Eric , I am really struggling with this concept .. can you post a pic as to what you are calling a plain jane worth 2k .. i need to see the materials
you are talking about using ..
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Eric , I am really struggling with this concept .. can you post a pic as to what you are calling a plain jane worth 2k .. i need to see the materials
you are talking about using ..
For me to even seriously consider utilizing cue making as a means of viable income, as in a job that pays bills, i'd need $2000 for each cue like this. These are pretty common examples of my P/J cues, nice woods & nice rings, 2 shafts, approx. 30hrs. of labor in each one. Half of that would be just enough to cover all the incurred costs and leave a little left over to restock materials or else spend a nice day with my family at the miniature golf park & a nice lunch.
Seems outlandish at first, until you break things down & really begin considering everything you do in a cue and how much it actually costs you to build them. On first glance, getting $800-$1000 for a cue like this would seem like good money. But the reality is that you spend a lot more to build them than you think. It's a little here, little there. When you consider it all, the costs really begin to chip away any profit margin.
The less work you do, the higher your profit must be to make good business sense, and likewise. But likewise isn't a feasible option with cues unless you have a factory to produce a high number of cues and can move enough of them that the low profit margins still add up to a manageable sum. But for custom builders, we have to know how to keep a cue straight because we are held at higher standards. You have to be able to send a cue to Singapore, that cue survive the extreme humidity for a few years, then get resold to somebody in Las Vegas and survive the extreme dry. If your cues can't handle that, then you won't get a global market, meaning you won't get a market large enough to support your endeavor. There are only so many people who buy custom cues. Then you gotta be able to move cues even when you are not the trendy cue maker that's currently "in style". Just because you build a good cue doesn't mean anybody's going to buy it. You'll have to accept what somebody will pay, or else quit building cues. Pretty simple stuff. It's not the peaches & cream so many newer builders dream it'll be.
Contrarily, cue making is a lot of enjoyment & sometimes even exciting. It's nice to get out to my man cave & do my thing. I get to work with power tools, cut wood, build things, solve problems, figure things out. It's fun. I go to shows & tournaments and meet lots of awesome people, make a lot of friends. I get to know folks from all over the world. There are many, many benefits aside from money. Getting to know other cue makers & sharing beer & burgers, phone calls, etc. with people like me is pretty dang cool. In my experience, cue makers have been a fairly tight nit group in general. And why not? We all know the ins & outs of the craft and deal with the same things, the same people. Hanging out with Jay & Monkey, Capao, OMG, Sarah, Justin, Cleary, E1, etc. at Texas De Brazil is friggin fun. Seeing Cleary do slap push-ups after eating 30lbs of steak is funny as hell. The people in the industry make it an enjoyable experience even if the income isn't so great. So it's not a bad gig. It's just not something to get into thinking it'll make you a lot of money because it won't. Just do it because you love it and things will be fine. Get a sugar momma or have a real job would be the only solid advise I can offer anybody wanting to build cues.
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Hi,
Come on guys it's not all that bad. Right now the economy sucks but it will get better and people will have money to buy very nice expensive cues again.
If it does not and "Comrade Obama" gets away with destroying the middle class and we are all on the street starving, I have a contingency plan.
I am building a lethal injection machine Called Dr. Cue meets Dr. Kavorkian. It will be made out of a knock off Hightower headstock and the spare parts I need will come from the old Brianna inventory. No need for an E Stop on this baby because it is the ultimate final taper pass and if the machine crashes the big gouge in the aluminum billet stock can be called "Art" ready for the Smithsonian.
The only catch is that in order for me to get it right, I will have to be doing a lot of beta testing for repeatability verification. Anyone want to take a ride for free? I guarantee your paperwork will be correct on your history card file. Using statistical process control I will be sure to get the job done in the least amount of time in a most efficient manner.
Just don't call me for and appointment during Perry Mason of Cash Cab. Oh I forgot, MeTV is starting to run the old Kojac series again. I will have to add that to the list also. Who loves you baby. :speechless:
Like the Roman gladiators used to say, Eat, drink, be merry and make cues, for tomorrow you may die.
Rick
Come on guys it's not all that bad. Right now the economy sucks but it will get better and people will have money to buy very nice expensive cues again.
If it does not and "Comrade Obama" gets away with destroying the middle class and we are all on the street starving, I have a contingency plan.
I am building a lethal injection machine Called Dr. Cue meets Dr. Kavorkian. It will be made out of a knock off Hightower headstock and the spare parts I need will come from the old Brianna inventory. No need for an E Stop on this baby because it is the ultimate final taper pass and if the machine crashes the big gouge in the aluminum billet stock can be called "Art" ready for the Smithsonian.
The only catch is that in order for me to get it right, I will have to be doing a lot of beta testing for repeatability verification. Anyone want to take a ride for free? I guarantee your paperwork will be correct on your history card file. Using statistical process control I will be sure to get the job done in the least amount of time in a most efficient manner.
Just don't call me for and appointment during Perry Mason of Cash Cab. Oh I forgot, MeTV is starting to run the old Kojac series again. I will have to add that to the list also. Who loves you baby. :speechless:
Like the Roman gladiators used to say, Eat, drink, be merry and make cues, for tomorrow you may die.
Rick
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I've been building cues for ten years now and I make a pretty good living. I take two vacations a year went moto crossing the last three , cost of new bike 7500.00 paid cash , racing for the year 10,000. before the resection I was living a dream , well now I get by and I'm ok with that , why because I'm not working for the man. I go into work sometimes at noon work till 3-4 AM and no body yelling at me , I will take less pay for that. Yes it sucks right now with the economy so down as I feel I'm building the best cues of my life the fullsplice dream I call it . I wanted to build cues like that for years and now I am mastering it . am i getting paid for it HELL F-ING NO but I press on because this is ware God led me its my God given talent . all in all it is a lot of hard work is it for everyone no they probably won't make it. D Hill
Darrin,
You are my friend and have watched you boot strapped your shop and skills to A # 1 in my book. Your full splice cues with the core on a half splice cut prone are like Star Trek voyages. You are truly going where no man has gone before.
Most high end full splice cues I see have the crotch buried under a wrap. You custom jigs and talent allow you to display them for the world to see the symmetry and evenness that can be attained.
When you get $ 2,500.00 for one of those babies I am proud of you because you are holding to the convictions of a proprietary sale. You earned those vacations.
Dam the torpedoes, get paid for you talent. Yea, thats the ticket.
Rick
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Thanks Rick, and through the years you have helped me out with new ways of doing things , like the shaft joint trick by using a cut off pin in the end to turn it in works every time and save me from spinning my wheels , thanks . it has been a long tough road for me as so many times I walk a way for a bit but this new found love for the fullsplice has be back and loving it . do it right and the money will follow . I'm my own worst critic pulling off wraps 3 times , clearing my cues twice , picking out the perfect piece of wood and going out to find my own shaft wood , must I go on oh yeah the shop of course set up.
the time it took me to master the bottom miter endless hours.
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using paper veneers in a fullsplice so new school show me the money!!
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cored handles on the fullsplice
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last but not least the small vary but vary set up shop , I have two or three of everything I'm crazy like that. I feel if I get snowed in for six months no prob I have 99 plus of everything in stock just build cues and let it snow.........
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the time it took me to master the bottom miter endless hours.
using paper veneers in a fullsplice so new school show me the money!!
cored handles on the fullsplice
last but not least the small vary but vary set up shop , I have two or three of everything I'm crazy like that. I feel if I get snowed in for six months no prob I have 99 plus of everything in stock just build cues and let it snow.........
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Thanks Rick for the kind words,
You know I hold the price on these cues at 2,500.00 and don't wavier. What I do is very hard and time consuming as I am not just and an simple plain jane. Anyone with a Hightower lathe and Chris's book can do that.
I have taught you a lot about cue making and you have advanced at by yourself to a very high level and I am also proud of your results since you have crossed over to the Dark Side and gone full time as a pro.
You have introduced me to the statistical process control and have help me wright my QA/QC manual which we both know is a continuing work in progress. Since doing this my time per cue is faster and my accuracy has gone up a lot with very few mistakes. I was stubborn at first and thought I was so good that I could fly by the seat of my pants, as you call it. I am that good but now I am better. Just making my blueprints and color coding my tools and bits alone lets me flow with the procedure because as you told me, I flows better because you take out the fast decisions that can make you screw up. Since I wrote my step procedures I find that after a day in my I am less tired and I don't have to re think all of the time. Trust the process control and buy in to it 100%. I love it.
I have been following this thread and I see many who have argued with you reasoning and our methods. My advise to them is go with the grain and have an open mind. The procedures that Rick and I use in our shops are base on Nuclear Power Plant Standards put out there by the federal codes. It is the highest standard there is.
AS you know Rick, I am on my Rev 3 jigs for the full splice procedure and each time I refine my procedure and jig it gets better and is faster.
I don't know why any one would not want to be better and faster. BTW, thats how I won 2 Senior Moto Cross Titles.
Here are a couple of pics of my Rev 3 Full Splice Customs I have for the show in 16 days.
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You and I have a special goal in combining our shop for very special cue projects to the oversea agents you have networked with. As you reminded me to do, everyday when I wake up I visualize bags of money with wings flying into our pockets and customers that are 100% satified because the quality is that high. Dream it and believe it, then live it with no net under the tight wire act. You and I are very much alike because we have both been risk takers all of our life. Like you point out 'calculated risks".
See you at the show,
Darrin
You know I hold the price on these cues at 2,500.00 and don't wavier. What I do is very hard and time consuming as I am not just and an simple plain jane. Anyone with a Hightower lathe and Chris's book can do that.
I have taught you a lot about cue making and you have advanced at by yourself to a very high level and I am also proud of your results since you have crossed over to the Dark Side and gone full time as a pro.
You have introduced me to the statistical process control and have help me wright my QA/QC manual which we both know is a continuing work in progress. Since doing this my time per cue is faster and my accuracy has gone up a lot with very few mistakes. I was stubborn at first and thought I was so good that I could fly by the seat of my pants, as you call it. I am that good but now I am better. Just making my blueprints and color coding my tools and bits alone lets me flow with the procedure because as you told me, I flows better because you take out the fast decisions that can make you screw up. Since I wrote my step procedures I find that after a day in my I am less tired and I don't have to re think all of the time. Trust the process control and buy in to it 100%. I love it.
I have been following this thread and I see many who have argued with you reasoning and our methods. My advise to them is go with the grain and have an open mind. The procedures that Rick and I use in our shops are base on Nuclear Power Plant Standards put out there by the federal codes. It is the highest standard there is.
AS you know Rick, I am on my Rev 3 jigs for the full splice procedure and each time I refine my procedure and jig it gets better and is faster.
I don't know why any one would not want to be better and faster. BTW, thats how I won 2 Senior Moto Cross Titles.
Here are a couple of pics of my Rev 3 Full Splice Customs I have for the show in 16 days.
You and I have a special goal in combining our shop for very special cue projects to the oversea agents you have networked with. As you reminded me to do, everyday when I wake up I visualize bags of money with wings flying into our pockets and customers that are 100% satified because the quality is that high. Dream it and believe it, then live it with no net under the tight wire act. You and I are very much alike because we have both been risk takers all of our life. Like you point out 'calculated risks".
See you at the show,
Darrin
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There has been some tremendous information being shared here about the process of manufacturing in such a way to not only reduce and minimise mistakes, but more importantly a way to monitor the business as a whole.
TD's, technical directives are very useful in the manufacturing industry.It does cost time to do the initial work, abit like a cnc macro program. But once done, it can be modified and improved with little time to update.
Sometimes, just changing the order of some things, can have a big impact on the delivery time while maintaining quality, conversely getting something out of order or sync can cost you time for the delivery. This one I know well.
TD's, technical directives are very useful in the manufacturing industry.It does cost time to do the initial work, abit like a cnc macro program. But once done, it can be modified and improved with little time to update.
Sometimes, just changing the order of some things, can have a big impact on the delivery time while maintaining quality, conversely getting something out of order or sync can cost you time for the delivery. This one I know well.
Wow Darin,
When I was at your shop last month those cues were squares and the fronts were on the table. You were cutting the angle cuts for me and Jim with the rev 3 jigs. I saw the one with the star the night you won our eight ball tournament but you really got busy.
I Know you have a ton of rings and other wood components seasoned with taper cuts but that production of those cues is awesome.
Hills Cues are really something special and I know they will turn some heads at the show.
Keep on trucking.
Rick
When I was at your shop last month those cues were squares and the fronts were on the table. You were cutting the angle cuts for me and Jim with the rev 3 jigs. I saw the one with the star the night you won our eight ball tournament but you really got busy.
I Know you have a ton of rings and other wood components seasoned with taper cuts but that production of those cues is awesome.
Hills Cues are really something special and I know they will turn some heads at the show.
Keep on trucking.
Rick
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Task sheets
Rick,
Those task sheets are a great idea. They avoid a lot of mistakes specially in simple tasks that are not done everyday. These is even more important for those of us that do not make many cues, therefore a lot of time can pass between one procedure and the next time its repeated.
Now I have to go around and collect all my little scrap paper notes...and make blueprints
Thanks,
Mario
Rick,
Those task sheets are a great idea. They avoid a lot of mistakes specially in simple tasks that are not done everyday. These is even more important for those of us that do not make many cues, therefore a lot of time can pass between one procedure and the next time its repeated.
Now I have to go around and collect all my little scrap paper notes...and make blueprints
Thanks,
Mario
Hey Moe,
I love that show. The only reason Paul Jr. Wears the mask of the artist or designer is that he is getting paid $ 36,000.00 per episode which he earned from riding on his father's success and hard work build that business. Paul Jr. lacks the initiative to take the bull my the horns and put the time in to learn the flowjet and the computer design software that Jason uses when he the creates a new bike design. Vinney is the real talent as he pretty much does more skilled disciplines than the egotistical punk.
If I worked for my dad at OCC you could bet the farm that I would learn and become an expert in all areas instead of acting like I am some kinda of creative primadona because of his huge inflated ego. You can become a journeyman in 10 years but no one becomes an expert in just ten years. That is just the way it works.
Paul Jr. is a malcontent brat punk who bite the hand that feed him and could not even show up to work on time. That's nuts.
The Chinese have a philosophy for success that works every time.
Be on time.
Be prepared.
If you do these two simple things daily in you life and some criticizes any results of your efforts in a non constructive manner, ignore them for they don't understand the secrete of success and have missed the boat.
Rick
I love that show. The only reason Paul Jr. Wears the mask of the artist or designer is that he is getting paid $ 36,000.00 per episode which he earned from riding on his father's success and hard work build that business. Paul Jr. lacks the initiative to take the bull my the horns and put the time in to learn the flowjet and the computer design software that Jason uses when he the creates a new bike design. Vinney is the real talent as he pretty much does more skilled disciplines than the egotistical punk.
If I worked for my dad at OCC you could bet the farm that I would learn and become an expert in all areas instead of acting like I am some kinda of creative primadona because of his huge inflated ego. You can become a journeyman in 10 years but no one becomes an expert in just ten years. That is just the way it works.
Paul Jr. is a malcontent brat punk who bite the hand that feed him and could not even show up to work on time. That's nuts.
The Chinese have a philosophy for success that works every time.
Be on time.
Be prepared.
If you do these two simple things daily in you life and some criticizes any results of your efforts in a non constructive manner, ignore them for they don't understand the secrete of success and have missed the boat.
Rick
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Rick,
Those task sheets are a great idea. They avoid a lot of mistakes especially in tasks that are not done everyday where you have to retink on the spot. These is even more important for those of us that do not make many cues, therefore a lot of time can pass between one procedure and the next time its repeated.
Now I have to go around and collect all my little scrap paper notes...and make blueprints
Thanks,
Mario
Hey Mario,
Your notes on scrap paper are the basis for your QA/QC system as you have already documented an initial beta phase. On to Rev.1 and beyond.
Rick
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wow!
I read this thread when it first came out and didn't realize the value of the information disclosed here. I think I had an epiphany.
I have been persuing this madness of cue building for about a year and a half. I have been stabbing here and there, changing methods almost every time I build another cue. I have exponentially increased my skills, knowledge, and ability. I have a long way to go but I can build a cue that looks nice and plays great.... and now I find it is time to focus.
I came back to this thread and read it word for word. All I can say is "WOW". I missed the entire core of the discussion. "Stand back" when you read it and just listen to what is said. Time to build a cue is long and tedious but can be whittled down by consistancy.
Now I am writing up my various procedures to hang on the wall. These will lead me every time I build a cue. I hope order will force consistancy into my equation. This, I know, will take me to the next level.
Thanks to all that contributed here. I know that what I gleaned from this heated conversation was not the original topic but it was a wealth of information nevertheless.
Kim
I read this thread when it first came out and didn't realize the value of the information disclosed here. I think I had an epiphany.
I have been persuing this madness of cue building for about a year and a half. I have been stabbing here and there, changing methods almost every time I build another cue. I have exponentially increased my skills, knowledge, and ability. I have a long way to go but I can build a cue that looks nice and plays great.... and now I find it is time to focus.
I came back to this thread and read it word for word. All I can say is "WOW". I missed the entire core of the discussion. "Stand back" when you read it and just listen to what is said. Time to build a cue is long and tedious but can be whittled down by consistancy.
Now I am writing up my various procedures to hang on the wall. These will lead me every time I build a cue. I hope order will force consistancy into my equation. This, I know, will take me to the next level.
Thanks to all that contributed here. I know that what I gleaned from this heated conversation was not the original topic but it was a wealth of information nevertheless.
Kim