Banned

[mikepage]

To help us understand, Jason, please answer a few questions for us.

As I understand from your numbers below, he's keeping a little under $9 per player per night.

Is he providing the table time for this?

If so, then for how long may the teams use the tables? (i.e., can you show up early to warm up and/or stay late?)

What is the hourly rate he usually gets for these tables?

Are there any other benefits, such as a free drink?

Is he keeping track of standings, statistics, rosters, etc?

Were there any ancillary tournaments with added money?

The bottom line is the $9 might be unreasonable, and it might not be unreasonable.

But for you to label it "prize money" and complain that he's keeping your "prize money" in a public forum seems unreasonable to me without providing more detail.

Well, I used the number 10 Russ so it would be easy math. Not really, we did have 10 teams. Each team has 5 players and we pay $14 each per week for 30 weeks.

So first, 10 x 5 = 50 weekly players x entry $14 = $700 weekly
Second 700 x number weeks playing 30 = $21000
Third, the amount he is paying out... He showed me the payouts $7700

Profit/ripping off of prize money $13,300. Close enough to $14,000 for me.

If he flipped the numbers it wouldn't have been so bad, but 63.3% I believe is too much. Since you are probably billing the Gov at least 63% higher than you could bill a normal company this number might be low to you.

Did you have time to get the popcorn?

 

[Jason Robichaud]

when you play in events, where-ever, just being a player is best. Not inside the business mind of the operators. If you're that way minded, set up your own comp but can you? I dunno, you're probably right. Did you you say it outright to management or were overheard. Thats different. But you've blown your chance to play there. If you're ok with that, so be it. Otherwise. learn from it.

I deal only in facts no fiction. I wouldn't post on a guess or someones word. I put my name on every post I place here. Not a screen name, my name.

I am thinking about opening a room... the problem is pool is slowing and to open a room and earn a living is hard. I don't want to have to take the players prize money to keep the doors open. I also knew I would get banned, but I was trying to help the other 49 members that didn't know that this wasn't the norm. I like to play in bigger events with good players and this location didn't hold those events. I only joined because a friend of mine asked me to play on his team. The ban is no big deal to me I have other rooms to play and my table at home to practice on.

 

[supergreenman]

Well, I used the number 10 Russ so it would be easy math. Not really, we did have 10 teams. Each team has 5 players and we pay $14 each per week for 30 weeks.

So first, 10 x 5 = 50 weekly players x entry $14 = $700 weekly
Second 700 x number weeks playing 30 = $21000
Third, the amount he is paying out... He showed me the payouts $7700

Profit/ripping off of prize money $13,300. Close enough to $14,000 for me.

If he flipped the numbers it wouldn't have been so bad, but 63.3% I believe is too much. Since you are probably billing the Gov at least 63% higher than you could bill a normal company this number might be low to you.

Did you have time to get the popcorn?

Ok so you've done SOME math and you realized that you don't get back everything that was put in in the first place.

Seems to me there are a few things missing from your equation.

Table time - Did you think you were playing for free?
Administration - it costs money run a league, even paper and copying add a significant cost
His Salary - not all league operators like myself do it out of the goodness of our hearts. Although I don't have a salary I can certainly understand other league operators getting paid. It's a thankless job, but you would sure notice if someone isn't doing a good job of it.

HE SHOWED YOU THE PAYOUTS....... this by itself seems to indicate he's not trying to hide anything.

If you think you can run a league better, you can always start your own.

If you aren't willing to work to make a difference, then you should stop your whining.

This is of course my humble but qualified opinion, feel free to disagree

 

[Jason Robichaud]

You get nothing free other than table time. 1 hour before event and until close. Sounds like a good deal, but this is a week day event and no one stays. The event finishes around 9:30-10 pm and everyone leaves. A few people that don't work or start late, maybe 8 out of the 50 and they are gone by 12. If we paid the table time for the tournament/league it would only cost $20 at most per team. That would still leave $500 going into a prize pot. We use 9 tables for 2 hours. That is 18 hours of table time at 11$ an hour.

The fact is, its his league and he can do what ever... I just think is sucks at the amount he is taking. He is making way more than if he just had 50 players there playing and paying for table time. I support every room I play. If they have food I eat, I don't drink, so I have sprite. I still have $50-60 tabs when I go and play. I had $20 tabs here and that was just food and drinks. When I found out the amount he was taking compared to all the other BCA leagues I played. I had to tell the players and had to stop the league. I got banned for telling them, but now they know. They other leagues I played. Charged $12. 2$ to house for table time and open tables until close or some until last team finished, so you can see why I was shocked to find out he is keeping 9 of the 14$.

I have to add... I laugh when people put it cost for paper and time running it. Bar staff make about 8$ hour and 500 sheets of paper cost 2.99$ I think the 50 customers he wouldn't have unless he held a league is good for business. I don't think it takes 1600 hours for his employee to enter the results into the computer, nor do I think he prints over 2 millions pages for stats. I am not saying he shouldn't make money. Just don't take way more than normal. His hourly rate is 10$ hour for table time and the league is making him 24.62$ is the little bit of paper work worth the extra 14.62$ an hour plus the business in his room.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Ok so you've done SOME math and you realized that you don't get back everything that was put in in the first place.

Seems to me there are a few things missing from your equation.

Table time - Did you think you were playing for free?
Administration - it costs money run a league, even paper and copying add a significant cost
His Salary - not all league operators like myself do it out of the goodness of our hearts. Although I don't have a salary I can certainly understand other league operators getting paid. It's a thankless job, but you would sure notice if someone isn't doing a good job of it.

HE SHOWED YOU THE PAYOUTS....... this by itself seems to indicate he's not trying to hide anything.

If you think you can run a league better, you can always start your own.

If you aren't willing to work to make a difference, then you should stop your whining.

This is of course my humble but qualified opinion, feel free to disagree

Yeah, it sounds like this guy got banned from the room for good reason! Seriously, if you're going to make these huge claims, you have to provide all the details. Painting the picture to look like the owner is stealing tens of thousands from his league players is definitely grounds for permenant banishment. With rooms closing all over the country and owners relying heavily on the participation of their regulars, it is very important to protect what you have.

If you have a beef with prize-structure, you can politely ask for an explanation. Most league directors and owners will readily tell you and you'll also find that most room owners do everything they can to make the prizes as attractive as possible.

 

[Fatboy]

Well, I used the number 10 Russ so it would be easy math. Not really, we did have 10 teams. Each team has 5 players and we pay $14 each per week for 30 weeks.

So first, 10 x 5 = 50 weekly players x entry $14 = $700 weekly
Second 700 x number weeks playing 30 = $21000
Third, the amount he is paying out... He showed me the payouts $7700

Profit/ripping off of prize money $13,300. Close enough to $14,000 for me.

If he flipped the numbers it wouldn't have been so bad, but 63.3% I believe is too much. Since you are probably billing the Gov at least 63% higher than you could bill a normal company this number might be low to you.

Did you have time to get the popcorn?

Well Russ? LOL, Russ is my friend, but it aint looking good for him here, just busting your balls buddy, hurry up and bring your family to vegas so I can bust your nuts some more.

ok on a serious note:

when i made my long post I didnt realize the amount of $$ you were talking about, you did the right thing from my understanding of what happened, him bouncing you out so fast suggests he wants to keep it quite about the accounting....dosent look good to me.

last thing i dont know alot about leagues but a 63% rake seems high to me, I awalys figured it was 33%, but i'm no expert, I do know LO work hard and its alot of work, no doubt and they do deserve a income for their time, hell no one works for free. But 63% sounds high or there is a bad structure. A audit would show where the break down is. Perhaps he aint greedy and just runs a poor league modle and has excess expensis, i dunno???. just seems hight to me..

 

[Scott Lee]

Jason...One thing you did NOT do, that I suggested, was to get a petition signed by a majority of the players in this league. If you had, you would have some leverage with the LO...and the opportunity to take those players with you, into a new BCA league, should that be an option. No one really knows if the numbers you present are right or not...but if they were, it would sure seem like most of the league players would be concerned, and would come over to "your side". If you went to the players, and they refused to participate in your 'project' to make things right...then there was probably some problem with your numbers to begin with.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Are you guys kidding me? Let's look at this from the other perspective for a moment, just using the vague figures that were provided.

Now, there is supposedly 15k missing per season? What are there, 3 seasons per year? That's a total of 45k. From that 45k per year, the room argues that it pays for 42 weeks of league play plus the league director. Hmm... Let me get this straight. 45k pays for someone's salary AND the table time FOR A YEAR. I sure hope this league director has another job.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

It seems to be way different in the U.S. We have no league director at this location. The owner of the room holds a BCA league. If this was a guy traveling around running events across Alberta, I think he should make some money. Should they make $40,000 a year. That depends on the hours. I don't think someone running a event that almost runs it self is worth 175$ an hour. Which is what this would work out to if he works 2.5 hours per week organizing. I know he has a computer program that he enters the info in so... I don't think it would be 2.5 hours. He even plays in the event. So it can't be that hard to run.

If you went to the Joss tour and Mike charged $420 entry and paid out 155$ in prize money, would you be saying, oh well, he has to make $40,000 for running the event. I think Mike would wait until the end of the event before saying anything and then run.

 

[catpool9]

Why should the room owner be taking any $ at all for having the league at his pool room, 10 little measly teams shouldn't take no time each week to compute results.

And the guy is getting "Paid" by having the players enter his establishment and spend their money, not only league night but other nights during the week am sure.

The room owner bann Jason to keep things quiet, "out of sight out of mind" hoping everyone will soon forget ! , and they will......

I've run 50 teams a week before and it's not that time consuming!

All you can say about it is , the room owner is a cheat!......


David Harcrow

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

It seems to be way different in the U.S. We have no league director at this location. The owner of the room holds a BCA league. If this was a guy traveling around running events across Alberta, I think he should make some money. Should they make $40,000 a year. That depends on the hours. I don't think someone running a event that almost runs it self is worth 175$ an hour. Which is what this would work out to if he works 2.5 hours per week organizing. I know he has a computer program that he enters the info in so... I don't think it would be 2.5 hours. He even plays in the event. So it can't be that hard to run.

If you went to the Joss tour and Mike charged $420 entry and paid out 155$ in prize money, would you be saying, oh well, he has to make $40,000 for running the event. I think Mike would wait until the end of the event before saying anything and then run.

You cannot compare a league to a tournament. The two are simply different products. Leagues guarantee everyone will play the same number of matches (in your league, that means 14). In tournaments such as The Joss Tour, you are guaranteed two matches. Leagues take months to conclude. Tournaments can be done in only a couple days. If you can't see the difference between the two, I think the conversation should end right here.

 

[Jaden]

I can see this from multiple perspectives.

On one hand. The only league I ever played in was a local in house league at Danny K's in orange, CA. It was run as far as I could tell with the utmost competence. There were payouts, but all I cared about was that it was cheaper for me than paying table time once a week.

On the other hand, if a LO is also the owner of an establishment where the league is run, there should be a set amount of green fees. The purpose for a room owner to have a league is to put bodies in his establishment buying food and drinks on nights that are slow and there wouldn't otherwise be people there. It's not right IMO that he take an exhorbitant amount (60% is exhorbitant) and get the added benefit of having business that he wouldn't have.

Jaden

 

[Russ Chewning]

Well Russ? LOL, Russ is my friend, but it aint looking good for him here, just busting your balls buddy, hurry up and bring your family to vegas so I can bust your nuts some more.

ok on a serious note:

when i made my long post I didnt realize the amount of $$ you were talking about, you did the right thing from my understanding of what happened, him bouncing you out so fast suggests he wants to keep it quite about the accounting....dosent look good to me.

last thing i dont know alot about leagues but a 63% rake seems high to me, I awalys figured it was 33%, but i'm no expert, I do know LO work hard and its alot of work, no doubt and they do deserve a income for their time, hell no one works for free. But 63% sounds high or there is a bad structure. A audit would show where the break down is. Perhaps he aint greedy and just runs a poor league modle and has excess expensis, i dunno???. just seems hight to me..

$7700.00 in prize payouts

+

$6000.00 ($20.00 table time per team, per week)

+

$420.00 he added to the pot for his own league play

= $6880.00 BEFORE he spends one solitary cent on any supplies

Let's not even debate the fact that if he hadn't put up hundreds of thousands of dollars to build/buy the business, you wouldn't be playing there. Is he not entitled to a return on his investment????

For 30 WEEKS of work. Mebbe YOU think you could get by on 2/3 hours worth of work per week, but I'm pretty sure that Scott Lee would argue that pretty heavily, considering he has BEEN THERE, and DONE THAT.

However much you WANT the table time to be given to you "for free" Jason, it's not gonna happen.

I have a question... Once BCAPL gets it's $10.00 from every player for the year.. Does it just GIVE away the privilege of playing in it's league system? If so, I would expect that the BCA national championships, or whatever they are called, give away very little other than trophies.

Most league systems get a cut of the weekly monies.

Hey Jason.. Did you ask about that???



Fatboy... I am sure you as a business man know that there are a lot of hidden costs, that you will never telll the customer about, because 1.It's not their problem, and 2.It's none of their business how you run things, as long as the service/good provided is high quality.

Back to Jason.. And FOR THE RECORD, 10 teams is NOTHING. for the amount of *****ing from people like you, and the stress involved from people complaining about everything under the sun, you couldn't PAY me $7000.00 to run 10 teams. I'd need a lot more teams that that (with more money) to make it worth the time and hassle.

Russ

 

[Russ Chewning]

Why should the room owner be taking any $ at all for having the league at his pool room, 10 little measly teams shouldn't take no time each week to compute results.
David Harcrow

Ummm... Could it be because he spent HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS od dollars, so that you might have a place to sit and complain in with your friends?

Gawd, sometimes I hate the attitude of poolplayers. Here's a tip: If you can't afford to pay $14.00 a week to hang out with your friends for a few hours......


Then just DON'T.

Russ

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Ummm... Could it be because he spent HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS od dollars, so that you might have a place to sit and complain in with your friends?

Gawd, sometimes I hate the attitude of poolplayers. Here's a tip: If you can't afford to pay $14.00 a week to hang out with your friends for a few hours......


Then just DON'T.

Russ

Seriously, such arguments NEVER END. There is always SOMETHING a league player argues for. They take the money they spend over the course of a season and compare it to the prizes AND THEY FORGET they got to play hours of pool inbetween. They forget about trophies and the organization, handicapping, match-scheduling. None of this stuff is rocket science but the more organized it is, the more special it feels when you win.

I wonder when my company softball team rocks all these other corporate yoyos this summer if anyone is going to be shocked when we find out we don't get paid. I mean, the whole concept of actually winning a prize is foreign in other sports. Usually, you just stand there with a big trophy and get your picture taken.

 

[cigardave]

Call me old-fashioned, but I believe that a LO (or a TD) has an obligation to league members (or tournament players) to provide a breakdown of the entry fees vs. the prize pool... so that there are no surprises or hard feelings at the end of the day.

In the example cited, paying back only 37% of what is collected is cause for concern... and should be explained by the LO imo.

 

[mikepage]

Call me old-fashioned, but I believe that a LO (or a TD) has an obligation to league members (or tournament players) to provide a breakdown of the entry fees vs. the prize pool... so that there are no surprises or hard feelings at the end of the day.

In the example cited, paying back only 37% of what is collected is cause for concern... and should be explained by the LO imo.

I agree with the first part. But I don't think the percentage by itself tells a complete picture. In this case, here's what I think the room owner should have done. At the captain's meeting at the beginning of the year, he should have said something like the following:

Each player pays $2 per week for league administration
Each player pays $6 per week for table time, and for that the table is open to come early and practice and/or to stay late and match up with one another.

Anything above that is prize payout. You, the captains, may vote for a total weekly fee right now. The higher the fee above $8, the bigger the payouts.

 

[cuesblues]

Most pool room and bar owners that I know do not like any criticism even when they ask for your opinion. Their general attitude toward pool players isn't what I thought it was, and we are not the ones buying the 7-dollar Jagermiesters all night long, which is what's keeping some of their doors open right now.

If you want to go back in there, I am sure there's a way to get the ban lifted.

 

[Snapshot9]

Something

that should be annually is an 'independent audit' of the league. We had one league operator here that was on 5-7 teams. His teams were always at the top of everything, you know, getting all the money.

Someone complained, and independent audit was called for, he refused to let anyone else see the formulas for the league handicaps, etc.. He was removed as a league operator for this National League. He now runs a few inhouse leagues for a popular room here now.

Something else, many league operators are guys/gals that would not have a job if they were not a league operator.

 

[cigardave]

I agree with the first part. But I don't think the percentage by itself tells a complete picture. In this case, here's what I think the room owner should have done. At the captain's meeting at the beginning of the year, he should have said something like the following:

Each player pays $2 per week for league administration
Each player pays $6 per week for table time, and for that the table is open to come early and practice and/or to stay late and match up with one another.

Anything above that is prize payout. You, the captains, may vote for a total weekly fee right now. The higher the fee above $8, the bigger the payouts.

I like that approach, Mike. Makes good sense!