Balance point

[JoeyInCali]

Pretty sweet you got to actually touch the magician's wand.

What do you mean by 'darter'? I don't see much similarity between Chua and Aranas' techniques and Efren's.

A balance point behind rear hand is pretty much impossible lol. It would literally fall backwards and you would struggle to keep shaft on your bridge hand.

I'd say my cue is very back-weighted with a balance point about 15" from the butt, which still gives me over a foot of cue to grab and stay behind it. And I play a very loose grip too so the back weighted cues are for death grippers comment is pretty off base. (Not by you Hu, someone else above)

People will have their preferences for how they want the cue to feel. For me, back-weighted cues have a feel of 'shooting themselves' and are ideal for any technique that aims to let the cue do the work.

If I made cues with a balance point under 18" from the bottom, they wouldn't sell.
Both Chua and Aranas let the cue slide.
Chua even demonstrates it on his power draw.

Forward weighted cues stay in line EASIER be cause they stay on the bridge hand with less effort.
The balance point has nothing to do where you grip the cue. Jim Rempe even debunked that on his pool school video.
Mosconi's book, which he didn't even write himself, supposedly, created a fable.

The MARKET today wants 58" cues with balance point above 18" from the bottom in general.

It is easier to move the cue ball with that kind of balance.

 

[WobblyStroke]

If I made cues with a balance point under 18" from the bottom, they wouldn't sell.
Both Chua and Aranas let the cue slide.
Chua even demonstrates it on his power draw.

Forward weighted cues stay in line EASIER be cause they stay on the bridge hand with less effort.
The balance point has nothing to do where you grip the cue. Jim Rempe even debunked that on his pool school video.
Mosconi's book, which he didn't even write himself, supposedly, created a fable.

The MARKET today wants 58" cues with balance point above 18" from the bottom in general.

It is easier to move the cue ball with that kind of balance.

I didn't say the balance point is affected by where you grip it. Just that the grip hand is always behind the balance point, even on the most extremely back-weighted cues.

I'll debate your last statement. I move the ball around with great ease and have a massively powerful stroke with relatively little effort (more rhythm and timing rather than muscling it). For me, a rear balanced cue feels the best to do that with. Won a cue with a forward balance and hated it. Not that I couldn't move the ball around with that either.

 

[ShootingArts]

Pretty sweet you got to actually touch the magician's wand.

What do you mean by 'darter'? I don't see much similarity between Chua and Aranas' techniques and Efren's.

A balance point behind rear hand is pretty much impossible lol. It would literally fall backwards and you would struggle to keep shaft on your bridge hand.

I'd say my cue is very back-weighted with a balance point about 15" from the butt, which still gives me over a foot of cue to grab and stay behind it. And I play a very loose grip too so the back weighted cues are for death grippers comment is pretty off base. (Not by you Hu, someone else above)

People will have their preferences for how they want the cue to feel. For me, back-weighted cues have a feel of 'shooting themselves' and are ideal for any technique that aims to let the cue do the work.

I have played with severely backweighted house cues when the pickings on the wall were thin. That floating off the bridge feeling is annoying. Had to go to a closed bridge or putting a little down pressure on the front of the cue with the grip hand. Either way, thinking about the cue distracted from playing.

A big part of where we want the balance point depends on playing style. On a big table I tend to move my hand back and almost any cue will have the balance point between my hands. On a seven foot table I tend to move my grip hand forward and play a different style. Works very well and I think I should go to this style full time. With the grip moved a long ways forward like you can see in a lot of old school video, then it is possible to get the grip hand forward enough to get the floating bridge issue. I like to play with a slip stroke sometimes just for fun. A forward balance works better for that too.

At one time I had a theory that maximum distance between your hands was a good thing. It worked OK when I was shooting full time, not so well when I rarely play. I like a wrapped cue but hate the feeling of two different surfaces under my hand so usually play wrapless. One of these days I am going to get somebody that still uses a big spool to wrap with to wrap most of a butt for me so my hand can wander wherever it wants to.

Hu

 

[JoeyInCali]

I didn't say the balance point is affected by where you grip it. Just that the grip hand is always behind the balance point, even on the most extremely back-weighted cues.

I'll debate your last statement. I move the ball around with great ease and have a massively powerful stroke with relatively little effort (more rhythm and timing rather than muscling it). For me, a rear balanced cue feels the best to do that with. Won a cue with a forward balance and hated it. Not that I couldn't move the ball around with that either.

Your grip will always be behind the balance point if the balance point is above the wrap/handle.
On the average , the top of the handle is 17" from the bottom.
15" from the bottom balance point will make cues undesirable on the market.
Even then , you still would grip behind the balance point.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I have played with severely backweighted house cues when the pickings on the wall were thin. That floating off the bridge feeling is annoying. Had to go to a closed bridge or putting a little down pressure on the front of the cue with the grip hand. Either way, thinking about the cue distracted from playing.

A big part of where we want the balance point depends on playing style. On a big table I tend to move my hand back and almost any cue will have the balance point between my hands. On a seven foot table I tend to move my grip hand forward and play a different style. Works very well and I think I should go to this style full time. With the grip moved a long ways forward like you can see in a lot of old school video, then it is possible to get the grip hand forward enough to get the floating bridge issue. I like to play with a slip stroke sometimes just for fun. A forward balance works better for that too.

At one time I had a theory that maximum distance between your hands was a good thing. It worked OK when I was shooting full time, not so well when I rarely play. I like a wrapped cue but hate the feeling of two different surfaces under my hand so usually play wrapless. One of these days I am going to get somebody that still uses a big spool to wrap with to wrap most of a butt for me so my hand can wander wherever it wants to.

Hu

Wow, that grip hand of yours must really wander forward. I'm 6'3" so I just can't get that compact if I tried.
What you say about the short strokes and forward weighting def makes sense and is probably why Alex Pagulayan says he prefers a forward weighted cue for 1pocket. I've heard many 1p or even straight pool guys prefer the forward weight as it gives them more feel on those little touch shots.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Your grip will always be behind the balance point if the balance point is above the wrap/handle.
On the average , the top of the handle is 17" from the bottom.
15" from the bottom balance point will make cues undesirable on the market.
Even then , you still would grip behind the balance point.

Yes, 17-18ish is more like what it was before I dumped a bunch of extra wrap material on it to fatten the butt up like Earl. The balance point was def in front of the wrap. Now it is on the front portion. But at my height, I never get up that far up the cue anyway.

 

[garczar]

i believe i have read that a back weighted cue helps your cue stay on line
anyones thoughts on this?

that's the gospel according to bob meucci. he's always pimped back-weighted cues.

 

[ShootingArts]

Wow, that grip hand of yours must really wander forward. I'm 6'3" so I just can't get that compact if I tried.
What you say about the short strokes and forward weighting def makes sense and is probably why Alex Pagulayan says he prefers a forward weighted cue for 1pocket. I've heard many 1p or even straight pool guys prefer the forward weight as it gives them more feel on those little touch shots.

I am six-two and could easily get much more compact. I have played gaff games where we both just used a shaft. However, the hand forward doesn't involve a pendulum stroke or a twenty inch front bridge! Shorten the bridge to eight or ten inches, drop the elbow, now you are in the middle of the wrap or further forward. You are also playing how many people, maybe most, played when the wrap was positioned where it usually is many years ago. For your style of play and the way I play sometimes I wanted a cue wrapped all the way to about an inch from the buttcap.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

More weight farther back = more inertial resistance to sideways movement.

Not really imo
If you have a soft hold at near the end of the wrap and that heavy added bolt is behind your grip, it doesn't help.

Inertial resistance is unaffected by the grip, and it's actually more effective the farther back it is.

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

I am six-two and could easily get much more compact. I have played gaff games where we both just used a shaft. However, the hand forward doesn't involve a pendulum stroke or a twenty inch front bridge! Shorten the bridge to eight or ten inches, drop the elbow, now you are in the middle of the wrap or further forward. You are also playing how many people, maybe most, played when the wrap was positioned where it usually is many years ago. For your style of play and the way I play sometimes I wanted a cue wrapped all the way to about an inch from the buttcap.

Hu

Ye I wrapped mine right to the end. I also go as far as mid (original) wrap. But as JoeyinCali mentioned, most balance points are in front of the wrap. Even my originally kind of back-weighted cue was in front of the wrap before I added all the extra overwraps that moved the balance back even further.

 

[JoeyInCali]

that's the gospel according to bob meucci. he's always pimped back-weighted cues.

Easier to manufacture

 

[The_JV]

I don't really care

Nailed it... Easily the most inconsequential characteristic/spec of a cue. Narrowly beating out weight.

 

[xX-Wizard-Xx]

Nailed it... Easily the most inconsequential characteristic/spec of a cue. Narrowly beating out weight.

if you say so ...

 

[WobblyStroke]

Nailed it... Easily the most inconsequential characteristic/spec of a cue. Narrowly beating out weight.

Interesting take. But we disagree here as I literally had to sell a beaut of a cue (that I won, not bought) bc the balance was so far forward it felt kinda foreign to me...like I had to do more to get as much out of it. Absolutely could just be a 'feel' thing not rooted in physics but I didn't like playing with it. To me, a cue's balance is a key component of how it will feel to dance it back and forth and get a real feel for speed control.

 

[xX-Wizard-Xx]

i still dont really care about weight or balance .... i prefer an 18 oz cue but i can play just fne with most anything .... really balance i dont give a rip about

 

[The_JV]

Interesting take. But we disagree here as I literally had to sell a beaut of a cue (that I won, not bought) bc the balance was so far forward it felt kinda foreign to me...like I had to do more to get as much out of it. Absolutely could just be a 'feel' thing not rooted in physics but I didn't like playing with it. To me, a cue's balance is a key component of how it will feel to dance it back and forth and get a real feel for speed control.

Well truth be told... I made that comment without considering anyone else's playing style.

I have a traditional snooker stroke. Which includes resting my chin and chest on the cue while shooting. Balance point and weight hardly matter if at all when you're actively pressing the cue into your bridge with body weight.

I can completely understand why weight and balance would matter to a more upright shooter.

 

[The_JV]

I have a traditional snooker stroke. Which includes resting my chin and chest on the cue while shooting. Balance point and weight hardly matter if at all when you're actively pressing the cue into your bridge with body weight.

I can completely understand why weight and balance would matter to a more upright shooter.

So here's a doodad that I had the chance to use the other night:

One of my teammates asked me to give this a go. His take on it was that the additional forward weight greatly improved his ability to shoot off the rail. I on the other hand felt zero benefit.

Again, as a player with a traditional snooker stroke/stance. I press down on the cue with body weight, and subsequently shooting off the rail doesn't phase me.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Again, as a player with a traditional snooker stroke/stance. I press down on the cue with body weight, and subsequently shooting off the rail doesn't phase me.

Shooting over a ball is a more severe test. Also, a rail bridge may be a lot shorter than a player's standard bridge so the grip hand will be closer to the balance point. The open bridge may feel insecure.

 

[The_JV]

Shooting over a ball is a more severe test.

It is for sure. I'm fortunate to have enough flexibility to still keep my chin on the cue even when bridging over most obstructions.

Also, a rail bridge may be a lot shorter than a player's standard bridge so the grip hand will be closer to the balance point. The open bridge may feel insecure.

Definitely a shorter bridge, and the grip hand will always be relative to forearm position.

I can only speak for myself, but I never experienced a lack of confidence with an open bridge off the rail. The key for me and how I explain it to others is to press the tip into the rail as you stroke and eventually shoot. The goal with the open bridge is to maintain horizontal alignment not hold the cue in place in the vertical axis. Downward pressure on the cue, (chin and chest) is what keeps it there and prevents the tip from riding up as your stroke through the CB. I realize that not everyone's mechanics are the same, but this technique is snooker 101...

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I can only speak for myself, but I never experienced a lack of confidence with an open bridge off the rail. ...

Pleas for help on shooting off the rail are common. You were lucky to get good instruction (or examples) early on.