Backcuts: Why are they any different?

K

ktrepal85

Banned
I've always struggled with backcuts and I don't understand why, hopefully someone can explain.

It seems like my eyes have a hard time finding the shot line on backcuts. I'll get down to shoot and immediately realize that I've lined up wrong. I'll stand back up, try to see the shot again, then get down and realize that my aim is still off. I'll usually have to stand up and reset two or three times before I find the correct line to make the ball.

And oddly enough, my brain always wants to aim to undercut it into the rail, never overcut.

This is the only shot I really struggle with. The others I can get down and immediately know where I need to aim. The only other shot I sometimes struggle with is a spot shot from far away.

Before you ask: I don't use any aiming systems, I just know where to shoot most shots...except backcuts lol
 
ktrepal85 said:
I've always struggled with backcuts and I don't understand why, hopefully someone can explain.

It seems like my eyes have a hard time finding the shot line on backcuts. I'll get down to shoot and immediately realize that I've lined up wrong. I'll stand back up, try to see the shot again, then get down and realize that my aim is still off. I'll usually have to stand up and reset two or three times before I find the correct line to make the ball.

And oddly enough, my brain always wants to aim to undercut it into the rail, never overcut.

This is the only shot I really struggle with. The others I can get down and immediately know where I need to aim. The only other shot I sometimes struggle with is a spot shot from far away.

Before you ask: I don't use any aiming systems, I just know where to shoot most shots...except backcuts lol
Click to expand...
Because you're missing important visual cues that are present with other shots: the rail(s) near the OB pointing to the pocket. These visual cues are a huge part of aiming pool shots, but aren't that well known (although it's been discussed here several times).

Here's some evidence of this: on any shot (not just backcuts) imagine the OB is frozen to an imaginary rail that leads to the pocket - see how much easier that makes it to see the cut angle. This is a well known technique that's even a part of some "systems".

This visual info is also how those trick "blind" shots are made (the ones where the shooter puts a curtain up to hide the pocket). It's not the shooter's "aiming system" that makes it work; it's the visual cues we become so familiar with (mostly subconsciously) after shooting a bazillion shots.

pj
chgo

P.S. ...as you (correctly) guess too.
 
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Q: Backcuts: Why are they any different?

A: Because you think they are.

If you look at and think of a backcut as just another cut, it will be.
 
I had a similar problem except I overcut backcuts, after realizing I always overcutted, I just got down on the shot as normal and then when down aiming, I just aimed a hair towards a fuller ball hit. After a few weeks of doing this I started naturally getting down on the right aim line and stopped having to compensate. So I would try getting down as normal, then while down shift just a hair towards a thinner cut. It worked for me. One other thing I noticed is that I for some reason tended to hit reverse cuts a little hard (my home room table has stingy pockets) and once I slowed my speed down a bit, more balls fell.
 
I know this is going to sound funny but what exactly are back cuts?

I've had this discussion with different people, and received different answers.

Whatever they are, I don't think I have a problem with them. Or maybe I do and just don't know it, lol!


Royce
 
Im not optician but..

ktrepal85 said:
I've always struggled with backcuts and I don't understand why, hopefully someone can explain.

It seems like my eyes have a hard time finding the shot line on backcuts. I'll get down to shoot and immediately realize that I've lined up wrong. I'll stand back up, try to see the shot again, then get down and realize that my aim is still off. I'll usually have to stand up and reset two or three times before I find the correct line to make the ball.

And oddly enough, my brain always wants to aim to undercut it into the rail, never overcut.

This is the only shot I really struggle with. The others I can get down and immediately know where I need to aim. The only other shot I sometimes struggle with is a spot shot from far away.

Before you ask: I don't use any aiming systems, I just know where to shoot most shots...except backcuts lol
Click to expand...

Ive been a student of aiming since 2005 when I came back to pool. One of the things Ive noted about me I superimpose on people because I am a person and I would imagine that a lot of people could have the same experience as I have.

I have noted that in my play it would be really easy to always choose a thicker cut on the object ball than is needed.

My reasoning is for that is this: I think your eye will grab onto the first piece of information that it sees. The balls are round and the round portion of the ball protruding towards the player is part of the ball but its not necessarily the part of the ball you need to focus on.

So if you don't direct your gaze in a way that puts you closer to the mark I think it would be really easy to choose too thick of a cut on the shot, especially at respectable angles.

A back cut without the presence of a rail close by is shot easily shot too thick and you need to create a clue system that dials you in.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Shots where you're cutting the OB back toward the rail you're bridging over.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...



Patrick

Thanks, that explains quite a bit.

I guess I don't really see them as any different than most other shots. I know when I line up a shot, I'm only looking at the object ball when I line things up, so I guess it doesn't really matter where the rails are. I guess I'm just different.


Royce
 
ktrepal85 said:
The only thing I can think of is that I don't have the rail in my line of site to use a reference point.
Click to expand...

Simple solution - stop using reference points.

On every shot in pool, there is a "spot" on the OB, that if you hit it, the ball goes in the pocket.
I became deadly on back cuts, oddly enough from playing 3 Cushion. You are often
thin cutting the first ball backwards, much like the One Pocket shot where you shoot a Spot Shot to the "other" corner pocket.

Back to you. I recommend the most excellent idea of a progressive drill... set a ball close to the spot and put the CB about a foot away on a line giving a back cut and fire it in. If you can't make the shot,
move the OB half way to the pocket, and try again till you can make the shot AT LEAST 5 times in a row, 10 is better. Then set up another shot that is more difficult - longer, thinner, etc.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

FWIW - I use the same 'I know where to hit it' approach to aiming. If you are not "seeing" where to hit back cuts - IMHO - you just don't believe your first instinct:)

Dale(back cutting maven)
 
pdcue said:
Simple solution - stop using reference points [rails as visual cues].
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I don't think it's possible to stop using the visual cues given by the table's geometry - we do it almost entirely subconsciously.

However, I do think it's possible to substitute other visual cues, such as walking around to align the OB straight into the pocket to help you accurately locate the OB contact point.

pj
chgo
 
ktrepal85 said:
The only thing I can think of is that I don't have the rail in my line of site to use a reference point.
Click to expand...

There is also another difference. The cue ball is heading across the table and usually down table and is harder to control. It often takes a radical stroke to bring the cue ball back to the middle of the table. When you are cutting a ball down the rail you can use the rail to control the cue ball. The whole situation is easier.

If you are back cutting a ball on the short rail you may even have to go all the way to the other end of the table with the cue ball and back or three rails around the table to get back in position. All this just adds additional difficulty to the back cut even beyond just pocketing the ball.
 
ktrepal85 said:
Backcuts: Why are they any different?
Click to expand...
Below is a quote from the back-cut resource page. Most people tend to overcut these.

A back cut is a cut shot where the cue ball is shot well away from the target pocket (e.g., when the cue ball is much closer to the target pocket rail than the object ball). These shots can be more difficult than cut shots looking toward a pocket because the required cut angle can appear larger than it actually is, because you are looking away from the pocket. As a result, most people tend to overcut back cuts (i.e., they are hit too thin). For more info, see shot #6 in VEPS-I. Also, with back cuts, because you are looking away from the pocket and the near rail adjacent to the pocket, the visual cues for the pocket location are not as clear as with non-back-cuts (where you are looking toward both rails adjacent to the pocket, helping to provide better visualization of the pocket location).

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Below is a quote from the back-cut resource page. Most people tend to overcut these.

A back cut is a cut shot where the cue ball is shot well away from the target pocket (e.g., when the cue ball is much closer to the target pocket rail than the object ball). These shots can be more difficult than cut shots looking toward a pocket because the required cut angle can appear larger than it actually is, because you are looking away from the pocket. As a result, most people tend to overcut back cuts (i.e., they are hit too thin). For more info, see shot #6 in VEPS-I. Also, with back cuts, because you are looking away from the pocket and the near rail adjacent to the pocket, the visual cues for the pocket location are not as clear as with non-back-cuts (where you are looking toward both rails adjacent to the pocket, helping to provide better visualization of the pocket location).

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

This also applies to back cut banks. In one pocket there are banks that players never shoot especially at the far end rail. If they actually went and took a look at the actual angle they would see it is not that much. It is sort of an illusion.

You can often bank a ball to your pocket that is on the other side of the table, it just looks hard for some reason and it is not really.
 
dr_dave said:
Below is a quote from the back-cut resource page. Most people tend to overcut these.

A back cut is a cut shot where the cue ball is shot well away from the target pocket (e.g., when the cue ball is much closer to the target pocket rail than the object ball). These shots can be more difficult than cut shots looking toward a pocket because the required cut angle can appear larger than it actually is, because you are looking away from the pocket. As a result, most people tend to overcut back cuts (i.e., they are hit too thin). For more info, see shot #6 in VEPS-I. Also, with back cuts, because you are looking away from the pocket and the near rail adjacent to the pocket, the visual cues for the pocket location are not as clear as with non-back-cuts (where you are looking toward both rails adjacent to the pocket, helping to provide better visualization of the pocket location).

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

And I will add, when you get down on the shot, and it looks "wrong" it's probably right, take the shot. I still don't like the "picture" I get on back cuts, but I began ignoring my brain which is telling me, "hey dofus, no chance you making that shot, aim thinner" ;)

Most of the time, those are 1/2 ball hits, and just hit half the ball. But really hit the entire half. I did say "most" of the time, didn't I ;)
 
ChicagoRJ said:
And I will add, when you get down on the shot, and it looks "wrong" it's probably right, take the shot. I still don't like the "picture" I get on back cuts, but I began ignoring my brain which is telling me, "hey dofus, no chance you making that shot, aim thinner" ;)

Most of the time, those are 1/2 ball hits, and just hit half the ball. But really hit the entire half. I did say "most" of the time, didn't I ;)
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Excellent addition! I agree.

Regards,
Dave
 
ChicagoRJ said:
Most of the time, [back cuts] are 1/2 ball hits
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Picking a nit:

They're probably close enough to half ball hits a lot of the time to use half ball as the initial ("orienting") alignment, but I doubt most of them will go with an actual half ball hit - some aiming adjustment from the half ball initial alignment is usually needed.

pj
chgo
 
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