuff, that they forget that in order to suggest useful drills to people, they need to see how the person shoots and not just make blanket statements, dang, sounds like CTE'rs again.

Interesting that you say I will get tired of the 15 ball free form. You must know me better than myself. Tell me what else I will get tired of, just to save me some time.

Here is a drill for yall to try. Just put all 15 out there between the side pockets and the corner pockets at one end of the table. None on the rails, no clusters. Now run them without hitting a rail or another ball. Let me know how you do. This is one of the drills I do.

How bout all 15 out there and nothing but combo's. Try that one and get back to me.

How bout all 15 out there and nothing but banks, this will test you for sure.

Its sad that people get so set in their ways that they cannot see new ideas but instead follow the ole belief of "Its been done this way forever, so its gots to be the only way."

FWIW
 
I would be willing to put in the time to be a better player, but being married with 4 kids I'm lucky to find the time to play at all.
 
lfigueroa said:
Exactly. It's not just about hitting balls. It's about paying attention and theorizing, observing and the doing it again and again until your theories are confirmed.

A while back I read or heard an interview with a guy who said that the great ones -- the people that really achieve a high level of success in their chosen discipline, are the ones that can fractionate a task. IOW, they are able to break down what they are trying to do into tiny itsy bitsy components, far smaller than their peers. And it is this ability that allows then to successfully work on and perfect their performance.

Lou Figueroa
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You mean something like this I posted awhile back:

"Since I like ghost ball, this is the way I got there. Back in the early 70's is when I started playing pool and back then there was no where near the availble info on pool as there is now. It was all trail and error at first but kinda grew into using ghost ball. I played that way and was not too bad, but was not very serious about playing. More social than anything. I faded from playing over time.

Back about 5 years or so, with the kids grown and time on my hands, I started playing again. Of course, I just used the old ways. The difference now is that I'm more serious than before, so I really want to improve. Read and tried fractional, parallel, light/refelection aiming systems, just about anything out there to help my quest. Even tried various banks systems.

I realized that I really didn't understand what was happening to make the cue ball actually hit the object ball to put it into a pocket. I had a general idea but nothing really solid.

So, on a sheet of paper, I drew two circles touching, one representing the OB, the other representing the GB. Where they touched is the contact point.I marked both centers on the paper. Then I drew a line from the contact point toward the direction of the pocket. Then I drew another circle somewhere on the paper to representing the CB with its centered marked. Ghost ball on paper.

Studying that drawing, I noticed a few things and kinda came up with some new terms, at least for me.

One is contact patch. That is the area where the ball meets the table and is also the center of all the circles. Thats what all balls roll on.

Another is direction of travel. That would be the direction a ball rolls. I like this because the word travel implies movement which is a big part of pool and needs to be thought about. This is also what the contact patch rolls on.

Looking at just the OB and GB circles, I noticed the OB and GB contact patches and contact point are on the same line. I then realized the direction of travel of the OB really started at the GB contact patch. Also, that the GB contact patch is always 1/2 ball from the edge of the OB, as long as both are the same size.

I then included the CB circle into the mix. First thing I noticed was that if I put the CB contact patch at the GB contact patch, the OB will go in. Second, was that no matter the cut angle, I had to put the CB contact patch at the GB patch. This is why I have a hard time believing a true 90 degree cut shot. Third,that the direction of travel of the CB after hitting a OB ball starts at the GB contact patch which also the starting point for the direction of travel for the OB.

Now, I added spin into the mix. I noticed that any hit on the center line of the CB circle is right toward the GB contact point and on the CB circle direction of travel to the GB contact patch. This also means that the cue stick should be on that same line. This is the heart of shot making.

This is why learning center ball is very important.

Since the GB contact patch is always 1/2 ball from the OB edge, adjusting for side spin is just a matter of rotating the GB contact patch in the proper direction aound the edge of the OB for the side spin used. How much? Thats where table time comes in. You just can't know all about english unless you hit alot of balls with all types of spin and on different tables and hw the same table and set of balls can play different depending oh how clean and the weather. This is the biggest reason that HAMB is so important.

Something I noticed about using the direction of travel line of the OB. That was how far the pocket is from the OB really doesn't matter. What matter was this, Knowing what the direction of travel of the OB would be for the type of shot being made and picking a point on that line about 4-6 inches in front of the OB. If you put the CB on the proper point on the table to cause the OB roll over that point, than the OB will go in.

Of course this was on paper, so time to go the the table. This is where I started my GB visualzation drill. At first I used the 8 and 1 ball and the CB. I'd place the 8 on the table as the OB and the 1 on the table as the GB and the CB somewhere else on the table like I did on paper.

I'd look at the 8/1 from a straight in shot point of view then move over to where the CB was, got in my stance as if to shoot, but didn't, but just looked the 1's contact patch. I would move the CB around or the 8/1 and repeat. It looked strange doing this drill, but I really didn't care. Drills are not always about hitting balls. This is also where the Arrow comes in handy cause you can actually have the arrow on the table and just aim at its point cause its point is the same as the GB contact patch.

Now, I have realized a few more things from this. One is the the tops of the OB and CB are opposite of the contact patch. At times I use the top of the CB to sight to the where the GB contact patch would be. Sometimes I use just the tops of the CB and OB to sight. Also, I noticed my eye pattern is more up and down, looking from where the CB is to where I want to put it on the table. Unlike looking from a contact point on the OB to a spot table to where the CB shoud be and then back to the CB and back to the spot on the table to the contact point of the object for needed adjust.

Sometimes I use the lights to reference where the GB contact patch is. Sometimes I use fractional to refernece where the GB contact is.
Sometimes I use parallel to refernece where the GB contact patch is.

But I aim for the GB contact patch. There have been times, I see where the OB direction of travel starts, which is the same spot of the GB contact patch, I put the CB on that spot on the table and never really consider the OB. But this comes and goes and takes time, practice to learn.

Seldom do I even think of the contact point. I just used it to help establish the start point for the OB direction to travel. Once I have that, its forgotten. I never think about trying to hit a contact point on the OB with a contact point on the CB. Its about putting the CB at the proper point on the table to make the OB go where I want it. I never try to "see" a GB.

Anyway, this is how I got to believe what I do about making shots in pool. I thought I had something new until I got Babe Cranfields "Straight Pool Bible" and read the chapter about the arrow. I had nothing new, but I felt great that my thinking was almost exactly like his. "

There's even a drawing I attached.


FWIW
 
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duckie said:
.....

How bout all 15 out there and nothing but combo's. Try that one and get back to me.

How bout all 15 out there and nothing but banks, this will test you for sure.

Its sad that people get so set in their ways that they cannot see new ideas but instead follow the ole belief of "Its been done this way forever, so its gots to be the only way."
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are a serious dude. Have you considered measuring yourself using something like the Drivermaker Memorial Tournament ? (Sorry Bill, I know you're not dead yet, but the name stuck :shrug: ).

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=8575

.... the post that started it all. We've had a few go-rounds using this measurement method. Give it a go and post up your score. Search will turn up others scores, mine included (search "Drivermaker Memorial" and "BUD Bowl").

Dave
 
your quote from Lou is a great bit of advice....

here is more that very much applies to the idea of just hitting balls and "praticing" for hours and hours.....

I work offshore and this is what we say:

"Just because you been out here 20 years doesn't mean you have 20 years experience....remember you can put a retard out here for twenty years and he's going to have 1 years experience 20 times in a row.....

apply that to your game.......


time ain't sh*t without quality....I was a very competitive distance runner for quite some time and it works the same there too....

QUALITY of the work out will always TRUMP the Quantity of the workout....

If you can't focus to see the little details and intricacies that lou was talking about in those long hours of grueling pratice,they were just hours of screwing around....you see it, you apply it and you do it...if your not your not doing nothing but promoting the bad habits that you already have.

best wishes in your endeavor,
-Grey Ghost-
 
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It is if your name is Adam....

mullyman said:
Yeah, that's quite a bit of time at the table but imagine how much more productive it would have been if you weren't just aimlessly shooting balls around. Had you been doing drills for that long you'd be that much better for it. Also, my pet peeve, your cue is not an "Adams" it's an "Adam".
Click to expand...

atleast then it's an Adam's cue.

JAden
 
Are you willing to put in the time

When you started this thread, I thought it was an intriguing question, some other folks must have thought so too, they answered and while I don't agree with everything they said they all sounded sincere about what they believed and I don't see going back that anyone said anything harsh to you. You though, have said things that seem combative to some of the posters and have added information that had you said them to begin with may have led the thread in another direction. It is my hope that you will reread the posts and have a fresh outlook or maybe have someone you trust read them and give you their perception. If this is just about getting people angry, sorry, I don't understand.
 
Before every shot I measure with the distances between object ball, cue ball and pocket. Then I calculate the angle between each, approximate the force needed for the object ball to travel the required distance. Estimate the amount of freedom in angle I have for the shot, recalculate all numbers and then check them again.

Even more time is spent on making sure my algebra is correct. In addition to the table time. From what I've seen with the pros they can do the calculations at a glance.
 
justnum said:
Before every shot I measure with the distances between object ball, cue ball and pocket. Then I calculate the angle between each, approximate the force needed for the object ball to travel the required distance. Estimate the amount of freedom in angle I have for the shot, recalculate all numbers and then check them again.

Even more time is spent on making sure my algebra is correct. In addition to the table time. From what I've seen with the pros they can do the calculations at a glance.
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thats my system :wink:
 
Duckie, U should post a video of U shooting so peeps can see what UR talking about :):smile:
 
book collector said:
I also have a bad back, herniated and crushed discs, if your problem is not a degenerative one I would go to a sports doctor and ask about therapy and exercise, unfortuneately those just do more damage in my case, hopefully you will be ok.
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Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, it is degenerative disc. Just finished physical therapy which included decompression but with little positive results. I do have an inversion table and that seems to help somewhat. I just bite the bullet for now. Thanks again for your interest.
 
I may start off hitting balls just to get warmed up, but after warming up, I start out by doing drills, and then working on my weaknesses. I have played long enough to know what my weaknesses are.
I played my best when I had a table in the house (my current house will not accomodate a table :frown:). Being able to do drills, and work on shots every day (even if it is only for 30 minutes) made a world of difference in my consistency.
Practicing can be related to life, it is not the number of years you live, but the quality of those years that matter. I think short practice sessions working on the correct things far outpaces long practice sessions just hitting balls. JMHO
 
Easy friend. I only meant to post encouraging words, even though they didn't come across as such.

You're right, I have never seen you play. I only have what you wrote to go by. If you want everyone to give advice based on how you play, then post videos of yourself playing. If you write about how you practice, and don't show us, then all that people can comment on is what you wrote.

You expected to write all that you did and not get feedback on it? That's what a forum is. Without all of us actually seeing you, assumptions must be made. And I assume you will get tired of the 15 ball free form because it was all I did for a long time, and I got sick of it too. Then I realized that it is NOTHING close to real competition, and I sought to challenge myself further, so I moved on.

People here wanted to help you, people with a lot of experience - not only on this forum - but in the game of pool itself. You said some things to some of these people, myself included, that seemed a bit defensive, and aggressive. And for no reason. No one challenged you, people only sought to give you fresh ideas and a couple of different ways of looking at things.

Now, I personally couldn't care less if you ever make a ball again. Good day sir.



duckie said:
It's not always good to assume things. From these two limited post I made you have made an assumption on how I practice at all times. I have never said drills do not work. I have never said I do not do drills. I posted the types of drills I feel are good for me based on where my skill level is.

Your post is filled with "you should" or "I think" or "may not be" and you never seen me play or even run balls. Maybe you should just think that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to my game and what is needed for me to grow in the sport. Maybe, you just don't understand what I'm really saying. I think you should just read what is written without any judgement at all, with no ego, and just take what is written for what it is, no more and no less and maybe you will learn something.

I really don't care what the BCA Master Instructors say. They too, have never seen me play or run balls, so how can they say what I need to do or work on? Sorta sounds like CTE people when they spout off. They have gotten so use to repeating the same ole stuff, that they forget that in order to suggest useful drills to people, they need to see how the person shoots and not just make blanket statements, dang, sounds like CTE'rs again.

Interesting that you say I will get tired of the 15 ball free form. You must know me better than myself. Tell me what else I will get tired of, just to save me some time.

Here is a drill for yall to try. Just put all 15 out there between the side pockets and the corner pockets at one end of the table. None on the rails, no clusters. Now run them without hitting a rail or another ball. Let me know how you do. This is one of the drills I do.

How bout all 15 out there and nothing but combo's. Try that one and get back to me.

How bout all 15 out there and nothing but banks, this will test you for sure.

Its sad that people get so set in their ways that they cannot see new ideas but instead follow the ole belief of "Its been done this way forever, so its gots to be the only way."

FWIW
Click to expand...
 
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