Bank shots vs kick shots

cue ball

I have to ask the most obvious question, what kind of a table are you playing on and what balls are you using? How old?

Bar tables, mismatched ball sets, or very old ball sets the cue ball is going to behave differently. I went to an old pool hall and they gave me a set of balls where the cue ball didn't look much bigger than a walnut.

Try kicking using an object ball. If your kicking improves just from that the problem is probably a substantially different cue ball which you expect to behave the same as the object balls.

Hu
 
The ONLY reason kicking should be harder than banking is unintentional side spin placed on the CB (which is a pretty significant factor). Otherwise, kicking should always be easier than banking. Just like how normal cut shots are easier than shooting combinations.
 
Plagueis said:
How is it that I can make banks shots 90% of the time but make kick shots only 5% of the time (if that) any idea what my flaw could be because I don't know. Maybe My stroke is off :( any advice is welcome and what drills can I do to up my game with kick shots.
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My advice is keep playing the bank shots and only play the kick shots when you really have to - you are onto a winner.

jsp said:
The ONLY reason kicking should be harder than banking is unintentional side spin placed on the CB (which is a pretty significant factor). Otherwise, kicking should always be easier than banking. Just like how normal cut shots are easier than shooting combinations.
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Banking is easier than kicking for most players. As is "normal" cutting compared to combination shots. Unintentional side is a fact of life here - hence banking being easier than kicking. But when does a "normal" cut become a "thin" cut?
 
there is so much nuance and variability with kicking, it can be mind-boggling.

Hu touched on some of the basic ones, balls (type & condition), cloth, rails, table brand, etc.

and what kind of spin, if any, is being applied to whitey. And how a low punch shot is going to react differently coming off a rail than a high center hit and also how slow speed will react much different compared to going into a cushion at high speed and on and on.

all of these and more can affect where your cue ball is going to head off of a rail or multiple rails.

I've become a proficient kicker as a result of the KAMB method. Yes, Kick A Million Balls. :eek: Talk about school of hard knocks. ;) So I now kick by feel.

There are some very helpful systems out there and the one I believe is the best is Lil Joe V's Clock System. A system like his can save someone an awful lot of time. :thumbup:

the basic angles are the starting point from where we can lengthen or shorten the cue balls path with different spins.

Keeping it simple, I would strongly urge anyone trying to get started with kicking to first become proficient at sending the cue ball around an empty table three rails shooting from the footspot, potting whitey in the corners from where you are shooting. Go around both left and right paths and keep doing so until you can pot whitey pretty consistently and when it doesn't drop, at least get it to where you're confident that if an object ball were hanging in that corner, you will have made it.

The exact same geometry of angles will exist on whatever pool table you play on, however, the variability in conditions and equipment will always come into play..

SO

I suggest that you take the cue ball on whatever table you are getting ready to play on and place it on the footspot and do the same 3 rail drill discussed above and you will be able to quickly gauge whether the table is kicking long or short, and also, if there's any difference when going around the left path compared to the right. This will let you know what adjustments may be needed.

You can also hit a few one rail cross table V kicks, both narrow and wide, to see how the tables are acting before a match.

get good at the 3 railers and get a system like L'il Joe V's Clock System and you'll be well on your way to some good kicking results. :smile:

best,
brian kc <---- would be packing for dcc if I could make 90% of my banks. :)
 
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Plagueis said:
I've trained myself to see the bank angles through practice. Find the natural angle and adjust from there. I still miss on occasion but things only get easier. With me, leaving me with a bank shot isn't a safe play. I've made some amazing bank shots and remember them better than my mistakes which is always nice to look back on. :D nothin quite like finishing a game with an 8ball bank shot. People tend to hold their breath a little...
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My guess is, you can kick the cue ball into the pockets just fine. It's kicking into the object ball that is the problem. Practice conditioned you to the fixed pockets and not other locations around the table. Plus, the pockets are twice the size of an object ball, so there's more room for error on the angle.
 
Scott Lee said:
Plagueis...It's because when you bank a ball only a small portion of sidespin can be transferred from the CB to the OB. When you kick, even a tiny bit of unintended sidespin will cause the CB to come off the rail at different angles, causing you to miss your kick. Speed and spin are the culprits with kicking.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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Exactly what I was going to suggest as well... (but I have actually attended The Scott Lee School of Physics). As well, contact with a slick phenolic ball will not transfer nearly as much of the spin as will the textured cloth covered rail. The cloth will bite hard while the slick OB will slip off some of the spin during contact.
 
Spin.

When you bank a ball, the OB has the opposite spin as the CB.
When you kick a ball, the CB hits the rail with the same spin it leaves the cue tip with.
 
I think I have opened up a can of worms I may not be ready for. Kick shots seem to be a lot more complex that I ever thought
 
you may be suffering from information overload

Plagueis said:
I think I have opened up a can of worms I may not be ready for. Kick shots seem to be a lot more complex that I ever thought
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I have always considered kick shots easier than banks. You may be suffering from information overload. While there is a ton of good information in this thread all you really need to be aware of is going rail first any spin usually needs to be pretty moderate.

Something you should know from banking, hitting adjacent rails tends to keep the spin and only modify it slightly or it can decay and go away. Hitting opposite rails reverses spin or kills it. That is why you can do things like a three rail kick using the rails on both sides of the side pocket.

Try to use minimum spin kicking and think about the collision induced spin you are going to get off the rails but I think once you figure out which of the things in this thread is causing you problems kicking you will soon love to kick. Playing fairly weak one pocket competition most people are shy about kicking afraid they will give up a ball. Pretty often it is possible to kick into a dead ball in the stack, or dead combination. That scores a point, moves balls towards your pocket, and leaves you in excellent position to score more points. That alone is enough reason to be able to kick at least decently.

Another sweet thing, people will often give you kicks thinking you won't risk pretty easy kicks. A few shots win most sets. Not having kicks in your arsenal will take away some of those few shots.

Don't suffer paralysis by analysis, just go hit some kicks in practice and think about the key points in this thread!

Hu
 
Scott Lee said:
Plagueis...It's because when you bank a ball only a small portion of sidespin can be transferred from the CB to the OB. When you kick, even a tiny bit of unintended sidespin will cause the CB to come off the rail at different angles, causing you to miss your kick. Speed and spin are the culprits with kicking.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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Agreed.
Use center ball, and no English when kicking to make a ball. If you're playing safe then it really doesn't matter.
Remember that kicking, like banking, is all in how the mind's eye sees the shot. Practice, practice, practice. :smile:
 
ShootingArts said:
I have always considered kick shots easier than banks. You may be suffering from information overload. While there is a ton of good information in this thread all you really need to be aware of is going rail first any spin usually needs to be pretty moderate.

Something you should know from banking, hitting adjacent rails tends to keep the spin and only modify it slightly or it can decay and go away. Hitting opposite rails reverses spin or kills it. That is why you can do things like a three rail kick using the rails on both sides of the side pocket.

Try to use minimum spin kicking and think about the collision induced spin you are going to get off the rails but I think once you figure out which of the things in this thread is causing you problems kicking you will soon love to kick. Playing fairly weak one pocket competition most people are shy about kicking afraid they will give up a ball. Pretty often it is possible to kick into a dead ball in the stack, or dead combination. That scores a point, moves balls towards your pocket, and leaves you in excellent position to score more points. That alone is enough reason to be able to kick at least decently.

Another sweet thing, people will often give you kicks thinking you won't risk pretty easy kicks. A few shots win most sets. Not having kicks in your arsenal will take away some of those few shots.

Don't suffer paralysis by analysis, just go hit some kicks in practice and think about the key points in this thread!

Hu
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Are you talking about just hitting the ob when kicking, or actually making the ob?
 
both

Neil said:
Are you talking about just hitting the ob when kicking, or actually making the ob?
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Both depending on the shot. JA kicked seven or eight rails and jawed the pocket with his object ball when it was one diamond out on a bar table when he was playing me. Took several minutes lining up the shot so no doubt it was intentional. Hell of a shot with 10-12 balls still on a bar table for traffic and it took a lot of english to get that shot started.

The shot that announced to the local players that this kid was for real about a hundred years ago was a kick into a carom with the carom about ten inches from the ball kicked and another six inches or so to the side pocket of a bar table from the carom. The original kick was about three-quarter table into the head rail and of course roughly half a table back. Generally when kicking I am trying to make a ball or nestle the cue ball or object ball into a cluster to leave a nice problem to be solved. Rarely am I kicking just to hit a ball. Almost always something I can do to improve my situation.

Hu
 
it's time to develop how your tip target on the cue ball relates to the diamonds

Freeze an object ball to every diamond on the table. Then, "kick" the balls into any pocket until you start to understand how the diamonds fit together. Also notice how much easier it is if you use a firm stroke and a "touch" of inside.

Now it's time to develop how your tip target on the cue ball relates to the diamonds....one "tip" of english will alter the "kick" one diamond (going cross table) - it's half as much when going "length of the table" (one diamond equals one half a "tip" of english).

'TIP Banking Secrets' covers this in detail. (43 Chapters) in DVD or PPV (@ www.cjwiiley.com) - Click here for a free video clip.




Plagueis said:
How is it that I can make banks shots 90% of the time but make kick shots only 5% of the time (if that) any idea what my flaw could be because I don't know. Maybe My stroke is off :( any advice is welcome and what drills can I do to up my game with kick shots.
Click to expand...
 
I think the problem you have is you know where the pockets are...

The pockets don't move, so over time you get used to banking balls in and the angles to take balls to a pocket. With kicking, the object ball and cue ball can be in varying places and its not as easy to learn paths to the object ball as it is paths to a pocket. Throw in the fact that a small amount of spin, both horizontally and vertically makes a big difference it becomes even harder. A ball is also quite a bit smaller than a pocket as far as targets are concerned.

I would highly recommend Tor Lowry's Zero X Kicking System. It really does make kicking a lot easier. 1, 2, 3 and more rail kicks become simple. Not only that but within a day of practicing the system just contacting a ball from a kick wasn't good enough. I was being almost as accurate as if I shot at the ball directly. I was able to kick at balls and make them and kick at balls with precision to play safe off them and snooker my opponent.
 
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