BAD CALLS in Pool ... FOULS that Weren't Called
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
The double-hit foul is obvious based on clear visual evidence. The CB cannot go forward on a shot like this without a double hit. See the info and examples in the first section of my video and the double-hit foul resource page for more info.
My argument is whether or not it went forward but slid slightly sideways along the tangent before the draw grabbed. He didn't hit the CB with straight draw.
That said:
Closest frame available. There's still breathing room, I'd have to side with your opinion.
This is what I have so far from everything shared here, on YouTube, and on Facebook:
- VanBoening near foul while using the bridge in the 2018 Eurotour
- Oi double hit in 2022 Arcadia Arizona Open
- no rail after contact against Efren
- Jones shot clock violation in 2022 Mosconi Cup
- Strickland calling wrong ball in straight pool 2016 World Tournament
- Gomez good hit, bad call in 2012 Predator Championship League
Please post others that you might know of.
Thanks for sharing this classic example. I've added it to the list.
He jumped it a little with the downward stroke, I wonder if it went forward because it was going up in the air.
That is possible. It is difficult to tell how much he elevated the cue. Although, it doesn't seem like the CB jumped enough to explain the amount the CB went forward. I think it would take more speed to hop the CB forward that much.
The rules of the period seem to have been enforced contrary to the written rules. I don't think either Jimmy or Willie considered that to be a foul stroke. I think it would have been possible to play the shot at an angle to avoid the double hit if that had been a consideration.
So the written rules at the time considered a double hit a foul? If so, do you think they just choose not to enforce it, or were they just not aware at the time of what to look for to detect a double hit?
Well, in looking at the official BCA rules of 1962 (and I think this applies to the video), we have two rules. The first is in the General Rules:
Penalties ... Player forfeits one point for: ...
1. ...
6. For striking cue ball twice on same stroke. (yes, that reads for...for)
But later in the rules for 14.1:
Push shots: A push made with one continuous stroke of the cue is legal, whether the cue ball is frozen to an object ball or not. Foul stroke is penalized by loss of one point. The referee is the sole judge in ruling on a push shot.
That is about as clear as mud. So, it appears to be whatever the ref says, even if you hit the ball twice. And the referee is given no guidance, apparently.
Thanks for the historical perspective.
Here's the latest collection of additional examples shared here and on YouTube so far:
- Jones shot clock violation in the 2022 Mosconi Cup
- Oi likely double hit in the 2022 Arcadia Arizona Open
- Gomez good hit, bad call in 2021 Predator Championship League
- He bad wrong-ball-first-jump call in 2019 World Cup of Pool
- VanBoening likely foul while using the bridge in the 2018 EuroTour
- no rail after contact against Efren
- Strickland calling wrong ball in straight pool 2016 World Tournament
- Harriman corner-hook ball drop (with legal replace) in 2015
- Bustamante wrong-ball-first foul in 2007 9 Ball World Pool Championships
- Carass double hit against Mosconi in a 1963 straight pool match
- Jones shot clock violation in the 2022 Mosconi Cup
- Oi likely double hit in the 2022 Arcadia Arizona Open
- Gomez good hit, bad call in 2021 Predator Championship League
- He bad wrong-ball-first-jump call in 2019 World Cup of Pool
- VanBoening likely foul while using the bridge in the 2018 EuroTour
- no rail after contact against Efren
- Strickland calling wrong ball in straight pool 2016 World Tournament
- Harriman corner-hook ball drop (with legal replace) in 2015
- Bustamante wrong-ball-first foul in 2007 9 Ball World Pool Championships
- Carass double hit against Mosconi in a 1963 straight pool match
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One of the more interesting fouls in fairly recent times was the one that was called on Marvin Manalo. He had the best view in the house and felt sure he hadn't fouled. The balls were very close together and he shot very softly as I recall. Unlike when things can be obvious, the balls were going to react in the same manner or very close to the same manner if he brushed the object ball before hitting the rail then hit it fuller on the way out or if he missed the object ball on the way in and only hit it coming off the cushion. Difference being he drove the cue ball to the rail if he brushed the object ball on the way into the rail, no rail reached if he failed to contact the object ball before hitting the rail. In very close play like that it is possible to brush an object ball without moving it or to rock it over a tiny amount and it settle back in the small dent in the cloth all balls sit in.
Marlin had been having a great tournament in a major event. The network TV cameras didn't support Marvin's claim but cameras can lie. The normal frame rate is thirty frames a second, anything happen between those snapshots didn't happen! Color bloom is another issue that can cause any camera, particularly a video camera, to lie. Marvin got very upset at the time feeling that he was being called a liar and a cheat and his honor was at stake. That was the end of that tournament for him. From looking like the winner he never regrouped in that match, lost it and his next one and he was done.
Marvin turned to politics soon after this event and seems to have a distinguished career in politics the last I knew. I don't know of another foul/nonfoul that has seemed to have so much impact on a person's life, and to this day I can not say with certainty what happened. I do believe the call should have went in Marvin's favor as video was inconclusive if someone understands video.
Did he or didn't he? I think the shooter should have gotten the call here. Instant replay and putting all the faith in the video, the call went against Marvin. He felt very strongly he had brushed the object ball before hitting the rail and I trust him more than the camera in this case.
Hu
Marlin had been having a great tournament in a major event. The network TV cameras didn't support Marvin's claim but cameras can lie. The normal frame rate is thirty frames a second, anything happen between those snapshots didn't happen! Color bloom is another issue that can cause any camera, particularly a video camera, to lie. Marvin got very upset at the time feeling that he was being called a liar and a cheat and his honor was at stake. That was the end of that tournament for him. From looking like the winner he never regrouped in that match, lost it and his next one and he was done.
Marvin turned to politics soon after this event and seems to have a distinguished career in politics the last I knew. I don't know of another foul/nonfoul that has seemed to have so much impact on a person's life, and to this day I can not say with certainty what happened. I do believe the call should have went in Marvin's favor as video was inconclusive if someone understands video.
Did he or didn't he? I think the shooter should have gotten the call here. Instant replay and putting all the faith in the video, the call went against Marvin. He felt very strongly he had brushed the object ball before hitting the rail and I trust him more than the camera in this case.
Hu
Dave, sorry that isn't the foul. Best I remember the object ball and another nearby were about an inch off of the end rail. The cue ball was close enough to these balls to shoot very softly. Manalo attempted a safety by brushing the object ball going into the rail. It was on youtube for a long time but I can't find it. I don't remember his opponent but pretty sure it wasn't Efren. I don't remember the event either and blind searches are turning up Marvin's political career and his brush with covid.
Somebody should remember it and when I see the video I will remember it well enough to confirm it was the one all of the controversy was about. It was on youtube but I can't find it with my lack of surrounding information.
Hu
Not all fouls are created equal. Sure a person can commit a foul and not call it on themself for a instant reward. I’ve never done that. If I double hit the CB and can feel it in the cue-even if it doesn’t sound like a double hit or look that way if I foul I call it on myself. Always have.
I’ve told this story before. Not all fouls are the instant reward type of thing. A foul can set the tone in a match and it effectively becomes part of a hustle. Certainly doesn’t justify it or make it right but it works.
Nothing to be proud of but back in the 80’s when I had to make ends meet. I had a guy (who still plays out of Sacramento) I called a foul on once and the honest truth is I thought it was a foul. I was getting the 7B playing 9B I can’t recall if it was call 7 or wild. Doesn’t matter. Anyways I called the foul on the guy-he went bat shit crazy. At the time we were just starting for the day $50/set seems about what we played for in 88-89. Enough $ it wasn’t “social” pool.
So I called the foul, he lost his mind. I didn’t really argue the point as I wasn’t 100% certain it was a foul. Was a close hit-not close enough to have someone else watch it. I didn’t push my side of the story, I said “take BIH and finish the rack”. So he did. He missed BIH, he’s a solid A player. Zero chance he should miss by 3”, I had him rattled. Hmmmmm I thought. I won that set and the next. Cheers, good day.
About a week or 2 later we tee it up again, I was losing a set and it wasn’t looking good. What can I do to win? I asked myself. Then it occurred to me that he missed BIH after the bad call……..so I looked for the right time and called a foul-when it clearly wasn’t a foul. And like the time before I let him have BIH and apologized for calling it. He missed BIH again. Gin!
We played probably 5-6 more times with the 7, I always respected him for giving me the right weight, the 8 wasn’t enough. I broke even once. He couldn’t beat me, I knew his number-call a foul and then apologize. Not the nicest move. But hustlin is hustlin. I wouldn’t do that these days.
Maybe someday I’ll apologize to him. Funny thing is we were always pretty cool when we were at the pool room together. We rode around a few times a few years later.
Not all fouls are what they appear.
Fatboy
I’ve told this story before. Not all fouls are the instant reward type of thing. A foul can set the tone in a match and it effectively becomes part of a hustle. Certainly doesn’t justify it or make it right but it works.
Nothing to be proud of but back in the 80’s when I had to make ends meet. I had a guy (who still plays out of Sacramento) I called a foul on once and the honest truth is I thought it was a foul. I was getting the 7B playing 9B I can’t recall if it was call 7 or wild. Doesn’t matter. Anyways I called the foul on the guy-he went bat shit crazy. At the time we were just starting for the day $50/set seems about what we played for in 88-89. Enough $ it wasn’t “social” pool.
So I called the foul, he lost his mind. I didn’t really argue the point as I wasn’t 100% certain it was a foul. Was a close hit-not close enough to have someone else watch it. I didn’t push my side of the story, I said “take BIH and finish the rack”. So he did. He missed BIH, he’s a solid A player. Zero chance he should miss by 3”, I had him rattled. Hmmmmm I thought. I won that set and the next. Cheers, good day.
About a week or 2 later we tee it up again, I was losing a set and it wasn’t looking good. What can I do to win? I asked myself. Then it occurred to me that he missed BIH after the bad call……..so I looked for the right time and called a foul-when it clearly wasn’t a foul. And like the time before I let him have BIH and apologized for calling it. He missed BIH again. Gin!
We played probably 5-6 more times with the 7, I always respected him for giving me the right weight, the 8 wasn’t enough. I broke even once. He couldn’t beat me, I knew his number-call a foul and then apologize. Not the nicest move. But hustlin is hustlin. I wouldn’t do that these days.
Maybe someday I’ll apologize to him. Funny thing is we were always pretty cool when we were at the pool room together. We rode around a few times a few years later.
Not all fouls are what they appear.
Fatboy
Please post a link to the shot if you can find the video. Thanks.
Jennifer Baretta vs. LoreeJon Hasson (Turning Stone XXXI): It was hill-hill. At around 2:34, LoreeJon played a safe and hooked Jennifer on the one ball. Jennifer kicked and hit the one ball, but nothing hit a rail. The announcers caught it, but neither player did. LoreeJon left Jennifer a shot, and Jennifer finished the rack.
FYI, Roberto Gomez's good hit happened in 2021. I thought about mentioning this match, because of the ref's reaction.
Here is the full match, it happened at 9:50.