Banking

D

Dave Nelson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not a banger but I'm trying to work my way up to that level.

I recently bought "Banking With the Beard". I thought, and still think, that some knowlege of the art of banking would help my pathetic game. Are you there Freddy?

Open your books to page 23. This shows the effects of draw, center ball and follow on a one rail cross corners bank. I set up the shot as shown and set my camcorder in direct line with the path of the object ball. I then shot 3 shots each way, draw, center,follow, with the following results.

Draw.
1.Straight in to the corner pocket.
2.Ditto
3.Ditto

Center.
1.Slight left curve to the side rail.
2.Very slight left curve catching the left corner of the corner pocket.
3.Very slight left curve to side rail about 1 inch short of corner pocket.

Follow.
1.Straight. Side rail just short of corner pocket.
2.Straight to corner pocket.
3.ditto.

These results were obtained on my second attempt and were observed at 1/4 speed on the replay.

Obviously, I am doing something wrong, but what could it be on such a simple exercise?

Dave Nelson
 
Dave Nelson said:
I'm not a banger but I'm trying to work my way up to that level.

I recently bought "Banking With the Beard". I thought, and still think, that some knowlege of the art of banking would help my pathetic game. Are you there Freddy?

Open your books to page 23. This shows the effects of draw, center ball and follow on a one rail cross corners bank. I set up the shot as shown and set my camcorder in direct line with the path of the object ball. I then shot 3 shots each way, draw, center,follow, with the following results.

Draw.
1.Straight in to the corner pocket.
2.Ditto
3.Ditto

Center.
1.Slight left curve to the side rail.
2.Very slight left curve catching the left corner of the corner pocket.
3.Very slight left curve to side rail about 1 inch short of corner pocket.

Follow.
1.Straight. Side rail just short of corner pocket.
2.Straight to corner pocket.
3.ditto.

These results were obtained on my second attempt and were observed at 1/4 speed on the replay.

Obviously, I am doing something wrong, but what could it be on such a simple exercise?

Dave Nelson
Click to expand...

So now you know why most pros use low english on almost all Bank shots. You get a better, cleaner hit using low. They only use high english when playing One Pocket. But that's another topic.
 
Dave Nelson said:
I'm not a banger but I'm trying to work my way up to that level.

I recently bought "Banking With the Beard". I thought, and still think, that some knowlege of the art of banking would help my pathetic game. Are you there Freddy?

Open your books to page 23. This shows the effects of draw, center ball and follow on a one rail cross corners bank. I set up the shot as shown and set my camcorder in direct line with the path of the object ball. I then shot 3 shots each way, draw, center,follow, with the following results.

Draw.
1.Straight in to the corner pocket.
2.Ditto
3.Ditto

Center.
1.Slight left curve to the side rail.
2.Very slight left curve catching the left corner of the corner pocket.
3.Very slight left curve to side rail about 1 inch short of corner pocket.

Follow.
1.Straight. Side rail just short of corner pocket.
2.Straight to corner pocket.
3.ditto.

These results were obtained on my second attempt and were observed at 1/4 speed on the replay.

Obviously, I am doing something wrong, but what could it be on such a simple exercise?

Dave Nelson
Click to expand...

Could be a million things. Could be humidity, quality/type of cloth, quality/type of rails, your aim, your stroke. That's just for starters.

I think those solutions are a base-line since all equipment plays differently. Shoot a few, see where the ball goes, make your adjustment and you're off to the races.

If you miss differently all the time, well, you're doing something wrong.
 
Spider;

I think those solutions are a base-line since all equipment plays differently. Shoot a few, see where the ball goes, make your adjustment and you're off to the races.

That's a pretty good description of my regular practice habit.

Thanks for the reply.

Dave Nelson
 
"So now you know why most pros use low english on almost all Bank shots. You get a better, cleaner hit using low. They only use high english when playing One Pocket. But that's another topic."

Thanks Jay, but that still doesn't tell me why my efforts don't approximate what is shown in the book. Is the Beard mistaken?

S.E. Wisconsin is a real backwater as far as pool is concerned. The only room in the area that has the facilities to host a straight pool tournament is Romines on the south side of Milwaukee and as far as I know they aren't doing anything. Why don't you come over and stir up some action. I'll buy you a beer.

Dave Nelson
 
Dave Nelson said:
This shows the effects of draw, center ball and follow on a one rail cross corners bank.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about kicks? Draw/follow on the CB should have no effect on banks.

For kicks the important thing is what kind of "vertical spin" the CB has on it when it hits the rail:

- CB sliding when it hits the rail will rebound with no curve at the "mirror angle" (minus something for rail friction)

- CB with forward spin (including natural roll) when it hits the rail will curve longer than the mirror angle

- CB with backspin when it hits the rail will curve shorter than the mirror angle

How much longer or shorter the CB rebounds (with forward spin or backspin) depends on how much spin is on the CB* and how much friction there is between the CB and the cloth.

For banks the important thing is how much vertical spin is on the OB when it hits the rail. This can only be controlled by hitting harder or softer (harder = less or no forward spin; softer = more forward spin). This is also why hitting harder shortens bank angles.

pj
chgo

*How much spin is on the CB depends on:
- how hard it's hit
- how high it's hit
- how far it is from the rail when it's hit
- how much friction there is between CB/cloth
 
Last edited:
Patrick

Nope, not talking about kicks. One rail cross corner bank with object ball frozen to rail. Wish I knew how to use that cue table thing.

Dave
 
Dave Nelson said:
"So now you know why most pros use low english on almost all Bank shots. You get a better, cleaner hit using low. They only use high english when playing One Pocket. But that's another topic."

Thanks Jay, but that still doesn't tell me why my efforts don't approximate what is shown in the book. Is the Beard mistaken?

S.E. Wisconsin is a real backwater as far as pool is concerned. The only room in the area that has the facilities to host a straight pool tournament is Romines on the south side of Milwaukee and as far as I know they aren't doing anything. Why don't you come over and stir up some action. I'll buy you a beer.

Dave Nelson
Click to expand...

You didn't read the fine print Dave. It says "The Beard is never wrong!"
I'll take that beer now. :smile:
 
bank and kick effects and videos

Patrick,

Good summary. FYI to you and others, I have more info, with video links, here:


I've also added your quote below on the same page.

Regards,
Dave

Patrick Johnson said:
Are you talking about kicks? Draw/follow on the CB should have no effect on banks.

For kicks the important thing is what kind of "vertical spin" the CB has on it when it hits the rail:

- CB sliding when it hits the rail will rebound with no curve at the "mirror angle" (minus something for rail friction)

- CB with forward spin (including natural roll) when it hits the rail will curve longer than the mirror angle

- CB with backspin when it hits the rail will curve shorter than the mirror angle

How much longer or shorter the CB rebounds (with forward spin or backspin) depends on how much spin is on the CB* and how much friction there is between the CB and the cloth.

For banks the important thing is how much vertical spin is on the OB when it hits the rail. This can only be controlled by hitting harder or softer (harder = less or no forward spin; softer = more forward spin). This is also why hitting harder shortens bank angles.

pj
chgo

*How much spin is on the CB depends on:
- how hard it's hit
- how high it's hit
- how far it is from the rail when it's hit
- how much friction there is between CB/cloth
Click to expand...
 
What????

Patrick Johnson said:
Are you talking about kicks? Draw/follow on the CB should have no effect on banks.


Are you sure about this line? I play a little bank pool, and I can assure you that Draw and follow both have an effect on banks. Just as shooting a kick shot with draw will have an effect on the angle. Maybe I just misunderstood
Click to expand...
 
What????
Patrick Johnson said:
Are you talking about kicks? Draw/follow on the CB should have no effect on banks.
Click to expand...

Are you sure about this line? I play a little bank pool, and I can assure you that Draw and follow both have an effect on banks. Just as shooting a kick shot with draw will have an effect on the angle. Maybe I just misunderstood
Click to expand...

Maybe not so sure when the OB is frozen to the rail (I didn't realize that was the setup here), but I am sure when the OB is away from the rail at all. Did you mean rail-frozen? If not, what effect do you get with follow or draw on the CB?

pj
chgo
 
Depends

Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe not so sure when the OB is frozen to the rail (I didn't realize that was the setup here), but I am sure when the OB is away from the rail at all. Did you mean rail-frozen? If not, what effect do you get with follow or draw on the CB?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I guess I really didn't notice the original posters setup was frozen. Makes the shot a lot harder to gauge the hit. And also depends on the angle of the setup too. If the object ball is close to the side pocket{and frozen to the rail}, on the wide cross corner, you can make the object ball do a masse' using top. This still works to some extent when the ball is off the rail just a few inches.
It's hard to figure exactly what he's shooting without diagrams, and I don't have Freddie's book. Guess I really should add it to my collection. Maybe at the DCC this year.
 
Satman

"If the object ball is close to the side pocket{and frozen to the rail}, on the wide cross corner, you can make the object ball do a masse' using top."

Okay, that describes the situation perfectly. But, according to the Beard, the ob should masse' with either draw or follow and go straight on center ball hit.

Dave Nelson
 
Sorry Jay, you didn't read the large print. That beer is payable only on site, Racine, Wi or its near environs.

Dave
 
Look at the diagram again

Dave Nelson said:
Satman

"If the object ball is close to the side pocket{and frozen to the rail}, on the wide cross corner, you can make the object ball do a masse' using top."

Okay, that describes the situation perfectly. But, according to the Beard, the ob should masse' with either draw or follow and go straight on center ball hit.

Dave Nelson
Click to expand...

Dave, on page 23 there is no object ball in the diagram. It's a diagram of kicks. The diagram shows the effects of the cue ball coming off a cushion with high, low and center. Those effects have been certified for a hundred years. You will see the same effects shown in Willie Hoppes book from 70 years ago. Next, you can make the object ball curve (where the hell did I say "masse"?)with follow eng. on the cue ball. I demonstrate this on my DVD, Banks That Dont Go, But Do. It was a favorite shot of Eddie Taylor. Also, I never said you can make the object ball curve using draw on the cue ball.

Finally, as I will demonstrate in my next 3 hr. DVD, due out xmas, Banking With The Beard---The Movie, draw, follow and center ball, all affect banks shots differently and significantly and I show you how to use them to your advantage.

the Beard
 
Last edited:
Freddy

Thank you. I misunderstood the diagram and misused the terms. I will redoo the exercise right, right now. I plead ignorance, but remember I'm just a lowly sub-banger. I'll get together with George and see if he can straighten me out.

Dave Nelson
 
where the hell did I say "masse"?) Sorry

Sorry Freddie, I didn't mean for it to sound like a qoute from your book. Just trying to stress a point. There's a trick shot from way back, object ball frozen near the side pocket, with a ball on the foot spot. In the line of the bank. Hitting the bank with top and basically a slight masse' occurs to go around the ball.
 
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