Bar table pool vs. big table pool

JB Cases said:
Ok, I had a disagreement in the TAR chat about this. Jeanette Lee was playing Larry Price and the announcers were constantly talking about how Jeanette wasn't a bar table player and if only she had some bar table experience and on and on.

I said that it's all the same. I said it's all about controlling the cueball and nothing else.

I say this as a player who has played bar tables and big tables for 30 years now.

I just don't see the difference at the higher level and I have had this discussion with people like Buddy Hall and David Matlock while driving down the road with both of them. Matlock told me that it's easier to play big tables because balls don't cluster up as much but other than that there is no difference with a normal cue ball. He did say that the game is different on the bar table with a big cue ball.

Buddy said a good player should be able to play his best on either table.

So what do you all think - tell me what the real concrete difference is from bar tables to big tables.
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They must have missed the match (one of three sets) between Jeanette and Justin Bergman playing bar box 10 ball. Justin was giving Jeanette the 9 and the breaks. About one year ago.

She was up 11-1. Out of the 11 games.....she made 3 combos.....2 - 10 balls on the break.....and ran 6 racks. Not bad for someone that is having trouble playing bar table pool. :rolleyes:
 
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In my honest opinion, most bar table players in my area wont gamble on the big table. I know this because they will play me even or with slight weight on bar table, but on big table they opt out.

Now, I know they can play on the big table, but they lose. My bar table game is ok, not my favorite, but I can play on them very well. But when I get on the big track with the same group of players the egde switches to my favor.

I learned to play on 4x8 with bigball, or slightly big ball, and on 9 footers, and have played lots of snooker tables (in the past). I believe that playing on the 9 footers make my shot making ability more accurate, because from what I have seen, a shorter stroke and angle seems to come with bar table play, that has to be changed to make shots on big tables. Which is where the bar table players seem to have their problems.

Now, this is just what I have seen locally. All recently, and I do pay attention, close attention.

I think that bar tables are harder, if your used to playing only 9 footers, but only playing tight shape and learning to play 1 rail shape alot, verses playing 2 and 3 rails shots on big table. I do not think that accurace is lost, just a different strategy, and position.

So, when bar table players get to the big table, they lack the cue ball control to ride the rails accurately and confidently, and they lack the stroke to make long shots under pressure, providing they are not short stops or pros who are used to playing on both tables.

JB Cases said:
So is the consensus then that it's tougher to play on a bar table.

Also, to address the comment about the size of the tables. To my knowledge a "bar" table is one that is 3.5x7 feet. It is the same scale as a 4.5x9 foot or a 4x8. I think that just about all billiard tables are twice as long as they are wide. Which of course brings up the pocket openings and distance as a factor.

For the person who brought snooker into the conversation, snooker tables play completely differently with the cloth, cushion profile and pocket facings being different. So I don't find that this is an apt comparison in this thread but it does have validity in the larger context of billiards in general.

I wanted to add something I forgot before about Buddy. In Rags to Rifleman he is said to have said that on the barbox you don't need to ever play for the side pockets. He said you can play most of your position for the four corners. So I guess in that sense it's easier to play on the barbox.

I guess numerically speaking there will never be an eight foot shot on a 7 foot table so in that sense there will be a lot more "difficult" shots on a 9 footer than on the 7 footer.

I still think though that a good player should be well rounded enough to be able to play great on either table but I can appreciate that some will be better or worse on the table they are used to.
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I all depends on what game you're playing. The most difficult is nine ball on the big table. Next in difficulty is eight ball on the bar table. After that it's eight ball on the big table and finally the easiest is nine ball on the bar table. Sixty years of experience in playing on both tells me this.
 
John...Two differences. You mentioned the first one...smaller table area, so greater potential for clusters. Second, easier to scratch on a barbox, as there is the same amount of total pocket opening, but less rail to catch the CB...which agrees with what you said about CB control! I agree with Buddy that elite players should be able to win on either table.

Edit: LMAO...I posted before I realized this is almost a 3 yr old thread!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

JB Cases said:
Ok, I had a disagreement in the TAR chat about this. Jeanette Lee was playing Larry Price and the announcers were constantly talking about how Jeanette wasn't a bar table player and if only she had some bar table experience and on and on.

I said that it's all the same. I said it's all about controlling the cueball and nothing else.

I say this as a player who has played bar tables and big tables for 30 years now.

I just don't see the difference at the higher level and I have had this discussion with people like Buddy Hall and David Matlock while driving down the road with both of them. Matlock told me that it's easier to play big tables because balls don't cluster up as much but other than that there is no difference with a normal cue ball. He did say that the game is different on the bar table with a big cue ball.

Buddy said a good player should be able to play his best on either table.

So what do you all think - tell me what the real concrete difference is from bar tables to big tables.
Click to expand...
 
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I have 2 friends who debate bar box vs big table cues. One says use the same cue on both, the other who is a amateur cue builder and seems pretty knowledgeable says he can build a cue for each for the same player that will be better suited to play for each size table. Any thoughts out there on this debate, I have no idea? THx
 
I always felt it depends on the game.

8 ball is better on a 7 foot table. You end up with more clusters from the opening break and is a challenge to work the cue ball around all that traffic and get out. on a 9 foot table everything just opens up and its a matter of just picking the path of least resistance using the balls in the middle of the table to transition from one end to the other. Rarely do you really have to open up your stroke on a bar box.

9 or 10 ball on a bar box on the other hand is easier. specially if your dropping a ball or 2 on the break. Nothing in your way and you don't have to ever really get your stroke out. on a 9 foot table playing 9 or 10 ball even if you play good position you'll have to open up your stroke to get the ball around the table when trying to get from one end to the other
 
Big_Rod said:
Big tables are tougher

I just joined the forum and found this thread. I have been playing on bar tables for 15yrs both in league play and money play. I am probably the toughest player in my area on a box. I recently joined a league played on Diamond 9ft tables and I am struggling. The skid on the fast cloth is killing me! I have to relearn where to hit the ball on most spin cuts and banks. I am finding the transition very tough.

IMO, big table play is much harder. The table is much more open and there are a lot fewer trouble balls, but the patterns are very different. I have lost matches to players that I would give weight to on a box. It is very frustrating, especially in the APA league, where my handicaps are 7 and 9 in 8 ball and 9 ball.
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I have been playing on 9' and when i tried a couple tourney at 7' boxes....i was struggling. It is like you said, the patterns are different, the positioning is different and the cueball power control is different. By far, i have realized that the angles are actually wider than the 9' table....but some people i talked to would said that it is narrowers...i dony exactly know what they meant by that either. But the struggling is real. Especially with cloths like carpet and a heavy cueball...it is a different kind of animal
 
vincett said:
I have been playing on 9' and when i tried a couple tourney at 7' boxes....i was struggling. It is like you said, the patterns are different, the positioning is different and the cueball power control is different. By far, i have realized that the angles are actually wider than the 9' table....but some people i talked to would said that it is narrowers...i dony exactly know what they meant by that either. But the struggling is real. Especially with cloths like carpet and a heavy cueball...it is a different kind of animal
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The angles aren't different. The table are the same proportion. But the area of the table is much different. 40x80 vs 50x100 inches. In terms of difficulty I find 8 ball is more difficult on the 7ft vs 9ft and 9 ball is more difficult on the 9ft vs 7ft. Also the rails are different depending on the manufacturer. So that comes in to play. And yea that heavy cue ball changes everything. lol
 
fuggles said:
The angles aren't different. The table are the same proportion. But the area of the table is much different. 40x80 vs 50x100 inches. In terms of difficulty I find 8 ball is more difficult on the 7ft vs 9ft and 9 ball is more difficult on the 9ft vs 7ft. Also the rails are different depending on the manufacturer. So that comes in to play. And yea that heavy cue ball changes everything. lol
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Well, at first i thought so too. But each diamond in lengths are also different between 9' to 7'.
 
vincett said:
Well, at first i thought so too. But each diamond in lengths are also different between 9' to 7'.
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Even though the distance diamond to diamond differs between big and small tables both tables are a 2:1 rectangle or 2 squares put together so the angles are the same.
 
fastone371 said:
Even though the distance diamond to diamond differs between big and small tables both tables are a 2:1 rectangle or 2 squares put together so the angles are the same.
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The perspectives when you get down and behind your shot lines are different. It is the same as depth perceptions and illusions. The angle are narrower the longer the distances and actually is wider the shorter the distances. That is where the confusions are at. The positove cut shot would appear as a 30 degree on a 9 footer travelling 2 diamonds....but at 2 diamonds and similar stances on a 7 footers and the angle are actually not 30 degree but about 35 or so. That is because the length of the diamonds which we were acustomized to in order to reconfirming cut angle as part of the system would be messed up, together with throw and other elements....the 7 footers is a game of it own.

At first i thought 7 footer is actually a zmaller and zoomed out version of 9 footer but it isnt that simple. I take that it is if you are used to both tables.
 
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It is a different game, I agree, but I may be missing your point I believe.

The laws of Geometry and physics don’t change from table to table. Increased Coefficient of friction with the typically dirty equipment on a bar table makes for a drastic change in cut angles with any English applied to the cue ball, but that holds true on big tables as well. Maybe this accounts for difference you have encountered?
 
vincett said:
The perspectives when you get down and behind your shot lines are different. It is the same as depth perceptions and illusions. The angle are narrower the longer the distances and actually is wider the shorter the distances. That is where the confusions are at. The positove cut shot would appear as a 30 degree on a 9 footer travelling 2 diamonds....but at 2 diamonds and similar stances on a 7 footers and the angle are actually not 30 degree but about 35 or so. That is because the length of the diamonds which we were acustomized to in order to reconfirming cut angle as part of the system would be messed up, together with throw and other elements....the 7 footers is a game of it own.

At first i thought 7 footer is actually a zmaller and zoomed out version of 9 footer but it isnt that simple. I take that it is if you are used to both tables.
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a shot from the 1,1 diamond is 45 degrees on both tables. Also a shot from the 2,1 diamond is 22.5 degrees on both tables. You could argue that on a 9ft you won't see the pocket on some shot where you would on a 7ft. But the angles are always the same. It is simple geometry.
 
vincett said:
The perspectives when you get down and behind your shot lines are different. It is the same as depth perceptions and illusions. The angle are narrower the longer the distances and actually is wider the shorter the distances. That is where the confusions are at. The positove cut shot would appear as a 30 degree on a 9 footer travelling 2 diamonds....but at 2 diamonds and similar stances on a 7 footers and the angle are actually not 30 degree but about 35 or so. That is because the length of the diamonds which we were acustomized to in order to reconfirming cut angle as part of the system would be messed up, together with throw and other elements....the 7 footers is a game of it own.

At first i thought 7 footer is actually a zmaller and zoomed out version of 9 footer but it isnt that simple. I take that it is if you are used to both tables.
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I am extremely used to both 7' and 9' tables. I have a 9' table at home (a 7' table too but I rarely use it) but all tournaments and leagues are played on 7' tables up here. At any rate unless I am missing something the angles should be the same, as I mentioned earlier a pool table is 2 squares put end to end. As an example if the object ball is 1 diamond from the short rail and 1 diamond from the long rail and the cue cue ball is 3 diamonds from the short rail and 1 diamond from the long rail the angle should be the same on either size table because even though the distance between the diamonds is greater on the 9' table the balls move an equal distance in both the X and Y axis.
 
Thank you all for your inputs. I am struggling even more now. So what is the elephant in the room that makes 7 footers so much different ?
 
vincett said:
Thank you all for your inputs. I am struggling even more now. So what is the elephant in the room that makes 7 footers so much different ?
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The biggest difference is that a 7ft table has 64% less area than a 9ft table. So the balls tend to cluster more on a 7ft. Shot making should be easier on the 7ft. Especially if the shooter is used to a 9ft. The easiness tends to were of fast though. lol
 
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