Battle of Los Angeles - Results

[enzo]

i cant read through all this right now, but how in the world would you know this unless you had access to all their books....

"No profit has been made other than the satisfaction of providing the event worldwide through the internet and proving that they have the capability to do it."

listen, agreed, tar is awesome. ok, back to the subject, who should have the right to call themselves "sponsors" of an event. these companies have associated their names with names of professional players for potential profit?? if all the players say, yeah, great, let hard times associate my name with their website and poolhall. ok, but i dont see this as having happened.

it's funny because most of us complain about the money, then when somebody raises a legitimate concern about the money the very players object. no wonder we are stuck!

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

i cant read through all this right now, but how in the world would you know this unless you had access to all their books....

"No profit has been made other than the satisfaction of providing the event worldwide through the internet and proving that they have the capability to do it."

listen, agreed, tar is awesome. ok, back to the subject, who should have the right to call themselves "sponsors" of an event. these companies have associated their names with names of professional players for potential profit?? if all the players say, yeah, great, let hard times associate my name with their website and poolhall. ok, but i dont see this as having happened.

it's funny because most of us complain about the money, then when somebody raises a legitimate concern about the money the very players object. no wonder we are stuck!

You are correct, I do not have access to TAR's books. (even though you didn't quote me, I'll still speak up) That being said, I know that they were not paid by the promoter or the pool room and they did not record the event for future sales. I can only assume they were not paid by someone.

Again, this was a qualifier for a large tournament, not a winner takes all, or x amount of spots paid tournament. The winner was supposed to win entry into the million dollar shoot out that Allen Hopkins is promoting, that's all. It ended up being a winner take all event because players that had previously promised to play in the event ended up backing out. Maybe some of your frustration should be geared towards the players that "gave their word" and then backed out. The 8 players in the event weren't angry about the turn of events so why are you so upset about it? Max can take $4000 and put it towards his entry into the $5200 entry fee for the million dollar shoot out, or he can put it in his pocket & spend it as he chooses.

 

[enzo]

You could've pulled it off if you had a measly $0.00 but an exorbitant amount of patience, effort, and time.

It would seem that you're confusing the qualifier with a regular pro tournament. People like Allen Hopkins and Barry Berhman come up with tournaments that are geared towards paying out a prize fund. The general basis of this tournament was just like an IPT or US Open qualifier.

People do not play in these events to win money from that particular event, they play in it in order to win a spot into a large, high paying tournament for a fraction of the entry fee cost. There is a huge difference between a qualifier and a tournament, which is the point that I believe is being missed here.

Had there been a field full of 10 and the winner won a spot on Allen Hopkins million dollar shoot out, would you still have a problem with it? The only reason this didn't happen was because players backed out.

Product sponsorship is very common place in the pool world. The sponsors for this event were either asked or volunteered to sponsor this event with the perception that this was a qualifier. They were approached or they approached the situation with this in mind.

I haven't spoken to anyone close to the situation since Sunday but the last I heard, there was a rumor that Tiger was going to provide the players with one of their new break cues, extreme focus was going to send their drink for the players and spectators to enjoy, and TAR was going to CA on their own money to cover the event for the fans of high caliber pool that couldn't be there for various different reasons from location to work to handicap to whatever reason one might have for not being able to attend the event live.

Tiger, Extreme Focus, and TAR all put something up for the players and fans of this qualifier and over all great exhibition of pool. It cost these sponsors out of pocket, it did not cost me, the fan and spectator anything. For the players that didn't necessarily care to go out to the east coast and play in Allen's event, the fact that it turned into a winner take all event was simply a bonus.

While I did not partake in chat, I did watch the chat session that went on and there were over 200 people watching the match from all over the world. Both the players and sponsors benefited from this exposure. People that had never heard of these sponsors now know of their products and people that had only ever heard of these players were blessed with the opportunity to actually see these them play.

As another poster had mentioned, I urge you to go check out the TAR website. The last time that I looked around, they were not a "sponsored" site like AZ is. There are no banners with sponsors ads. If they're lucky, they can get an event sponsor like they did with their Vegas trip where someone like OB Cues steps in and helps them defray the travel, lodging, action room rental, and internet hook up expense. I believe Diamond Billiards will step in for certain events and provide the pool table. They still have to cover the nut for cameras, computers, microphones, a booth. Oh yeah, they also have to eat at some point. I forgot to mention that even with the cost of airline tickets rising, fuel prices are out of this world and the economy at an all time low, Justin from TAR felt strongly enough about this event to volunteer to cover it on his own dime.

I hope that my very long winded post can somehow help you better understand not only the difference between a regular tournament and a qualifier but also how the sponsorship worked for this tournament, the players, and the sponsors themselves.

Last but not least, I was able to gather from the TAR commentary & chat room conversations that Corey Harper was the brainchild of this idea. He is employed full time and married with a life outside of pool. He spent months chasing down players for their entry fee and looking for alternates to fill in for some of the players that had originally given their word that they would play.

According to people like Jay Helfert that live in that area, the pool room, Hard Times was more packed than he could ever remember. There were local & far away spectators online in the chat room begging for this event to become an annual event. There are a lot of great players on the West coast that don't have very many local events to show their wares. The possibilities of this becoming a monies added, annual event are very real.

You have to crawl before you can walk. These 8 players and product sponsors crawled to this event. It was such a success that the players on the West coast will more than likely have a monies added event next yr for a new "Best of the West" title holder.

In my opinion, this qualifier was wildly successful for all involved and I sincerely hope to be able to watch the 2nd annual best of the west event on TAR next summer.

Peace

ok, i got a minute....

the qualifier aspect is confusing, it was then it wasn't? so, i dont know what to say? are you saying other events dont follow this same pattern of kinda screwing the players though?? or you think they get their fair due??

i did check out tar, thank you. saw some ads. but i saw the svb interview there a while back, and it was awesome, agreed!

I AM NOT TAR BASHING, BELIEVE ME. this is a different issue. it has to do with people making money off the names of players and the players getting nothing. whether or not it did or did not happen in this event is actually unimportant too, because i assure you it does happen.

one thing you may not be considering, and i really hope you do, this is becoming a more and more popular business model. im NOT saying this is what tar has in mind, but many people have started great, informative blogs and pages for free and turned them into multi million dollar companies from the money they get from hits and the ads associated with their page. guy X goes though the trouble to put up a GREAT page about techniques to become a pro photographer for free, gets tons of hits after a while, then come the photo product ads and he gets a cut of every purchase. so, my point, down the road tar COULD profit huge from these ads they are running and it would be due in part to their great effort (good for them, no doubt) but also due to the names of these players. and what would the players be left?? nothing is the answer.

your point about hard times being packed is perhaps my whole point! they don't have to contribute to the players for this business that the names of the players has obviously brought to their establishment??? pool players are VERY non litigious. if player's did have lawyers, i really believe things would be different. i dont like lawyers either, but the fact is since the money isnt there the players are underrepresented and get screwed every day like this and nobody realizes it. hard times MAY have put up the table time for this event??? believe me when i say we need to start expecting a bit more from room owners that get packed houses based on the player's names.

anyway, at the very least it's all worth considering. ive already spent enough time on this than my schedule will allow but thanks for the discussion

edit: UrackmIcrackm, i did quote you if they do in fact get money it would be from the links. click on the "baby's pro shop," usually, if you end up buying a cue from there but were directed from tar, they will get a cut because that navigation info shows up somewhere or another. they could have those ads there for free, i dont know? or that could be their own stuff? but i notice they have a store too, again... ernesto vs eberle could lead someone to their store who purchases. and how could yo possibly know they wont sell it in the future unless you're an insider? im just pointing out the popular model im sure you all know of. and there are other ways to make profits in the future too as i alluded to. in any case, wish us all luck

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

edit: UrackmIcrackm, i did quote you if they do in fact get money it would be from the links.

You quoted yobagua.

There are quite a few pool room owners on this forum that will tell you that unless you have a kitchen and can provide edible food along with alcohol or something else that attracts more customers, you're going to struggle and quite possibly go out of business.

Hard Times does not have a kitchen or alcohol license. With this being the first event like this, I don't believe anyone knew or expected the turn out to be as good as it was. Pool comes to a halt during the summer months as people tend to spend their time outdoors enjoying the weather.

During an interview with Mr. Harper before the finals, Mr. Harper mentioned that Hard Times had expressed interest in having another event with added money. Again, you have to crawl before you can walk.

You asked about the status of the tournament being a qualifier and then it not being a qualifier. It was a 10 player invitational qualifier for Allen Hopkins million dollar shoot out. Over the last couple of months, according to posts from Mr. Harper in the tournament section, there were numerous changes as players backed out and then alternates backed out. The entry fee for the event was $500. At ten players, that's $5000. The entry fee into the million dollar shootout is $5000. Hard Times wasn't skimming a green fee off the entries and the tournament director volunteered to direct the event and TAR had people volunteering to sit in the booth and commentate. Every penny was going to the paid spot in the million dollar shoot out that Allen Hopkins is having. By the time Sat morning rolled around, Corey lost two more players. He had 8 players and $4000. That was the point where it was decided that since the monies wouldn't cover the entry into Allen's tournament, they would change it to a winner take all tournament.

This "disservice" to the players might very well lead to an annual, money added event. With the number of tournament promoters out there not paying players that play in their "money added" events, I'm surprised that you've chosen a qualifier to use as your soapbox. This is what I don't understand and the reason I continue to post about it.

I assure you that I do not work for or with any of the parties involved in this event. I'm not an "insider", I'm a person that knows a couple of "insiders" and utilizes what I feel is my common sense to fill in the blanks.

Have a good evening and thank you for "debating" this in a civil, non-name calling manner.

 

[enzo]

You quoted yobagua.

There are quite a few pool room owners on this forum that will tell you that unless you have a kitchen and can provide edible food along with alcohol or something else that attracts more customers, you're going to struggle and quite possibly go out of business.

Hard Times does not have a kitchen or alcohol license. With this being the first event like this, I don't believe anyone knew or expected the turn out to be as good as it was. Pool comes to a halt during the summer months as people tend to spend their time outdoors enjoying the weather.

During an interview with Mr. Harper before the finals, Mr. Harper mentioned that Hard Times had expressed interest in having another event with added money. Again, you have to crawl before you can walk.

You asked about the status of the tournament being a qualifier and then it not being a qualifier. It was a 10 player invitational qualifier for Allen Hopkins million dollar shoot out. Over the last couple of months, according to posts from Mr. Harper in the tournament section, there were numerous changes as players backed out and then alternates backed out. The entry fee for the event was $500. At ten players, that's $5000. The entry fee into the million dollar shootout is $5000. Hard Times wasn't skimming a green fee off the entries and the tournament director volunteered to direct the event and TAR had people volunteering to sit in the booth and commentate. Every penny was going to the paid spot in the million dollar shoot out that Allen Hopkins is having. By the time Sat morning rolled around, Corey lost two more players. He had 8 players and $4000. That was the point where it was decided that since the monies wouldn't cover the entry into Allen's tournament, they would change it to a winner take all tournament.

This "disservice" to the players might very well lead to an annual, money added event. With the number of tournament promoters out there not paying players that play in their "money added" events, I'm surprised that you've chosen a qualifier to use as your soapbox. This is what I don't understand and the reason I continue to post about it.

I assure you that I do not work for or with any of the parties involved in this event. I'm not an "insider", I'm a person that knows a couple of "insiders" and utilizes what I feel is my common sense to fill in the blanks.

Have a good evening and thank you for "debating" this in a civil, non-name calling manner.

this discussion is tough because of the "qualifier" aspect of the tournament and other things as well. and i will readily admit maybe this was the wrong thread and the wrong tournament to pick on.... but, my points still stand and ill try to concisely make them again independent of this event.

- pool players get screwed all the time because they have a name and people sell products using their name, yet the player receives no compensation for this.

-"sponsors" should be just that. listen, have a couple guys go to a golf tournament and stream the video of tiger woods and ernie els to people over the internet when there is no tv coverage on say a Thursday. do you think they will be called "sponsors" of this event just because they put up their own money to get there and buy the equipment? sponsors are the guys adding millions of dollars in to the pot as they know very well they are making money off these guys. not only would these guys not be sponsors, they would not even be allowed to video feed this golf event because they would potentially be making tons of money off tiger's name. pool is really the same thing on a smaller scale. the fact is, if there was any money in pool, there would be lawyers too, and this stuff would end immediately. but it persists. i hate to use tar, because every one loves them, and rightfully so!! but what if tar turned into a huge corporation one day, what do you think would have gotten them there. if the players are signing tar releases before these matches i guess its fine, but i think at least you see my point, whether you agree or not is another matter

i dont call names unless i get REALLY mad and even then i use long word bad names so only a few know what im saying lol, just kidding of course.

oh yes, thanks, i did not quote you, i see what you meant now.

anyway, as i said, i think you see my points and i see yours. thank you for the discussion.

 

[JCIN]

this discussion is tough because of the "qualifier" aspect of the tournament and other things as well. and i will readily admit maybe this was the wrong thread and the wrong tournament to pick on.... but, my points still stand and ill try to concisely make them again independent of this event.

- pool players get screwed all the time because they have a name and people sell products using their name, yet the player receives no compensation for this.

-"sponsors" should be just that. listen, have a couple guys go to a golf tournament and stream the video of tiger woods and ernie els to people over the internet when there is no tv coverage on say a Thursday. do you think they will be called "sponsors" of this event just because they put up their own money to get there and buy the equipment? sponsors are the guys adding millions of dollars in to the pot as they know very well they are making money off these guys. not only would these guys not be sponsors, they would not even be allowed to video feed this golf event because they would potentially be making tons of money off tiger's name. pool is really the same thing on a smaller scale. the fact is, if there was any money in pool, there would be lawyers too, and this stuff would end immediately. but it persists. i hate to use tar, because every one loves them, and rightfully so!! but what if tar turned into a huge corporation one day, what do you think would have gotten them there. if the players are signing tar releases before these matches i guess its fine, but i think at least you see my point, whether you agree or not is another matter

i dont call names unless i get REALLY mad and even then i use long word bad names so only a few know what im saying lol, just kidding of course.

oh yes, thanks, i did not quote you, i see what you meant now.

anyway, as i said, i think you see my points and i see yours. thank you for the discussion.

Here is the thing. If a match happens and no sees it did it it even happen?

If it costs $1300 in expenses to cover an event (and it does) would not the person who pays that fee be called a sponsor?

As long as we are talking about what we do for the players. Here is an example for you. Corey and Shane make $12.50 each per unit off of the Action Challenge 1 dvd. I am pretty sure that there are very few musicians, actors or sports stars that make $12.50 per unit for a dvd. Corey has said that we have already paid him more than Accu-Stats has in 5 or 6 years and Shane has made over $1300 just in DVD revenue in under one year. We have paid out over $3800 to 5 players this year with more scheduled as the year goes on. They make this money while they sleep. They will continue to make this money while they sleep for as long as we sell the dvd's.

We have been at this for right at a year. Many people in the industry have told us we pay the players TOO MUCH. We feel that we are in a partnership with the players and in order for us to succeed they must succeed. If it was in our power to just throw $1000's at events whenever we feel like it we would. But that is not reality right now.

I really don't think you have any idea how hard it is to put together an event. You say things like "it should" and "they should"....well I can tell you from experience that it doesn't matter how things "should" be , when you want to actually produce something you deal with things the way they really are. Right now it is absolutely brutal in the pool world. Terrible. So anytime an event does come off it means some people worked their ass off for very little or no money (or even losing $1300) to make it happen.

We make nothing off of the banners on our site. Those are for friends and people who have donated a cue or something in the past. The Baby's Pro Shop ad will be on our site forever for free because we know what Mike Gulayassy went through to keep his word to us. We will never ask him for a dime, he is a man of honor and if we can send some people his way it is our pleasure. We have had people offer small sums (I am talking 2 digits) to advertise but we have turned them down. We did this for several reasons. When we sign on to promote something we take it very serious and work hard at it. We will not do that for next to nothing. The other thing is that we feel that people we associate with reflect on us as a brand and a company. We are very proud of the companies we associate with such as Diamond and BCA Pool Leagues, that is not by accident. I agree with you that things "should be" different but let me assure you they are not. There is virtually NO hard cash sponsorships in pool. Period. It is a barter economy.

The smart players understand that the more people see them the better off they are. We have had players ask for ridiculous fees to play and we just tell them we cant afford them. People better realize that it is not evil for someone to make a profit. If there is no money in something there will be no talent or passion for the long haul either. Luckily for us most players get this and realize that by working with us we can all move forward. I consider the guys who work with us friends and representatives of TAR. We don't take advantage of our friends, we try to help them.

Without sounding flip, what are you doing to improve things?If things "should be" a certain way , it requires people to make them that way. You said you could get a similar field by adding a couple $1000. I challenge you to do it. If you put together an event with the talent level of the Battle of LA and do it in CONUS I will fly to it, cover it free and add $500 to the pot.

 

[JAM]

...Without sounding flip, what are you doing to improve things?If things "should be" a certain way , it requires people to make them that way. You said you could get a similar field by adding a couple $1000. I challenge you to do it. If you put together an event with the talent level of the Battle of LA and do it in CONUS I will fly to it, cover it free and add $500 to the pot.

That was an extremely well-written post, with a lot of wisdom contained in the words.

I think every single person who has experienced a TAR broadcast, whether in person or in the LIVE CHAT, thinks TAR is the best thing to happen to pool in a very long time. I don't know how TAR produces the quality that they do with so little sponsorship available in this pool world. This latest event in California was so great for me. I really enjoyed watching it.

There was never a challenge match broadcast for all to see LIVE before TAR that I can remember. This brand-new innovative concept caught on like wildfire. The IPT is doing it now. Also, TAR was the first to do the podcasts with interviews on their website. Soon thereafter, others decided this was a pretty cool thing to do.

In this digital age, the Internet is where it's at. When I was young, my parents would read the newspaper every single morning, and in the evenings, they'd be sweating the 6 o'clock news. Today, not many people read the newspaper anymore. Rather, they go to the Internet to catch up on the latest.

This is why TAR is onto something. They are the pioneers, and I hope with all my being that the Internet will help pool advance to the next frontier. We need TAR. TV (ESPN) hasn't been very helpful in the pool world, at least here in the States.

So, in case anybody hasn't said it lately, thanks, TAR, for doing what you do, many times uncompensated. I hope you get rewarded in the years to come. I know this is more about a labor of love than it is for money. Good things happen to good people, and you guys are GOOD, in more ways than one! :smile:

JAM

 

[yobagua]

$12.50 per unit!!!!!!????????? Do you know I get squat for Indiana Jones, Star Wars,Spiderman, X Man, SWAT, True Crime, etc. Video Games? Theyll sell a couple million worldwide. Man I would be a millionaire 100 times over if you guys were running things. Yet when we go on strike people get pissed at us.
But people want to talk big when they dont even know what it takes to put on a tournament. Im tired of people looking for high crimes in low places. What does it do for the game when you criticize people like TAR. Does it do something for your ego? Obviously cause you do nothing else but bring attention to yourself. It doesnt help what benefits the players and the fans. TAR is doing really good right now. I dont think we have any thing to criticize them about unless we can actually do some activity to improve them. And that is to support them in providing them with info, tools, access, and purchasing of their PPV and products.

 

[BigDogatLarge]

While it is unfortunate that the two players backed out, there was still a tournament run by and for the people that are about pool. I, in my own small way am doing the same thing. My qualifier is in a week and I have nine players and need seven more to make my field. Will I succeed in getting the other seven? It remains to be seen. I may have to hold the same type of format as Corey did. The point is, we are all trying to make pool better for all players. I say keep up the good work.
Rack 'em

Dwight

 

[CrownCityCorey]

$12.50 per unit!!!!!!????????? Do you know I get squat for Indiana Jones, Star Wars,Spiderman, X Man, SWAT, True Crime, etc. Video Games? Theyll sell a couple million worldwide. Man I would be a millionaire 100 times over if you guys were running things. Yet when we go on strike people get pissed at us.
But people want to talk big when they dont even know what it takes to put on a tournament. Im tired of people looking for high crimes in low places. What does it do for the game when you criticize people like TAR. Does it do something for your ego? Obviously cause you do nothing else but bring attention to yourself. It doesnt help what benefits the players and the fans. TAR is doing really good right now. I dont think we have any thing to criticize them about unless we can actually do some activity to improve them. And that is to support them in providing them with info, tools, access, and purchasing of their PPV and products.

Billiards lack of development to a world-wide recognized and profitable sport:

IMO, has much to do with "crabs-in-a-barrel" theory.

Many in pool, also like being a "big fish in a small pond."

Yes, so cliche, but so true.

Support the active and if you don't

OMG! I love that!!!

Edit: I have to admit though, that the devil's advocates have proven to be useful in event planning.