Bar Table Myths? - What are your thoughts?

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Williebetmore

Member, .25% Club
Silver Member
I would love to hear everyone's input on this subject; here is mine:

I've just completed my first ever bar table league experience (had played once on a bar table before this league started). I competed with a team in the VNEA Master's division in Indy (no handicaps, 9 teams, we finished) - a weaker team than most in the league.

It took some time to learn some of the idiosyncracies of the game, but I ended up doing fairly well. I finished in the league top 5 in winning percentage, our team finished 13th-16th in the state tournament (losing the first match, and plowing through the loser's bracket), and our team won the city tournament. I played the "anchor position" for the last few weeks of the season and during both tournaments (I don't get very nervous in competition - hey, it isn't brain surgery), and I won 15 out of my 16 "last matches" - only loss was a dry break, with my opponent then running out.

Here are some of the things that surprised me. My only bar table knowledge came from the forums, and was not entirely accurate for this league.

MYTH #1 - Eight ball is harder on a bar table.

I find it hard to believe that anyone could propose this (if they do, they need to practice their position skills). The game is incredibly easier on the big pocketed, smaller table. Ball pocketing is not an issue - you should make almost everything you shoot at on a bar table. If you miss more than a shot a week, you need to work on your stroke. The "congestion factor" is myth #2.

MYTH #2 - Small table "congestion" makes things tough.

Actually, I think it makes things much easier - at least for someone with a straight pool orientation. Yes, there are many clusters to deal with, BUT they are so close together that it is virtually always possible to break them (this is definitely NOT the case on the 9-footers).

In addition, you do not have the same requirement for "insurance balls" when you are breaking clusters on the bar table - just smash into them and you will usually leave yourself some sort of shot or safety. This strategy does NOT work in 14.1 on a 9-footer, but it is a viable strategy on the 7-footer. It took me half the season to convince myself to go into a cluster without an insurance ball (but I still prefer having one).

Also, because of the size of the table, there are substantially fewer "trouble balls" in any rack (those balls that are not clustered, but require a heroic shot to make in a distant pocket). On the small table, there are no heroic shots (as far as pocketing is concerned). If there is a pocket for it anywhere, it is easily makeable.

Yes, there is more "traffic", but good position play has always rewarded those that move the cue ball the least. Danny DiLiberto is a champion of "close position", learning to move the cue ball very short distances with precision, and keeping travel to a minimum. On a bar table, his principles make the game pretty easy. If you can't do this, then you will not be very good on a bar table (and your straight pool on the big table will not be that great either).

MYTH #3 - Vicious gamesmanship is the rule for league players.

Not true here. I saw NOTHING but excellent sportsmanship and honesty. No sharking, no bad behavior (despite significant alcohol consumption by many), no rule mongering. I enjoyed every match, and made a lot of friends.

MYTH #4 - Bar table pool isn't "real pool"?????

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Certainly it is a far easier form of pool, with some eccentricities of it's own. The big corner pockets, minute side pockets, and dead rails (BOY CAN YOU SHORTEN THOSE BANKS!!!!!) definitely require some adaptation. But one area where bar table pool shines IS IN THE COMPETITION. Everyone needs to learn to compete (it is very different from practicing), and if competition is in your blood, a league like this is a tremendous experience and can only help your game, even if you are a big table snob like me. My game DEFINITELY improved as a result of the bar table play.
 
larger tables work better for me. not saying this is the case for everyone. as far as the bar pockets are concerned, they may be smaller but they swallow the balls up easier. the larger tables i play on the pockets are deeper and angled different and seem to reject a lot of fast balls where a bar table doesnt. i can see where streight pool would be a help but i personaly seem to be able to run out when i have a bigger spread and have some room for the cue ball to move.
 
Bar table

Well the myth I hear all the time is that if you play on a bar table league it will mess you up for playing on a big table league. My league on Wed. is bar table. My league on Thurs. is 8 foot tables. To tell you the truth I haven't seen it hurt my game at all on the 8 footers. If anything I play better on Thurs. nights. It might be that Wed is just more practice, but I play better on Thurs. now. I find something that isn't a myth is that the bar tables normally don't play as true as 8 footers or 9 footers. I believe one of the many reasons is because every Joe blow is allowed to play, drink, smoke, etc on them. Most pool halls take better care of their tables and most pool halls have the bigger tables. Therefore it would make since that the bar tables don't play as true. To me that isn't a Myth, but the Myth about playing on a small table will hurt your big table game is false if you ask me!
 
Totally different game. Different break. Different position play. You can let the cue loose a little more by going for shots you'd play safe on if you were on the big box. Area position on the barbox is acceptable. Every shot is crucial if you're playing nineball. Miss one or kick "unsafe" and you might sit for quite a while. Kicking is the name of the game. I've seen Gene Cooper offer the last three on the barbox to Pete Horne who had just offered him the call 8 on the Gandy 4 1/2 x9. Totally different game. These slow rolling players will hate the big ball on a piece of junk with dead rails.
 
The Bar Box

Hi Willie,

Hope you are doing well since I saw you down at Chalkies a couple months ago.

I also am just completing my first session of league play on the Boxes, and I must say that it has been a "whole lot of fun for me". Most of my play is on 9 footers except for this league, and the most difficult thing for me is adjusting to the rails and felt speed on the small tables. I'll admit that my position play is not quite up to my pocketing skills, and I certainly need to continue to work on that aspect of the game. I do find it easier to run out on a larger, faster table than on the Box, but that may be due to my lack of position skills as you state in your post.

I do agree that "close position" is more important on the 7 footers as well. There aren't really any "long green" shots either, and that makes it a little easier for a lesser skilled player to actually string together a nice run with a little luck in the "leaves" department.

At any rate, I agree with most of your thoughts and it's always nice to get different perspectives. I will continue to play on the small tables in league at least since the "windy city classic" is an "all box" tournament. Why don't you plan to come up here in January and let's play in some of the events at the "Windy City" in January. They have a lot of mini 8 ball and mini 9 ball events if we get knocked out of the main deals early.

Keep smilin- Bill M.
 
Good post, Don. I'll agree that the big thing in barbox pool is not to miss :D What really separates the players, I think, is their creativity. Everyone can execute (at least sometimes), but some racks are tougher than others, and some solutions are easier than others. When it's the finals, the smarter run can be what gives you the edge.

Straight pool/one pocket/bank players have a lot of extra options shot-wise (shape-wise? carom-wise?) compared to '8/9 only' players, and this can be used to great advantage in barbox 8-ball. Obviously, you already figured that out, Don. Good job, and I'll see you in the finals next year!

-s
 
I dislike leagues and tournaments in bars mainly because of the poor playing conditions: bad balls, bad cloth, bad rails, huge pockets..... I have a bar table with 4" pockets, simonis cloth, and excellent balls and I love it. It is very challenging to play on. Some bar table tournaments have really nice equipment, and those are the only ones I like to play in:)
 
steev said:
Good post, Don. I'll agree that the big thing in barbox pool is not to miss :D What really separates the players, I think, is their creativity. Everyone can execute (at least sometimes), but some racks are tougher than others, and some solutions are easier than others. When it's the finals, the smarter run can be what gives you the edge.

Straight pool/one pocket/bank players have a lot of extra options shot-wise (shape-wise? carom-wise?) compared to '8/9 only' players, and this can be used to great advantage in barbox 8-ball. Obviously, you already figured that out, Don. Good job, and I'll see you in the finals next year!

-s
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Steev,
I know this is your area of expertise; I think your first paragraph really hit the nail on the head. I was very surprised to find myself playing a LOT more conservatively and strategically than most of the top players in the league. They really went for the runouts; whereas I would generally favor engaging in the lengthy safety battles unless there was an obvious runout layout. I was only outmoved a few times all year, the safety battles I lost were generally a lazy or poorly executed safety by me. I think playing competitive straight pool with some champion players has really given me an advantage in the bar table 8-ball safety game.

I'm not sure I'll play next year (need to get permission from the wife); but I definitely enjoyed it this year much more than I expected.

One thing I did not like was that the team results were so dependent on number of balls made. I really think that for players of that caliber, only the wins/losses should be used. Many times I found myself conflicted about leaving a lot of balls on the table while waiting for a runout opportunity.
 
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I was much better on a bar table than a 9 foot. I'm not sure if that was just me or not. I probably played on both tables an equal amount of times. I owned my own poolroom and played every day and spent at least four nights a week in bars for over 40 years. Johnnyt
 
Precision position just isn't possible in some areas on some bar tables. Some tables have that thick, crappy cloth combined with dead rails that makes it impossible to get the cue ball to the other end of the table when it would be uber easy on 860 and responsive rails. Also it makes the cue ball and object balls take funny turns at the last second that can ruin a well-played position shot. Then you have the tables that are also unlevel so that a slow rolled cue ball ends up an inch or more to the right or left of where you sent it. I remember one table I played on where I tried to slow roll the cue ball up to an object ball near the head cushion. I aimed for the middle of the object ball and missed it completely. Our first playoff match, I was playing a very good player and both of us either missed shots or got hooked several times because everything was rolling to one side of the table and you couldn't really predict how much roll you were going to get as it varied from one place to another. Of course, the empty table right next to the one we were playing on played darn near perfect.
I'll grant you that a small table that plays well is much easier than a big table for all the reasons you mentioned. Some of my best games have been played on the smaller tables and I win way more than I lose but those small tables can be very challenging. Even when you figure out the nuances of a bad table and ball set, it can be very difficult to take those into account in play. Sometimes you just have to hit everything hard which can wreak havoc on your position play.
 
bsmutz said:
Precision position just isn't possible in some areas on some bar tables. Some tables have that thick, crappy cloth combined with dead rails that makes it impossible to get the cue ball to the other end of the table when it would be uber easy on 860 and responsive rails. ...Sometimes you just have to hit everything hard which can wreak havoc on your position play.
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Learn to love stun/stop/draw, no slow rollers unless the shot is VERY short, and ALWAYS leave an angle (a hard cut is easier than shape from straight in in many cases). This is just a case of the right stroke/shot for the conditions. So your fancy-pants simonis/big table shots don't work. There are ways to play well on crap, go find them. Hopefully it'll cost ya less than 20 a rack to find a good teacher :D

p.s. I love simonis and big tables so don't think I'm insulting anyone.

-s
 
steev said:
Learn to love stun/stop/draw, no slow rollers unless the shot is VERY short, and ALWAYS leave an angle (a hard cut is easier than shape from straight in in many cases). This is just a case of the right stroke/shot for the conditions. So your fancy-pants simonis/big table shots don't work. There are ways to play well on crap, go find them. Hopefully it'll cost ya less than 20 a rack to find a good teacher :D

p.s. I love simonis and big tables so don't think I'm insulting anyone.

-s
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Steev,
Actually I missed a few "slow-rollers" this year that would CLEARLY have been wiser to strike more forcefully. I left quite a few balls in the jaws of the pocket that did not have enough speed to fall - this almost never happens on my fancy-pants Simonis.

I still play a lot of slow-rollers (it's my style) - I think I'm fortunate that our tables must be fairly nice for bar tables. I suspect I should probably alter my style a bit as you recommend.
 
bar table???

I will have to disagree with you on some points of your discussion mainly the fact that a barbox is easier to play on.... case in point most pros will not play on a barbox on the road because they will get busted by a local no matter what the game many a road player has come through where I grew up and regretted matching up with players from there on a barbox if they moved to a big table the it would swing the other way, other factors to consider on a barbox are the cueball is it the regular cueball or the mudball, also if you can bank on an 8 or a 9' table you wil find that most valley tables play differently than most other tables if it is a diamond then the transition is much easier but I have seen many a good player get humbled on a barbox.
just my .02
 
At least I think that's what you're saying...

Poolhalljunkie said:
I will have to disagree with you on some points of your discussion mainly the fact that a barbox is easier to play on.... case in point most pros will not play on a barbox on the road because they will get busted by a local no matter what the game
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You're suggesting that pool is harder on a bar box, but you are presenting arguments which support the fact that it's easier.

Players with lesser skills have a better chance to win with an easier game or under easier conditions.

Ken
 
Poolhalljunkie said:
I will have to disagree with you on some points of your discussion mainly the fact that a barbox is easier to play on.... case in point most pros will not play on a barbox on the road because they will get busted by a local ...
just my .02
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PJ,
Wouldn't your example just reinforce the fact that the game is easier on the smaller table if a local can beat an established pro on it??

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding in what I mean by "easy". I mean that the game itself is easier to play, demanding less proficiency than on the bigger table. I do NOT mean that big table players will automatically be better on the little table. I do NOT mean that runout percentages will be higher. I just mean that ball pocketing is easier, clusters are actually less of a problem, banking is easier, cue ball movement is easier/shorter.

I agree with you that the bar table is a great equalizer. I feel very confident that I can compete with a pro on the bar table - I feel equally confident that the same pro will barbecue me on the big table.
 
Williebetmore said:
MYTH #2 - Small table "congestion" makes things tough.

Actually, I think it makes things much easier - at least for someone with a straight pool orientation. Yes, there are many clusters to deal with, BUT they are so close together that it is virtually always possible to break them (this is definitely NOT the case on the 9-footers).

In addition, you do not have the same requirement for "insurance balls" when you are breaking clusters on the bar table - just smash into them and you will usually leave yourself some sort of shot or safety. This strategy does NOT work in 14.1 on a 9-footer, but it is a viable strategy on the 7-footer. It took me half the season to convince myself to go into a cluster without an insurance ball (but I still prefer having one).

Also, because of the size of the table, there are substantially fewer "trouble balls" in any rack (those balls that are not clustered, but require a heroic shot to make in a distant pocket). On the small table, there are no heroic shots (as far as pocketing is concerned). If there is a pocket for it anywhere, it is easily makeable.

Yes, there is more "traffic", but good position play has always rewarded those that move the cue ball the least. Danny DiLiberto is a champion of "close position", learning to move the cue ball very short distances with precision, and keeping travel to a minimum. On a bar table, his principles make the game pretty easy. If you can't do this, then you will not be very good on a bar table (and your straight pool on the big table will not be that great either).
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I'm not going to argue that bar table 8-ball is harder than big table, but I do think there are a few relevant points you're missing that make bar table 8ball a little harder than you're representing.

First of all, you can't just smash clusters and assume you'll get position, because they just become different clusters. I realize you play a lot of straight pool, but most 8-ball players don't, and can't open clusters at will in a way that always benefits them. I think insurance balls are just as necessary on the bar box, because congestion before breaking the cluster, can very easily still be congestion after "breaking" the cluster.

Also, you mention Danny D's ideal of playing position short and sweet, as if it were as easily done as said. Playing position to large position zones is always going to be way easier than playing position to small ones, through tighter traffic. A lot of players that are used to 9-ball or big-table pool are going to have trouble hooking themselves in the traffic, bumping balls they didn't mean to and missing position due to the traffic, and missing the small position zones of those balls that only go in one distant pocket, that they wouldn't have as often on the big table. Maybe you never bump a ball you were trying to squeeze past and hook yourself, but I do.

Furthermore, even though the pocketing is easier, this ease is mitigated by the ease of scratching. On the small table, there are a lot of shots that would be easy, but become difficult because you don't have much room to avoid the scratch. Consider the cut into the side pocket, where the CB's tangent takes it toward an adjacent corner. I'm stuck with this shot all the time, and I bend the CB off the tangent on a big table. On a small table, there's a lot more touch involved getting that tangent to bend enough over the course of 3.5 instead of 4.5 feet, especially with accepting pockets. When I play on a small table, it seems like there's a risk of scratch everywhere I look.

Anyway, overall I think you're right, the game is just so much easier when every shot is so much more makeable. After all, the winner is decided by pocketing; position and cluster control just enable pocketing, and defense is only for when you aren't going to be able to pocket them all. But the bar table does have difficulties all its own that do need to be acknowledged.

-Andrew
 
one barbox does not = another barbox

I think it's important to note that not all barboxes were created equal.
Willie, I don't know about VNEA where you are, but here the version of VNEA we have, the tables are maintained on a regular basis so you can pretty much count on them to play similar no matter where you are playing.

Myth #1 + 2
That being said, other than having to play tighter position, the game is easier than the big tables.
On the other hand, I know I'm more likely to run out from the break on a big table.

I play n 2 leagues, one strictly 9 foot tables and then the VNEA league which is strictly barboxes. I don't feel that play on either size table inhibits my play on the other size.

Myth #3 perhaps is a regional thing, you might have it good where you are. I know when playing the 9 foots sportsmanship shines where as VNEA (WAL-MAC) here is cutthroat. I have seen behavior in this league that is extremely low brow, But the compitition level is extremely high so I guess it has it's trade offs.

Myth #4 Barbox pool isn't really pool? Yes it is, but because it's easier you had better not make a mistake or your toast, it's a lot less forgiving.
 
I feel the same as some others that the bar box normally is going to shorten the gap between a pro and a beginner. Overall a pro should still overcome a beginner in a series of games on a bar box. The beginner will likely win more games though then they would on the 9 foot table. On a bar box ANYONE can beat ANYONE.
 
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