BCA 8-ball rules question

[cuetechasaurus]

In a league match tonight, my opponent broke, then ran all the balls down to his last ball, and partially hooked himself behind one of my balls. He couldn't see his ball enough to shoot it straight in, but he could see about half of his ball, and there was a possible carom off one of my balls. It wasn't an easy carom, he would have to hit the shot with force to make it.

He didn't call a shot, or call safe. He got down and shot it, and hit it pretty hard. He made the carom, and he started walking to the side of the table the cue ball was traveling to, acting like he was going to shoot again. The cue ball came to a stop frozen behind one of my balls, leaving him hooked. As soon as the ball stopped, he paused for a second, and went and sat down.

I'm not sure on the rule if neither a safe or a shot is called, and a ball is pocketed. He left me frozen to my ball with no shot, and the 8 was hanging near a hole, so a safety was difficult.

I asked him what his intention was, and he said he was playing safe. This made no sense to me, since the guy is a decent player, and he hit the ball very hard, scattering the balls. I asked him if he called safe, and he said he did, but I didn't hear or see him say anything. His back was turned to me, so if he said it he must have whispered it.

Could I have made him shoot again? This brings up another question, what if it seemed like there was no possible shot, and he said nothing, and his ball goes 4 or 5 rails around the table and goes in. Could I still have made him shoot again?

 

[GoTulane]

A lot of assumptions that could have been corrected- IMHO

Well, it seems like there are a lot of assumptions being made, and therefore it would be difficult to truly know what was happening and what the shooter was trying, in order to make a call.

The first mistake you made was not asking the opposing player what he was doing with the shot, before he took it. That way, he would have told you his intentions (safe, which pocket, etc), and the next call would have been made that much easier for yourself. On really tough shoots that could have many factors that can come into question, I always ask my opponent his intentions before he shoots, so that there are no arguments after the shot.

For me, I will always tell my opponent what I am doing on a difficult shot, and what the consequences are, so that nothing comes into question. In the end it is a game, and fair play is important to me.

Learn your lesson, and next time make sure that your opponent and yourself are always on the same page, and therefore limit any questions after a shot.

I feel most of my opponents are fair and good sports, but there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification on a difficult shot in a tough position.

In the end, your opponent did not call a pocket, so it can be assumed to be a safety shot - wasn't calling anything - and the shot was not a high percentage shot. Therefore, no matter what his body language was saying to you, he did not call the shot, and therefore it is your turn.

Just some thoughts, since I have been there and done that too.

Michael

 

[danquixote]

In a league match tonight, my opponent broke, then ran all the balls down to his last ball, and partially hooked himself behind one of my balls. He couldn't see his ball enough to shoot it straight in, but he could see about half of his ball, and there was a possible carom off one of my balls. It wasn't an easy carom, he would have to hit the shot with force to make it.

He didn't call a shot, or call safe. He got down and shot it, and hit it pretty hard. He made the carom, and he started walking to the side of the table the cue ball was traveling to, acting like he was going to shoot again. The cue ball came to a stop frozen behind one of my balls, leaving him hooked. As soon as the ball stopped, he paused for a second, and went and sat down.

I'm not sure on the rule if neither a safe or a shot is called, and a ball is pocketed. He left me frozen to my ball with no shot, and the 8 was hanging near a hole, so a safety was difficult.

I asked him what his intention was, and he said he was playing safe. This made no sense to me, since the guy is a decent player, and he hit the ball very hard, scattering the balls. I asked him if he called safe, and he said he did, but I didn't hear or see him say anything. His back was turned to me, so if he said it he must have whispered it.

Could I have made him shoot again? This brings up another question, what if it seemed like there was no possible shot, and he said nothing, and his ball goes 4 or 5 rails around the table and goes in. Could I still have made him shoot again?

Seems to me that this is not a rule question, as a player is required to call the ball and pocket. What this is going to boil down to is ...did he really call safe, and who if anyone verified the call to you. The burden of communicating intent falls upon the shooter, but you as an opposing player also have the responsibility and the right to knowing his intent prior to shooting......Will the LO say announcing a safe to his teammate was good enough, or will he side with you and declare your opponent must insure you are aware of his intent prior to shooting. Perhaps an answer may be found on his teams scoresheet, if it was recorded as a miss and then changed to reflect a safety.....your arguement will have plenty of weight.....Dan

 

[Mike in MN]

Far too often in league play I see players who are taken advantage of due to inattention to their own game. I can't count how many times I've seen players fail to notice a foul because they weren't paying attention while their opponent was shooting. Same goes for your case. Whether or not you were paying attention, I can't say for sure. But one thing is certain: Never rely on the honor system. For every guy that will tell you the truth, there are five who won't. Remember, it's pool, and pool players are dirty, no-good liars and cheaters

 

[cuetechasaurus]

In the end, your opponent did not call a pocket, so it can be assumed to be a safety shot - wasn't calling anything - and the shot was not a high percentage shot. Therefore, no matter what his body language was saying to you, he did not call the shot, and therefore it is your turn.

Just some thoughts, since I have been there and done that too.

Michael

The circumstances showed that there was no safe. He was down to his last ball, all of my balls were wide open. The carom was the only possible shot. He hit the shot hard, scattering several balls on the table. He acted as if he was getting ready to shoot again. The cue ball traveled three or four rails around the table, and came to rest frozen behind one of my balls. When that happened, he paused for a second, and then went and sat down.

 

[GADawg]

I think BCAPL Rules state something to the effect that obvious shots do not have to be called but banks, kicks and combinations are never considered obvious and must be called. I would think a carom would fall under this same rule as it is not obvious.

If that is the case and he did not call the carom, then the ball made does not count and it is your shot. If he had had an open shot on the 8 then it still would not be his shot.

I agree with the others that you should have asked his intentions before the shot to be clear. Then there would be no doubt.

Also, if he was playing safe, having his team mates hear the call is of no consequence. Either the opponent or a referee must hear the call.

Forgot your last question. If he makes no call of ball and pocket and a ball banks 4 or 5 rails and goes into a pocket, then, to me, it would not count as a legally pocketed ball and it would be your shot. On the other hand, it the ball was hanging or very near a pocket and he completely missed the all but the cue went round the table and then pocketed the ball, that one should count, I think. But in any case, how he might leave the opponent is of no consequence in determining the legality of the shot.

The best solution to this never ending conundrum is the have a rule that every shot must be called, either ball and pocket, or safe.

 

[satman]

First off

In a league match tonight, my opponent broke, then ran all the balls down to his last ball, and partially hooked himself behind one of my balls. He couldn't see his ball enough to shoot it straight in, but he could see about half of his ball, and there was a possible carom off one of my balls. It wasn't an easy carom, he would have to hit the shot with force to make it.

He didn't call a shot, or call safe. He got down and shot it, and hit it pretty hard. He made the carom, and he started walking to the side of the table the cue ball was traveling to, acting like he was going to shoot again. The cue ball came to a stop frozen behind one of my balls, leaving him hooked. As soon as the ball stopped, he paused for a second, and went and sat down.

?

If you're playing BCA rules, he can't play a carom off one of your balls to make his. That's a foul. You had ball in hand. If you're playing any standard league rules, including APA or VNEA, it's a foul too.

 

[dr9ball]

If you're playing BCA rules, he can't play a carom off one of your balls to make his. That's a foul. You had ball in hand. If you're playing any standard league rules, including APA or VNEA, it's a foul too.

I believe the player can make a carom off of the opponents balls if it is the object ball that caroms not the cue ball. For example, a player shoots his 7 ball into his opponent's 15 ball making the 7 in the corner. I see nothing in the rules that prevent this type of carom.

 

[ronhudson]

A carom is a carom.


oooooh, I know. How about if we get everyone to use a coaster or something else to mark the pocket on each shot....

 

[Big_H515]

If you're playing BCA rules, he can't play a carom off one of your balls to make his. That's a foul. You had ball in hand. If you're playing any standard league rules, including APA or VNEA, it's a foul too.

playing a carom of your opponents ball is not a foul. If your ball is struck first whatever happens after the fact doesn't matter so long as the object ball falls into the called pocket.

 

[boblzer0]

this is the correct answer. if you don't call a carom, bank, or combo in bca it's a non called shot and it would be your shot regardless. you should've jumped up out of your seat as soon as he shot it. he knew what was going on i'm sure.

I think BCAPL Rules state something to the effect that obvious shots do not have to be called but banks, kicks and combinations are never considered obvious and must be called. I would think a carom would fall under this same rule as it is not obvious.

If that is the case and he did not call the carom, then the ball made does not count and it is your shot. If he had had an open shot on the 8 then it still would not be his shot.

I agree with the others that you should have asked his intentions before the shot to be clear. Then there would be no doubt.

Also, if he was playing safe, having his team mates hear the call is of no consequence. Either the opponent or a referee must hear the call.

Forgot your last question. If he makes no call of ball and pocket and a ball banks 4 or 5 rails and goes into a pocket, then, to me, it would not count as a legally pocketed ball and it would be your shot. On the other hand, it the ball was hanging or very near a pocket and he completely missed the all but the cue went round the table and then pocketed the ball, that one should count, I think. But in any case, how he might leave the opponent is of no consequence in determining the legality of the shot.

The best solution to this never ending conundrum is the have a rule that every shot must be called, either ball and pocket, or safe.

 

[Richm]

BCA is call pocket only. as long as you hit your ball first and call a pocket you are ok. you do not have to call caroms banks just ball and pocket. obvious shots do not have to be called.
The shot you are describing would not be obvious so if he did not call ball and pocket it is your shot

 

[satman]

Yea, you're right

playing a carom of your opponents ball is not a foul. If your ball is struck first whatever happens after the fact doesn't matter so long as the object ball falls into the called pocket.

I mis-read the post. That's what happens when you're doing 2 things at once.

 

[Big Perm]

The circumstances showed that there was no safe. He was down to his last ball, all of my balls were wide open. The carom was the only possible shot. He hit the shot hard, scattering several balls on the table. He acted as if he was getting ready to shoot again. The cue ball traveled three or four rails around the table, and came to rest frozen behind one of my balls. When that happened, he paused for a second, and then went and sat down.

As far as I know, if the shot isn't obvious, he should have to call the pocket.....otherwise, he should have announced a safe....he may not have broken the rules, but it seems he might be stretching the spirit of them....based on what you said, it appears that if he had a shot, he was going to continue, which insinuates that he was, in fact, trying to make that shot....

Going forward, sounds like he's someone you'd want question beforehand in a similar situation...

I sincerely disagree with the notion that you have to watch and catch people making fouls......it's a game for gentlemen and real women.....you should never have to "catch" someone in a foul.....they should be the first to point it out....it's a game of honor, or at least that's how I see it....

 

[cuetechasaurus]

This is strange, other people told me that since he did not call safe and pocketed a ball, I could have made him shoot again. Is this covered in the rule book?

 

[ridewiththewind]

2.8 Safety Play

Prior to any shot except the break, you may declare a safety. On a safety, your inning ends after the shot regardless of whether you pocket any ball. You must declare the safety to your opponent before the shot, and they must acknowledge your intentions. If you do not declare a safety or it is not acknowledged, and you pocket an obvious ball, your inning continues and you must shoot again. A safety must meet the requirements of a legal shot or it is a foul.

IMHO...the carom shot/the shot actually taken was definitely NOT an obvious shot. This is why I make my intentions clear, whether I have to or not...avoids a lot of arguments that way.

Lisa

 

[Maniac]

This is strange, other people told me that since he did not call safe and pocketed a ball, I could have made him shoot again.

IMO, and the way I read it in the rules, the "other people" are wrong. Only obvious shots need to be called. The shot you describe is FAR from obvious. He may of just been hitting his ball as to not give up ball-in-hand. Since no pocket was called on an unobvious shot, the shot does not count. It was your shot. It doesn't matter whether a safety was called. Safties are shot all the time without a player calling them.

The sad thing is, if he hadn't of hooked himself, I'm sure there would have been a disagreement anyways as to whose shot it was.

The best way to handle an opponent shooting any shot that is not obvious to you is to ask what his/her intentions are before the player is into his stance.

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

2.8 Safety Play

Prior to any shot except the break, you may declare a safety. On a safety, your inning ends after the shot regardless of whether you pocket any ball. You must declare the safety to your opponent before the shot, and they must acknowledge your intentions. If you do not declare a safety or it is not acknowledged, and you pocket an obvious ball, your inning continues and you must shoot again. A safety must meet the requirements of a legal shot or it is a foul.

IMHO...the carom shot/the shot actually taken was definitely NOT an obvious shot. This is why I make my intentions clear, whether I have to or not...avoids a lot of arguments that way.

Lisa

The only real reasons a safety needs to be called is if 1.) You are going to make one of your own balls and give up the table, and 2.) if there is a chance of someone accidentally pocketing an obvious ball during the execution of a safety (as is mentioned in the quoted post/rule).

Many safeties are not called simply because if a ball and pocket are not called, the table is going to be relinquished to the other player anyway.

Maniac

 

[ssminn]

New rule?

Perhaps a new rule is required. If a player fails to call a ball & pocket or to call “Safety”, and a ball from his group is pocketed, the opponent has the right to take the next shot or give it back to the original shooter. “Obvious shot” rule is not changed.

 

[GADawg]

Perhaps a new rule is required. If a player fails to call a ball & pocket or to call “Safety”, and a ball from his group is pocketed, the opponent has the right to take the next shot or give it back to the original shooter. “Obvious shot” rule is not changed.

OR, just take away the "obvious shots not called" option and just call every shot. Easy and no question.