Back swing - pause/no pause is focusing on the wrong area of the stroke!

Maybe I used the wrong word there. I should have said you can't keep it from happening on power shots. Necessary was the wrong word.
You probably know more about this stuff than I do. So I'll ask- how is it that I don't drop my elbow? See my draw shot at 52:26. It obviously has a lot of power. But I clearly don't drop my elbow. What am I missing?

(EDIT: I also went frame by frame on that shot. It was a good shot! I didn't 'pause' on the back swing, but if you go frame by frame you'll see the first few frames my cue was moving slowly, the last 3 it moved quickly.)

 
Earlier in this thread I wrote a detailed post advocating for the pause at the cue ball for the same reasons you describe.

Unlike the shoulder drop and pause on the back swing, if you look at the top 30 pool players in the world essentially all of them have a pause at the cue ball. I haven't done this so I can't say positively but I believe people who don't pause at the cue ball are in the vast minority of good players.

Even Efren (who doesn't pause on the back swing) has a pause at the cue ball. He pauses, then he takes a warm up stroke and shoots. It's a premature pause but that is when he shifts from dialing in to shooting.
I believe the post you are referencing is your reply to the one I mentioned about JJ's thoughts on the pause.
 
You probably know more about this stuff than I do. So I'll ask- how is it that I don't drop my elbow? See my draw shot at 52:26. It obviously has a lot of power. But I clearly don't drop my elbow. What am I missing?
The link below exhibits the most extreme example of NO elbow drop on a power draw shot that I've seen. The shooter recreates Mike Masseys famous two lengths of a 9' table draw shot without dropping his elbow. The video starts with Mike Massey shooting the shot, then explaining how an extreme elbow drop is necessary for power draw shots:


The no-drop-elbow guy pauses on the back stroke as well.
 
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You probably know more about this stuff than I do. So I'll ask- how is it that I don't drop my elbow? See my draw shot at 52:26. It obviously has a lot of power. But I clearly don't drop my elbow. What am I missing?

(EDIT: I also went frame by frame on that shot. It was a good shot! I didn't 'pause' on the back swing, but if you go frame by frame you'll see the first few frames my cue was moving slowly, the last 3 it moved quickly.)

You dont need to get so defensive. Just having a discussion. I did see your elbow moving up and down a lot before the cue delivery. But looks like it was due to a really nice, long backswing. You had to move something to get so much cue travel.

Go back and watch the Anthony Beeler vid I posted and watch his elbow. You know his credentials.
 
The link below exhibits the most extreme example of NO elbow drop on a power draw shot that I've seen. The shooter recreates Mike Masseys famous two lengths of a 9' table draw shot without dropping his elbow. The video starts with Mike Massey shooting the shot, then explaining how an extreme elbow drop is necessary for power draw shots:


The no-drop-elbow guy pauses on the back stroke as well.
Notice how much taller Mike is over the shot then the other guy? Maybe that's why he developed that drop stroke.
 
You dont need to get so defensive. Just having a discussion. I did see your elbow moving up and down a lot before the cue delivery. But looks like it was due to a really nice, long backswing. You had to move something to get so much cue travel.

Go back and watch the Anthony Beeler vid I posted and watch his elbow. You know his credentials.
Hey buckshot. Tone doesn't come through on internet well. When I said you know more about this than I do and followed with a question, I wasn't being sarcastic or defensive. I was genuinely confused and lost and looking for clarification. We're all good.

I'm still confused. 7 stud was saying the elbow drop is unavoidable. But then he posted a video showing the opposite. You seem to say the elbow drop is unavoidable. But your response now seems to indicate that since my elbow lowered slightly BEFORE my swing it had the length needed to not have to drop after my swing?

In the end I maintain that pauses on the backswing and elbow/shoulder drops are optional. A smooth start to the forward swing is required. Do you disagree with either of these statements?
 
Buckshot- I reread my post on page 2 where I said we disagreed on the facts. I can see how my tone came across wrong there too, like I was exasperated or pissed. I swear I'm not. I was just like, 'yeah, we don't seem to be able to agree on what we see among top players, if we don't agree on what we both watch then I'm not sure we can productively progress a conversation from here'. It wasn't like "We're done here". Hahaha. Sorry man. We're really all good.

Reminds me of this:
 
Notice how much taller Mike is over the shot then the other guy? Maybe that's why he developed that drop stroke.
Look how much "The Oyster" raises his entire upper body. I think he is a bad example to go by.

For most people, if they do not drop their elbow on power shots, the arm hurts. The upper arm typically drops on such shots about its own thickness for many players. Those same players may have no drop at all for soft shots.
 
Look how much "The Oyster" raises his entire upper body. I think he is a bad example to go by.

For most people, if they do not drop their elbow on power shots, the arm hurts. The upper arm typically drops on such shots about its own thickness for many players. Those same players may have no drop at all for soft shots.
Thanks for chiming in Bob.

Question then. Suppose I don't really drop my elbow when I shoot. Do you feel this is something that I should deliberately work into my game to improve? Or just do what comes natural?

I maintain I've watched many top players generate power without an elbow drop, but I only cared about that as it helped me answer the prior question. I have concluded for myself I don't need to try to work in an elbow drop. What think you?

Also - I should note that on many shots I 'release and catch' my cue stick, i.e. I let the cue stick go entirely and catch it at the butt before it flies out of my grip hand onto the table. I have done this most of my life without noticing and don't intend to mess with it. Maybe that's how I avoid the elbow drop? I don't know. You can see it when I shoot the 8 ball a shot or two later. (I also see a slight elbow drop on that shot, whereas there wasn't one on the 6 ball).
 
Great post TinMan! Please continue posting new threads because I've found your recent posts to be the most valuable I've read in the past 5+ years. Hopefully you don't get discouraged by all of the back and forth from some people afterwards. I really appreciate them and I'm sure many others do as well. Cheers!
 
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Hey buckshot. Tone doesn't come through on internet well. When I said you know more about this than I do and followed with a question, I wasn't being sarcastic or defensive. I was genuinely confused and lost and looking for clarification. We're all good.

I'm still confused. 7 stud was saying the elbow drop is unavoidable. But then he posted a video showing the opposite. You seem to say the elbow drop is unavoidable. But your response now seems to indicate that since my elbow lowered slightly BEFORE my swing it had the length needed to not have to drop after my swing?

In the end I maintain that pauses on the backswing and elbow/shoulder drops are optional. A smooth start to the forward swing is required. Do you disagree with either of these statements?
Buckshot- I reread my post on page 2 where I said we disagreed on the facts. I can see how my tone came across wrong there too, like I was exasperated or pissed. I swear I'm not. I was just like, 'yeah, we don't seem to be able to agree on what we see among top players, if we don't agree on what we both watch then I'm not sure we can productively progress a conversation from here'. It wasn't like "We're done here". Hahaha. Sorry man. We're really all good.

Reminds me of this:
We're good. If it works for you, dont change it. I made the change due to necessity. Elbow drop becomes a big problem when it drops before tip/cue ball contact. I have no idea how Massey does it. I could never replicate that stroke and wont even try.

The smooth backstroke and the pause is how I manage a smooth forward motion. Maybe its mental but it works for me.

Oysters stoke is a different too. His elbow was actually going UP. Couldn't replicate that either.
 
Elbow drop becomes a big problem when it drops before tip/cue ball contact. I have no idea how Massey does it. I could never replicate that stroke and wont even try.
Here is a super-slow video of Mike's shot showing what he actually does with his elbow during the stroke:

His stroke might be influenced by the rail with this shot. If he were to drop his elbow early, he would crush his knuckles into the rail; and with his power, that would hurt! :eek:
 
... Question then. Suppose I don't really drop my elbow when I shoot. Do you feel this is something that I should deliberately work into my game to improve? Or just do what comes natural?

I maintain I've watched many top players generate power without an elbow drop, but I only cared about that as it helped me answer the prior question. I have concluded for myself I don't need to try to work in an elbow drop. What think you?
...
I think that nearly every top player drops the elbow some on power shots as I mentioned above. I recall one exception who is a top 50 American player. I watched carefully on his power shots. He did not drop the elbow at all, which to me means less than an inch. The end of motion seemed unnatural and he did not look comfortable. Five years later he seemed to have changed to the typical "arm's thickness drop on power shots" stroke. That's about four or five inches of elbow drop at the end of the stroke long after the cue ball is gone.

So.... There is a range of elbow drop. None. Four inches. All the way down to upper arm vertical. I think the discussion must not be just about "yes" or "no". It has to include the speed of the shot and the amount of drop. You also need to look at the timing. If you also include players with a "piston" rather than a "pendulum" stroke, the conversation gets even more complicated. Chin on cue? That has additional implications.

I'll go out on a limb and say that the "epee stroke", where the upper arm drops to vertical and goes beyond vertical as if you are thrusting in a sword fight, is not a good idea, especially on soft shots. (A short, sturdy limb.)
 
I think that nearly every top player drops the elbow some on power shots as I mentioned above. I recall one exception who is a top 50 American player. I watched carefully on his power shots. He did not drop the elbow at all, which to me means less than an inch. The end of motion seemed unnatural and he did not look comfortable. Five years later he seemed to have changed to the typical "arm's thickness drop on power shots" stroke. That's about four or five inches of elbow drop at the end of the stroke long after the cue ball is gone.

So.... There is a range of elbow drop. None. Four inches. All the way down to upper arm vertical. I think the discussion must not be just about "yes" or "no". It has to include the speed of the shot and the amount of drop. You also need to look at the timing. If you also include players with a "piston" rather than a "pendulum" stroke, the conversation gets even more complicated. Chin on cue? That has additional implications.

I'll go out on a limb and say that the "epee stroke", where the upper arm drops to vertical and goes beyond vertical as if you are thrusting in a sword fight, is not a good idea, especially on soft shots. (A short, sturdy limb.)
Thanks Bob. Lot of nuance to the elbow and shoulder movement.

To me the underlying question isn't "Yes or no", so much as "Is it required to the point that someone should relearn how to stroke to incorporate it?" To me I consider that a no. If it happens organically that is fine, but I'm not going to worry about it one way or another for myself.
 
On the other hand, I do believe that a smooth slow acceleration is required. I would be perfectly willing to go frame by frame on all of the top 30 in the world. Many would pause, many wouldn't pause, but ALL would have a slow acceleration (i.e. the first several frames of their forward swing would move the cue only inches, the last frame or two the cue would be moving quickly and cover all of the distance).
I am very sure that power can be achieved with a slow start to the swing. I have a great example and explanation in the thread linked below (the pause in the pool stroke).

There is a difference between speed and acceleration. The acceleration should be constant. The speed should be increasing. If you drop a ball off a building it has constant acceleration the entire way to the ground. Yet at the beginning of the fall it is moving slower than at the end.
You said different and indeed opposite things in various parts of these two posts. I know what you meant and only mentioning as the wording should probably be a bit more careful to avoid confusion. As you state in the second post the acceleration is constant/linear, not slow as stated several times elsewhere which would infer that it is changing rather than constant. The acceleration is constant, and the speed is ever increasing in an exponential manner.

Changing to an unrelated totally different topic, are we even sure that the rate of acceleration is constant? It is also the way I tend to explain it, and may be the best way to think about it, but I'm not totally sure if the rate of acceleration is actually constant, or rather increasing, or perhaps even decreasing at some point prior to contact, or increasing for part of the stroke and constant for another part or vice versa, etc. Anybody like Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave know for sure?
See my draw shot at 52:26. It obviously has a lot of power. But I clearly don't drop my elbow. What am I missing?

While it clearly isn't a weak shot, that isn't what I personally would see as falling into the "power" shot category, or having a "lot" of power. It was still within the spectrum of typical shots.
 
We're good. If it works for you, dont change it. I made the change due to necessity. Elbow drop becomes a big problem when it drops before tip/cue ball contact. I have no idea how Massey does it. I could never replicate that stroke and wont even try.

The smooth backstroke and the pause is how I manage a smooth forward motion. Maybe its mental but it works for me.

Oysters stoke is a different too. His elbow was actually going UP. Couldn't replicate that either.
Awesome.

I do agree that slowing everything down helps a lot. When I first started ironing out my forward swing I used a slow-motion back swing, then a pause, then a slow motion start to my forward swing, then I'd let my cue accelerate. It felt REALLY GOOD! Over time my back swing has become regular speed (but not rushed), my pause went away (but my transition is still really calm), but my stroke still starts softly. For some they love the pause. For me it was the training wheels I needed to calm my swing, just as you mentioned.

When I looked at my draw shot frame by frame I didn't pause, but there was one frame where the cue wasn't moving (during the transition), then 3-4 frames where my cue crept forward, then 2-3 frames where it sped through the cue ball. To me that is the perfect rhythm for ME. For others that want to use a more pronounced pause I think that is excellent. Provided their forward swing starts smoothly!
 
You said different and indeed opposite things in various parts of these two posts. I know what you meant and only mentioning as the wording should probably be a bit more careful to avoid confusion. As you state in the second post the acceleration is constant/linear, not slow as stated several times elsewhere which would infer that it is changing rather than constant. The acceleration is constant, and the speed is ever increasing in an exponential manner.

Changing to an unrelated totally different topic, are we even sure that the rate of acceleration is constant? It is also the way I tend to explain it, and may be the best way to think about it, but I'm not totally sure if the rate of acceleration is actually constant, or rather increasing, or perhaps even decreasing at some point prior to contact, or increasing for part of the stroke and constant for another part or vice versa, etc. Anybody like Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave know for sure?

While it clearly isn't a weak shot, that isn't what I personally would see as falling into the "power" shot category, or having a "lot" of power. It was still within the spectrum of typical shots.

Thanks Poolplaya!

Yes, big difference between cue speed and acceleration. The cue speed should start slow and increase during the swing. The acceleration should be steady.

Now, that is just in terms of a mental picture. It may indeed be that the acceleration increases as well. I think of it like pushing a kid on the swing. You start moving gently, then you get them moving more quickly, then right at send off there is a little 'push off' where you add that last nudge. I do that when I shoot as well. I start my cue softly, let it pick up speed, then add just a pinch as I go through the cue ball. It is possible that there is a gradual increase in acceleration there.

But I'm not a physics guy. I just know how it should feel. It should feel like you're accelerating smoothing and picking up speed all the way through the cue ball. The peak cue speed should be at cue ball impact or just an inch or two after (not before).

As for my shot, well, I considered it a firm shot for several reasons. One is that I know most teachers of the elbow drop (Niels, Tyler Styer) would definitely drop their elbow on a shot of that speed. Also, for me that is about the hardest I'll ever hit a shot outside of exactly the break shot. This wasn't my best set and I haven't even watched it, but I doubt I ever shoot harder than that in this race to 11. I really, really like a slower cue speed and play my angles and cue ball patterns so I rarely have to shoot this hard. It's not surprising that this example comes from him missing and leaving me something awkward. I miss my shape but go through great lengths not to leave myself flat angles when I need to move my cue ball.

Who knows, maybe that's because my power game is weak because I don't drop my elbow...:)
 
A beautiful stroke with good timing is critical to high level pool. We all know that rushing the stroke is a common blunder. Unfortunately many people do the wrong things to try to fix it. Say there are three parts of the stroke:

1) The back swing
2) The transition
3) The forward swing

Where most people struggle is rushing the FORWARD STROKE. They jam their cue stick forward which leads to inaccuracy on their aim, tip, and swing speed (all three variables of the shot go haywire!). There are many reasons people do this. Some is because they've never learned the feel of a good swing and so use way more cue speed than necessary to achieve their results. There is also a mental aspect (jamming the cue forward usually stems from a fear of underhitting the shot, i.e. not getting enough movement, not getting enough backspin, etc.). But I'm not here to focus on why this happens. I'm not even here to focus on how to fix it (very hard to discuss without a pool table although I'll try). My main point is to tell people what DOESN'T fix it.

What doesn't fix it is slowing down steps 1 and 2. I'm tired of seeing people rush their forward swing. When they try to fix it it's like they can't stop their cue from jamming forward too fast. Instead what they do is take a super slow back swing, a long pause at the cue ball, then they jam forward from there! Arg!!! No!

I don't care if you take a non-slow-motion back swing. I don't care if you don't pause. All I care about is that the forward swing starts slowly and softly and picks up fluid acceleration through the cue ball. If you start your forward swing calmly then nothing else really matters, and if you don't then trying to make up for it by chalking your cue stick slower or tying your shoe laces slower in the morning isn't going to make up for that.

Now, many of you have never developed a feel for great timing. I'm not pretending I can help through a computer. That's why I don't do zoom lessons, I'd rather you were standing next to me at a table. But if I can give a hint it is this: The right feeling should be as if you're going to shoot SOFTLY to a cue ball that is about 3" PAST where it actually sits. In other words you start your cue soft, but then you accelerate all the way through the cue ball. Your cue will be moving slowly but you will get a solid hit out of it because you are peaking out through the cue ball and all of your cue speed goes into the cue ball. Try that out. Set up stop shots, start your swing like you're going to shoot a drag draw shot (soft enough to lose your slide) but then accelerate to the imaginary cue ball 3" past where the real cue ball is.

If you do it right you will discover that you can move your cue surprisingly slowly. This is because a jam stroke has one burst of power and then decelerates through the cue ball. You have to get your cue moving twice as fast to achieve results with a jam (picture a baseball batter trying to muscle and shove his bat at the ball. We call that a bunt!). Whereas when you let your cue swing it picks up speed all the way through the cue ball and you get all of your cue speed into the cue ball.

OK, as I said, I can't explain the feel of good timing. Maybe someone else can. And I'm not here to debate whether you want to pause or not. I'm just here to tell you that if I had a nickel for every time someone used a slow back swing, paused, and then rushed their forward swing I'd be a wealthy man. And when I hear people debating about the pause I just KNOW they are jerking their cue forward after that pause because they are focused on the wrong part of the swing in my opinion. Hope that helps someone. Happy shooting!
I agree.
Understanding the transition from backswing to forward on a bio mechanical basis might help some players.
I think a lot of players think the muscles that draw the cue back are used for the return trip.
In actual fact a different set of muscles do that job.
Initiating the forward swing before the backswing muscles have finished their job creates a conflict mechanically.
The mantra of letting the backswing finish and settle before starting the stroke needs a quiet mindset.
An unhurried stroke comes from an unhurried mind.
 
Would really like a critique of this post
my first lessons were with set pause finish guys
then I took a lesson with someone who describe the stroke more as pitching pennies
smooth back smooth forward
I have bought into the concepts that slow backswing is always best
separating the backstroke speed from the forward speed
I find when trying to accelerate from the final backstroke to the Q ball and through the cue ball my stroke sometimes get punchy
like popping the clutch to speed off the line
trying to get that transition smooth instead of punchy
i think is the correct goal to strive for
your thoughts?
 
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