back-hand swoop and cue twist poll

[dr_dave]

Do you think there are shots that cannot be made without back-hand swoop and/or cue twisting? The techniques are poorly demonstrated in NV B.33.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I suggest that everybody vote before looking at the video.

Nice job explaining the merits of these techniques, Doc.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

watch the video after you vote

I suggest that everybody vote before looking at the video.

Good suggestion.

Nice job explaining the merits of these techniques, Doc.

I think I explained more the lack of merits ... don't you think?

Dave

PS: For people who have voted already, here's the video:

NV B.33​

 

[Rahl]

Do you think there are shots that cannot be made without back-hand swoop and/or cue twisting? The techniques are poorly demonstrated in NV B.33.

That last shot where you got the 8 to curve to the corner, it looks like you stroked the ball correctly but was aiming to overcut the ball. When I first saw the video, I really thought you had the table slanted! And your voice.... you make it sound very believable, ever consider being a lawyer? :grin-square: (j/ks)

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think I explained more the lack of merits ... don't you think?

I was being clever, trying not to prejudice the vote but probably doing just that. Oh, well.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

I'm not so sure that any shots actually require swooping, but there are a few shots where you can use some swooping to advantage I believe.

-These include, downward swoop for added backspin. e.g. Downward swoop when bridging over a ball and draw is required.

-Downward swoop playing the CB off the rail, to assist better CB contact without elevatind the cue as much during alignment.

-Sideway swoop for increased english.

-Similar sideway swoop in some masse shots.

These methods seem to be able to produce high spin:speed ratios without hitting the extreme edges of the CB and hence reducing the risk of a miscue.

Though such strokes require considerable practice to develop accuracy in off center striking.

Another shot I have tried to swoop on is the power break shot and power follow shot. In this case, a slight upward swoop seems to negate the CB bouncing up effect.

It would be interesting to see if any of these effects are visible in high speed video Dave.

Oh, one more use of the swoop that I've experimented with. When using BHE and I'm forced to bridge beyong my pivot point, a little sideway swoop is a handy way to effectively increase the length of the pivot point. By the same logic, a reverse swoop (I've actually used the term swipe in the past) can be used to decrease the effective pivot point when forced to use a shorter bridge length.

Reverse swoop is hitting say left hand english using a left-to-right swoop, rather than the normal right-to-left swoop.

Maybe none of these swoop shots are required, but they are tools in the arsenal if developed.

 

[dr_dave]

trickery takes practice too

That last shot where you got the 8 to curve to the corner, it looks like you stroked the ball correctly but was aiming to overcut the ball. When I first saw the video, I really thought you had the table slanted!

The camera angle made the ball path look even less curved than it actually was. The trick ball curved almost a foot! It actually took a little practice to make it work.

And your voice.... you make it sound very believable, ever consider being a lawyer? :grin-square: (j/ks)

This was probably one of the most difficult videos I've ever filmed. It didn't help that my "helpers" were giggling in the background.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I should have been more clever/devious

I was being clever, trying not to prejudice the vote but probably doing just that. Oh, well.

I almost wish I had just posted the demo portion of the video first, before releasing the 2nd half, but I was worried about releasing such a thing on the Internet. Some people might have really taken it seriously and/or used it against me in the future.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

swoop justification

Colin,

I do plan to try to film some swoop stuff, but I need to find an expert swooper first. As you can probably tell, I'm a little skeptical concerning the value of swooping, but I still plan to look at and think about it some more. Thank you for sharing your ideas.

Regards,
Dave

I'm not so sure that any shots actually require swooping, but there are a few shots where you can use some swooping to advantage I believe.

-These include, downward swoop for added backspin. e.g. Downward swoop when bridging over a ball and draw is required.

-Downward swoop playing the CB off the rail, to assist better CB contact without elevatind the cue as much during alignment.

-Sideway swoop for increased english.

-Similar sideway swoop in some masse shots.

These methods seem to be able to produce high spin:speed ratios without hitting the extreme edges of the CB and hence reducing the risk of a miscue.

Though such strokes require considerable practice to develop accuracy in off center striking.

Another shot I have tried to swoop on is the power break shot and power follow shot. In this case, a slight upward swoop seems to negate the CB bouncing up effect.

It would be interesting to see if any of these effects are visible in high speed video Dave.

Oh, one more use of the swoop that I've experimented with. When using BHE and I'm forced to bridge beyong my pivot point, a little sideway swoop is a handy way to effectively increase the length of the pivot point. By the same logic, a reverse swoop (I've actually used the term swipe in the past) can be used to decrease the effective pivot point when forced to use a shorter bridge length.

Reverse swoop is hitting say left hand english using a left-to-right swoop, rather than the normal right-to-left swoop.

Maybe none of these swoop shots are required, but they are tools in the arsenal if developed.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,

I do plan to try to film some swoop stuff, but I need to find an expert swooper first. As you can probably tell, I'm a little skeptical concerning the value of swooping, but I still plan to look at and think about it some more. Thank you for sharing your ideas.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

Whatever small benefits accrue to swooping, it would probably be a blessing for most players if their ability to swoop was somehow removed (hence ensuring a piston like stroke).

The thing is, many top players swoop to some degree and most beginners swoop a lot. The main swooping we see is a type of subconscious correction made during the final stroke, which is done to try to correct alignment inaccuracies.

I think one reason most players find it important to stare at the contact point during the stroke is that it allows them to make those minor swooping adjustments. I cannot see how looking at the OB, once aligned, can actually make a player cue any straighter than they could by actually looking at their cue as it strikes the CB. So I think that type of swooping is endemic in the game. Almost like an unknown infection, a symptom of inaccurate pre-alignment.

The fact that it is so common, yet poorly understood, means some real measurements would be very useful in either learning how to use swoop better, or in learning how to eliminate it.

One thing that I've noted is that the elite snooker players seem to swoop the least, and this may be why they are such accurate potters.

I'd like to know some of the following from testing:

1. Can swooping upward during a force follow shot, or break shot, reduce the amount by which the CB jumps into the air?

2. How much more backspin or sidespin can I attain by a swoop shot that hits the same contact point on the CB?

3. If bridging at pivot point, how far can I make the CB divert from the path by a. Light Swoop and b. Heavy Swoop? (A little testing suggests to me that I can divert the CB about 1 inch over 6 diamonds by heavy swooping)

Colin

 

[softshot]

twisting the cue is actually a bad habit that seems to creep into my game at times

ironically it always shows up when I am shooting well... everything is going great.... and then I get a bit of a chicken wing.... combined with a wrist twist.....

and it is a bit deceptive...I'll run 3 or 4 or 6 balls like that .. before it all falls apart..

I recognized it as a bad habit... other shooters could theoretically see it as a holy grail.

It is a habit that only shows up when they are shooting well.. and they start to look for it..and encourage it.. then after time swear by it..

and another pool legend is born...

 

[RunoutalloverU]

I voted no before watching the video. I figure after watching hundreds of professional matches, if it was something worthwhile to do, you would see pros doing it and with success, niether of which I have.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm not so sure that any shots actually require swooping, but there are a few shots where you can use some swooping to advantage I believe.

I don't believe so. As Dr. Dave says, I think you can do anything without a swoop that can be done with one, and with more accuracy.

For instance:

-These include, downward swoop for added backspin. e.g. Downward swoop when bridging over a ball and draw is required.

This can be done by simply jacking up higher in the first place.

-Downward swoop playing the CB off the rail, to assist better CB contact without elevatind the cue as much during alignment.

You can simply align the shot first, and then jack up more.

-Sideway swoop for increased english.

-Similar sideway swoop in some masse shots.

These methods seem to be able to produce high spin:speed ratios without hitting the extreme edges of the CB and hence reducing the risk of a miscue.

"Seem to" is the key phrase here - they don't really do that. Viewed from the direction of the swooping tip, they can hit no farther from center than a straight stroke, and can produce no more spin.

Though such strokes require considerable practice to develop accuracy in off center striking.

And since they really add nothing, they're extremely bad practice.

Another shot I have tried to swoop on is the power break shot and power follow shot. In this case, a slight upward swoop seems to negate the CB bouncing up effect.

By "upward swoop" do you mean swooping the hand down and the tip up or vice verse? Either way it's a bad idea for the same reasons. You can't do anything "extra" with this technique (except get extra unreliability).

Oh, one more use of the swoop that I've experimented with. When using BHE and I'm forced to bridge beyong my pivot point, a little sideway swoop is a handy way to effectively increase the length of the pivot point. By the same logic, a reverse swoop (I've actually used the term swipe in the past) can be used to decrease the effective pivot point when forced to use a shorter bridge length.

Once again, you can do all this without any swooping and with much more accuracy/consistency. Neither kind of swoop really changes the effective pivot length; if you're not bridging at the real pivot length swooping won't help.

The thing to realize here is that swooping doesn't produce any more spin than not swooping - it's just a less accurate and less consistent way of changing the angle of your cue in exactly the same way you could do it more accurately and consistently without swooping.

Maybe none of these swoop shots are required, but they are tools in the arsenal if developed.

I think they're the wrong "tools" for the job and you shouldn't waste your time developing them.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

swoop testing

Whatever small benefits accrue to swooping, it would probably be a blessing for most players if their ability to swoop was somehow removed

I agree 100%.

I'd like to know some of the following from testing:

1. Can swooping upward during a force follow shot, or break shot, reduce the amount by which the CB jumps into the air?

2. How much more backspin or sidespin can I attain by a swoop shot that hits the same contact point on the CB?

3. If bridging at pivot point, how far can I make the CB divert from the path by a. Light Swoop and b. Heavy Swoop? (A little testing suggests to me that I can divert the CB about 1 inch over 6 diamonds by heavy swooping)

Colin,

Honestly, because I am so anti-swoop, I'm not that thrilled about spending a lot of time with this sort of testing, but I will do what I can. First, I need to find a proficient swooper. Do you feel like taking a trip to Colorado (I'm not implying you are a swoop maniac ... it just sounds like you are better at it than anybody I know around here)?

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

it's better to not swoop

IMO, there might some shots were a highly skilled swooper might be able to create a small advantage; but in general, I agree with all of your responses. I don't think the risks associated with swooping can justify any small advantage it might provide.

Regards,
Dave

I don't believe so. As Dr. Dave says, I think you can do anything without a swoop that can be done with one, and with more accuracy.

For instance:



This can be done by simply jacking up higher in the first place.



You can simply align the shot first, and then jack up more.



"Seem to" is the key phrase here - they don't really do that. Viewed from the direction of the swooping tip, they can hit no farther from center than a straight stroke, and can produce no more spin.



And since they really add nothing, they're extremely bad practice.



By "upward swoop" do you mean swooping the hand down and the tip up or vice verse? Either way it's a bad idea for the same reasons. You can't do anything "extra" with this technique (except get extra unreliability).



Once again, you can do all this without any swooping and with much more accuracy/consistency. Neither kind of swoop really changes the effective pivot length; if you're not bridging at the real pivot length swooping won't help.

The thing to realize here is that swooping doesn't produce any more spin than not swooping - it's just a less accurate and less consistent way of changing the angle of your cue in exactly the same way you could do it more accurately and consistently without swooping.



I think they're the wrong "tools" for the job and you shouldn't waste your time developing them.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I personally don't think there's anything "swooping" can do that non-swooping can't do. I do think pivoting eliminates perception errors many people make when mentally compensating for some shots, especially inside english. In my own very personal opinion, I can snap the CB around with inside a lot easier with pivoting vs. without using little to no "figuring."

In all fairness, not all pivoting or swooping is to impart english. Some pivoting techniques start from an english position and end at centerball-- either pre-shot or during the stroke.

I guess my question to the scientists is... if there is no benefit to backhand english, why are the Filipinos torching our guts in with it?

 

[Colin Colenso]

I don't believe so. As Dr. Dave says, I think you can do anything without a swoop that can be done with one, and with more accuracy.

For instance:



This can be done by simply jacking up higher in the first place.



You can simply align the shot first, and then jack up more.



"Seem to" is the key phrase here - they don't really do that. Viewed from the direction of the swooping tip, they can hit no farther from center than a straight stroke, and can produce no more spin.



And since they really add nothing, they're extremely bad practice.



By "upward swoop" do you mean swooping the hand down and the tip up or vice verse? Either way it's a bad idea for the same reasons. You can't do anything "extra" with this technique (except get extra unreliability).



Once again, you can do all this without any swooping and with much more accuracy/consistency. Neither kind of swoop really changes the effective pivot length; if you're not bridging at the real pivot length swooping won't help.

The thing to realize here is that swooping doesn't produce any more spin than not swooping - it's just a less accurate and less consistent way of changing the angle of your cue in exactly the same way you could do it more accurately and consistently without swooping.



I think they're the wrong "tools" for the job and you shouldn't waste your time developing them.

pj
chgo

Patrick,

I'm not endorsing all these swooping methods as preferable, though I think in some circumstances they can be.

I'm not convinced that swooping cannot exert extra spin on a CB. It is actually exerting an additional force along the line in the direction of the spin. We can get higher spin speed ratios from masse shots, so adding a vertical component of movement to the tip should alter the nature of the forces producing spin to some degree. How much of an effect that produces I am unsure about.

Perhaps it is easier to test this with side spin english, by seeing if you can make a ball turn wider off the rail using swoop than with a straight stroke. I feel it is quite intuitive to swoop shots like this when I require the maximum turn available off a rail.

For the pivot point, which is conceptual in nature and hard to define, swooping actually does change the length of the effective pivot point as I conceive it. This method has advantages when using BHE over aligning to a non pocketing contact point, a point which diverges more widely over distance. This is an advanced type of shot, but I think swooping in this case provides a reasonably predictive compensatory mechanism.

Also with rail bridging or hitting over an interfering ball. Higher elevation is one option, but that also brings with it lower accuracy. Perhaps it is a preferable coaching or playing method, but I think it's good for players to understand and compare the options.

I've seen a lot of top players who play controlled draw shots using a downward swooping motion. It's hard to say if it the other way is better for consistency of control. Opinions will vary I think. Perhaps a world champs in draw cue ball control would help to settle the argument.

It's also worth noting that some of the best ball spinners in history, including Walter Lindrum, Semih Sayginer, Efren Reyes and Mike Massey have utilized swooping on some shots. It might be rash to just assume that players who practiced such shots many thousands of times swooped only out of a bad habit. Perhaps their many trials found a swooping stroke to be preferable.

Here is a video showing how Mike Massey swoops downward on impact with the CB when doing power draw shots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg

(btw. In that video Mike says he lowers the arm in one smooth motion, but you can clearly see his hand raise on CB impact and then drop down. So most players don't even know they are doing this.)

The upward swoop I mentioned, is dropping the hand, hence raising the cue tip through delivery. Perhaps the net result is really a flattening of the stroke, but it requires swooping from the original piston (downward) line to achieve this. Yes, this is hard to control, but I have practiced and used this method in English 8 ball, where we have a lighter CB and shorter 7' table. The reason is because a power break hit piston like on that table with that CB bounces the CB upward such that it is very hard to keep on the table. The upward swoop allows the break to be hit harder without the CB bouncing off the rack as much.

As I've said, swooping is not generally a good idea. I hardly ever use it, preferring instead a piston like stroke for almost all shots, but that doesn't mean we should throw out the baby with the bathwater. Swooping has certain effects (all of them not comprehensively determined at this stage). With effects come some opportunities. I think it is good to examine those opportunities.

Do you agree that most pro players do occasionally swoop to a degree that significantly affects certain shots, be it consciously or subconsciously?

 

[dr_dave]

back-hand English vs. swoop

I guess my question to the scientists is... if there is no benefit to backhand english, why are the Filipinos torching our guts in with it?

By back-hand English (BHE), do you mean aim-and-pivot before the stroke (e.g., see my Novemebr '07 article), or do you mean swoop during the stroke (e.g., see NV B.33)? I've seen Filipino players do both. I personally think they can do whatever they want, and they will still play well. However, I think mere mortals are better off sticking to methods with greater consistency.

Dave

 

[androd]

Do you think there are shots that cannot be made without back-hand swoop and/or cue twisting? The techniques are poorly demonstrated in NV B.33.

i use bhe to prevent stiffing banks, no matter how far i'm out on the edge of the cb the normal way, a little to much force striking the ball and it seems to usually stiff, but hitting across the cb it doesn't.

 

[spoons]

I too would be interested to see the high speed video and the analysis just to see what it says. I've always been in the camp that's skeptical about swooping, and believed that the benefits of any swoop are actually the result of hitting the cue ball in a different place and not a function of the swooping action itself. I have no doubt that "swoopers" believe that they're hitting the cue ball in the same place with both types of strokes, but my unscientific, gut-feeling is that they really aren't.

That said, I know I've seen a video of Buddy Hall (maybe his "Clock System" video) where he swears by swooping or twisting of the wrist. He can play a little, so obviously whatever he's doing is working for him.

Is Massey really swooping in that video? It looks to me like his cue goes straight through the ball. His hand does come up (and his cue tip goes down) at the end of the stroke, but that looks to me to be after the ball is long gone, and it's just part of the natural pendulum motion of the stroke.