Banking for newbies

[ShootingArts]

comment from a "feel" banker

I bank by "feel". Often I can't say why I shoot a shot the way I do except that it has worked for decades, it will still work now. However, and folks this is a great large however, I made a handful of balls the very first day after reading Freddy's book that were pretty iffy before I read it. That is a lot of bang for thirty bucks.

The very first thing anyone needs to do before starting play on a table is to check the cushions and check how that particular table is banking, at the moment. No system in the world including Freddy's can account for the balls, cloth, and cushions. However once you factor in these little details, Freddy's way of doing things is the easiest way to bank. Yup, you read right, the easiest. It is a lot easier to modify from a solid base. If your shot has some error in it to begin with then it is tougher to make corrections since corrections are not proportionate inside and outside the bank.

Hu

 

[Bob Jewett]

That would be correct, but I don't think that's what doc is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, doc). I think he said to aim the OB at the #1 diamond on the far side (line A in the diagram below), then pivot until your butt is halfway back to the #2 diamond on the near side (line B).

In the diagram below, if the OB is anywhere along line A (so your butt is over point A), then your butt must be pivoted over to point B for the adjusted bank. But there's only one correct mirror path from point B to the pocket, which is line B in the diagram. So the OB must be on line A *and* on line B (at their intersection) in order for the adjusted angle to = the mirror angle. Anywhere else and the angle is off.

This problem is reduced as the two angles get closer together (mine are farther apart for illustration), and for small adjustments like in doc's diagram its probably an OK approximation, but it's not exactly "true geometry".

pj
chgo

CueTable Help

Good analysis and example. In your diagram, if the ball moves so that it is only one diamond off the bottom cushion on the red line, the system says to shoot it straight across the table, so the system becomes increasingly bad as the object ball moves towards you, with the system putting in too much correction. If the object ball is near the far rail, it looks like the system will not add enough correction.

 

[klockdoc]

That would be correct, but I don't think that's what doc is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, doc). I think he said to aim the OB at the #1 diamond on the far side (line A in the diagram below), then pivot until your butt is halfway back to the #2 diamond on the near side (line B).

In the diagram below, if the OB is anywhere along line A (so your butt is over point A), then your butt must be pivoted over to point B for the adjusted bank. But there's only one correct mirror path from point B to the pocket, which is line B in the diagram. So the OB must be on line A *and* on line B (at their intersection) in order for the adjusted angle to = the mirror angle. Anywhere else and the angle is off.

This problem is reduced as the two angles get closer together (mine are farther apart for illustration), and for small adjustments like in doc's diagram its probably an OK approximation, but it's not exactly "true geometry".

pj
chgo

CueTable Help

I see what you are saying now, Patrick. I was using the system for long rail only. Never used it on the short rails. I can see where it will not work on the short side.

But based on what you are saying, look at the diagram below on the long rail shot. It doesn't seem to matter where the placement of the object ball is, the contact point is still the same.

Now when you get to the positon of the 3 ball, (or beyind the mirror point),you notice that the angle is a back cut and you will have to shorten the angle up going to the pocket.

CueTable Help

Or am I missing something on this as well?

Also, why does it seem to work on the long side, if it actually does?

 

[Jal]

That would be correct, but I don't think that's what doc is saying (correct me if I'm wrong, doc). I think he said to aim the OB at the #1 diamond on the far side (line A in the diagram below), then pivot until your butt is halfway back to the #2 diamond on the near side (line B)....

Yes, I realized that I completely blew it after shutting down the computer and heading off for my constitutional. My apology.

To make amends, I worked out just which ball positions his system should work, but I think I'll defer to you and others since it could very well be garbage too.

Jim

 

[Russ Chewning]

Your calculation is incorrect, whether you buy my book or not. Your solution comes up with an angle that will come up short unless you hit it with an easy speed or add english. It is not a natural angle. Your math is 2 divided by 1 plus 1 3/8" (which is almost a 1/8 diamond) is what you claim to be the natural angle for a medium speed, center ball dead -on hit, which is referred to as the universal starting point for a natural shot. The actual math for a natural bank angle that will work on most pool tables and most cushions is divide the angle (diamond 2 divided in half = diamond 1) and then subtract approx. 1/4 diamond. You are adding approx. 1/8 diamond |(1 3/8"). This will work only if you add something to the shot, ie. english, draw or slow speed. I will still have a life if you dont buy my book. There are thousands of satisfied customers that are now robbing their previous bank nemeses with the help of my solutions.

the Beard

EXACTLY! Freddy, I only read the first two sentences of your post, but my first thought upon seing the OP's diagrams was that he was either:

A: Playing on an extremely dry table, AND hitting the bank at lag speed

or

B: Outside english was being used on the banks

Just by eyeing his angles, I can tell they will come up significantly short when hitting a bank at a good medium speed.

Russ

(Take this with a grain of salt.. Remember, every sez I'm a C player.. Including ME! )

 

[bruin70]

You never ran across one of those long rail banks in the end of 9 ball or 8 ball??

only the pros.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I see what you are saying now, Patrick. I was using the system for long rail only. Never used it on the short rails. I can see where it will not work on the short side.

But based on what you are saying, look at the diagram below on the long rail shot. It doesn't seem to matter where the placement of the object ball is, the contact point is still the same.

Now when you get to the positon of the 3 ball, (or beyind the mirror point),you notice that the angle is a back cut and you will have to shorten the angle up going to the pocket.

CueTable Help

Or am I missing something on this as well?

Also, why does it seem to work on the long side, if it actually does?

If the ball you pivot on is exactly 2/3 the distance across the table, you get a 2:1 ratio of movement at opposite rails and your adjustment works perfectly for all angles. Balls pretty near that distance will probably work too, providing you choose your "reference" angle to be as close as possible to the ball so the adjustment is small. But balls not near 2/3 of the distance away probably don't make with this method, especially those on the near side of the table.

 

[klockdoc]

If the ball you pivot on is exactly 2/3 the distance across the table, you get a 2:1 ratio of movement at opposite rails and your adjustment works perfectly for all angles. Balls pretty near that distance will probably work too, providing you choose your "reference" angle to be as close as possible to the ball so the adjustment is small. But balls not near 2/3 of the distance away probably don't make with this method, especially those on the near side of the table.

Well thank you for your input. I thought this was a simple system and could be used by others to their advantage, but, it appears that it was not thought out thoroughly and completely. However, I am happy to hear that the angles of the shots are correct and the ball can be made utilizing those angles if the 2/3rds requirement is met.

It just seemed whenever I measured it up, it worked out correctly. I guess the ball was always laying in the correct useable area. I can see though that it will not work on the short side rail banks.

Maybe I will switch just to the visualization method instead as I use on the short rail banks. Might even use the parallel system you started a thread on.

 

[Scottster]

Do all of these systems work equally the same in, say Arizona vs Florida?

NO

 

[GADawg]

I am confused

klockdoc

I understand what you are trying to do. I think it will get you close but in most cases the bank will be short unless you correct with speed or spin.

However, I am having a difficult time seeing where on the table this system would have practical application.

Can you explain to me how to use it with the object ball in the position shown below? Maybe I'm just thick.

CueTable Help

 

[klockdoc]

klockdoc

I understand what you are trying to do. I think it will get you close but in most cases the bank will be short unless you correct with speed or spin.

However, I am having a difficult time seeing where on the table this system would have practical application.

Can you explain to me how to use it with the object ball in the position shown below? Maybe I'm just thick.

CueTable Help

GaDawg, The ball that you are showing is beyond the practical application position of 2/3rds of the table position as Patrick pointed out in his prior post. Thus, it will not work with this method. This is the section I had not really thought out. As I mentioned earlier, all the balls I was testing were within the area that would work.

However, I have tried banking these that do work and the ball banks into the pocket.

This is what is confusing to me. For example, posters are saying if the object ball is the middle diamond track on a long rail bank, and I bank the object ball into the first diamond, I will come up short on the bank.

Now all the diagrams that I have seen, indicate also that this shot can be made and indicate so with drawings showing the same path.

It appears that everyone is saying that this ball will bank in short! But, I haven't run across this in my trials.