BCA League Payouts (and operations) - Is this normal???

[fastone371]

If I was your friend I would print this out with enough copies for each person in this league to make sure everyone sees how the money is being distributed. At that time everyone can decide if they want to join another of this particular LOs leagues again. if everyone just sticks their head in the sand nothing will change and this LO will just keep padding his pockets with everyone elses money. I would definitely run a league if I only got to keep a fraction of what he is keeping.

 

[JC]

especially if the payouts within the team are prorated.


i have a feeling Mark Griffin will be commenting soon....

The team captain get's 4 dollars and each of the other players get one free play at the bubble gum machine.

JC

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I don't see the national office's cut represented in the pie chart. I have to assume there are also no tournaments run during or at the end of the season where the LO is adding money, or money paid to top player, most run-outs, most improved, top female, etc. I also assume there are no trophies, awards, other expenses...

I look at it a little differently than some, I guess. I pay $10/week to have fun and a night out. My team is usually in contention and if we come in first or second we get more back than we paid in. No one is getting rich in my league, neither the players nor the LO. The way I look at it, the BCAPL and most of the other leagues provide one main value added - their national tournament.

If you are in it to make money from the local league, you're probably better off finding a non-sanctioned in-house league where the room owner is not taking anything. And even then if he's not adding money there's not much to be made.

I get the frustration I suppose, it's just not where I'm at with league play. And admittedly my league is well run and is more equitable in its payouts. But in any event, there is always the alternative of not playing in a league you feel is not paying out fairly.

 

[cardiac kid]

In every BCAPL league I've ever played in, the National office gets $15 per player as a sanctioning fee. That's it! Our local league in Rochester is slightly over twenty five years old. Through most of those years, the sanction fee was required for EACH session. Never heard of the league paying more than that amount. Now, the $15 sanction fee covers EVERY session from August 1st to July 31 (new National dates). Even sessions played in a different area. As I also play in Vegas, the $15 covers those league as well,. Consider it a bargain.

From my personal time in the APA, the payouts posted appear to be more in line with that league then a BCAPL league. The team I play on finished first in each of the last three sessions. Got to share $100 prize money each session! Lets see. Paid in 16 weeks at $7 per week times five players equals $560 times three sessions equals $1680. Now multiply that times the number of teams in the league. Look you get the picture.

Perhaps the league operator in question thought they were running an APA league and structured payouts accordingly. Just a thought.

Lyn

 

[smenzel]

We must all be missing something because those payout numbers just seem wrong.

My understanding is that anyone can start a BCA league; that there isn't any reserved locations for existing leagues. If you're that disgruntled with the current league management, why not just start your own league?

 

[jojopiff]

It's NOT normal, I'm the Vice President for a BCA league in Colorado Springs, CO. For now, the League Operators get $1.75 per player per night. On our Wednesday night non-handicapped league the payouts were:

7 total teams x 28 weeks (24 matches with bye) = $8400 in for $10/person/night (5 players per team playing each player once) for $50 per team per match
LO got $1470.00.
$8400-$1470=$6930

1st - $1801.80 - 26%
2nd - $1386.00 - 20%
3rd - $1178.10 - 17%
4th - $900.90 - 13%
5th - $693.00 - 10%
6th - $554.40 - 8%
7th - $415.80 - 6%

The League Operator got more money than the second place team, I don't think this is right much less the amount your LO is taking.

 

[RunOut Apps]

Pie Chart

This gives all pool leagues a black eye. Mark is an advocate of the player, and this case should be considered the exception and not the rule. However, I think it would be wise for all, if each of the National leagues to post suggested player fee splits, which would eliminate the con artists LOs who take more than they should

We have multiple licensees around the country using our app. All of them are reporting between 40-60% total player payouts. They are saving time and money which allows them the opportunity to give back to the players.
Here's a a pie chart too, Illustrating what a standard league payout looks like. http://riversidetap.net/why-tap/

 

[trob]

lorider & trob:
I have no idea of your past experiences but I assure you that your assertions that the BCAPL national office doesn't care it 100% false. It is true that the national office does not mandate a set structure or payouts and the League Operators can structure the league as they see fit. However, the assertion that the national office doesn't care about unethical conduct is completely false. It sounds to me that you had a very bad experience with a local league and that has tainted your view of the entire national organization. As always, you are welcome to call me any time at 702-719-7665. Thanks.

I don't have a tainted view.. I love bca. you have good operators and bad operators. This is a bad one so find another league. It sounds to me like he got into a league with out knowing the payout structure. Now he knows.. knows he doesn't like it ..so don't play in it anymore. By the look of it most won't and the league will die on it's own. I don't think the bca will find it unethical so there for I don't think they will do a thing about it.

 

[trob]

We must all be missing something because those payout numbers just seem wrong.

My understanding is that anyone can start a BCA league; that there isn't any reserved locations for existing leagues. If you're that disgruntled with the current league management, why not just start your own league?

Exactly ..it's not apa or Tap. You don't pay for the rights to start a franchise. you can start a bca league any day in any bar you choose as long as everyone has payed there bca fees.

 

[jojopiff]

Exactly ..it's not apa or Tap. You don't pay for the rights to start a franchise. you can start a bca league any day in any bar you choose as long as everyone has payed there bca fees.

From my findings, this isn't exactly correct. Where we are there is 2 different BCA leagues, and the other league has a Thursday Night league out of Bar X, we can't have a team play out of Bar X on Thursday night for our league, the BCA won't allow it.

 

[oneballeddie]

If these are payouts per person per team then .... It would still be pretty sweet deal for LO.

 

[lorider]

That doesn't sound like something Mark would say, nor would it make much sense for him to say it.

Can you quote this by chance?

i have 2 problems fullfilling your request.

1. i dont know how to pull up a quote from another thread and post it in this one.

2. i went back through all my posts and it seems it does not go back as far as the one where i replied to his exact quote i mentioned. believe me.. i am not one to put words in another persons mouth. the above words were posted in a reply to me from mr. griffin concerning how bcapl lo's are allowed to operate with out oversight from the national office.

i did how ever find a few quotes from mr griffin stating that all leagues are ran however each lo sees fit.

thread titled... can't stand apa 9 ball. read post 27

'' ''... bcapl question.. read post 8

'' ''... bcapl league info..read post 4

 

[lorider]

lorider & trob:
I have no idea of your past experiences but I assure you that your assertions that the BCAPL national office doesn't care it 100% false. It is true that the national office does not mandate a set structure or payouts and the League Operators can structure the league as they see fit. However, the assertion that the national office doesn't care about unethical conduct is completely false. It sounds to me that you had a very bad experience with a local league and that has tainted your view of the entire national organization. As always, you are welcome to call me any time at 702-719-7665. Thanks.

i would like to apologize for the mis understanding. i did not have a bad experience during my time in bcapl...it was not my team that was screwed over. i was just stating how the majority around here fell about the incident.

i have stated on here many times that no one should blame an entire national organization for the actions of a few individuals. how ever ... positive or negative opinions could and should be based on how the home office addresses the issues caused by said individuals.

i have not agreed with every decision mr. griffin and mr. stock have made concerning how they handled certain issues that have come up with bcapl but i do have the ut most respect for both of them and have never questioned their integrity. how they handled the issue concerning last years nationals did puzzle me though.

 

[jburkm002]

We had a league operator that basically wasn't paying players. I mean nothing. Apparently had issues with his business and robbed Peter to pay Paul scenerio. I can tell you that the league did nothing. Well they did replace him. However if we wanted our thousands of dollars owed to us. I guess someone would have had to sue him. So basically he still has everyone's money and is running another league. There needs to be a way to protect the players money.

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[hang-the-9]

It's NOT normal, I'm the Vice President for a BCA league in Colorado Springs, CO. For now, the League Operators get $1.75 per player per night. On our Wednesday night non-handicapped league the payouts were:

7 total teams x 28 weeks (24 matches with bye) = $8400 in for $10/person/night (5 players per team playing each player once) for $50 per team per match
LO got $1470.00.
$8400-$1470=$6930

1st - $1801.80 - 26%
2nd - $1386.00 - 20%
3rd - $1178.10 - 17%
4th - $900.90 - 13%
5th - $693.00 - 10%
6th - $554.40 - 8%
7th - $415.80 - 6%

The League Operator got more money than the second place team, I don't think this is right much less the amount your LO is taking.

How many hours a week does it take to fill in the paperwork, do the results, enter the scores per player for handicaps, arrange matches, etc...? I did a quick 4 hours a week, which is probably on the low side by quite a bit and for $1,400 that is about $10 an hour. If it's closer to 8 hours, which is probably is, the LO is earning $5 an hour to run the league. Seems more than fair to me.

 

[jojopiff]

How many hours a week does it take to fill in the paperwork, do the results, enter the scores per player for handicaps, arrange matches, etc...? I did a quick 4 hours a week, which is probably on the low side by quite a bit and for $1,400 that is about $10 an hour. If it's closer to 8 hours, which is probably is, the LO is earning $5 an hour to run the league. Seems more than fair to me.

The way it's currently being done, the per hour rate is fair. But it can be streamlined to make it a 1-2 hour a week job. Not to bore you with specifics, it's being done as if current technology doesn't exist. I work from home & self-employed & I'm going to do for free so as to give 100% back to players. Our league is non-handicapped & is the only non-handicapped league in town yet the best players don't play in the league, why? Our league is non profit so there are hurdles that come with that too.

 

[Paul Schofield]

There are no prizes. What you get back at the end of a session is a security deposit. Your security deposit builds from week 1 and grows every week until the league is done. It is there so that every player finishes the league, even though they are out of contention and have lost interest.

So let me get this straight: For $6 a week you get to participate in a regular organized weekly event with your friends that takes 2-3 hours. You play pool for 2-3 hours every week. You are sanctioned by a national organization that permits you to participate in a spectacular Las Vegas production. Trophies, plaques, medals, and pins are awarded to players for outstanding performances at the end of a session. You are provided with a meal at a league banquet a week or two after the league is over.

You have spent $72, hung out with your friends and played pool on and off for 30 hours or so, had someone else do all the legwork for the function, were provided with awards for performances, given a meal at an organized banquet,.....and in addition to all of this, you want some money. You need to stop counting everyone elses money and decide if you got ample value for your $72. This is embarrassing.

 

[cardiac kid]

There are no prizes. What you get back at the end of a session is a security deposit. Your security deposit builds from week 1 and grows every week until the league is done. It is there so that every player finishes the league, even though they are out of contention and have lost interest.

So let me get this straight: For $6 a week you get to participate in a regular organized weekly event with your friends that takes 2-3 hours. You play pool for 2-3 hours every week. You are sanctioned by a national organization that permits you to participate in a spectacular Las Vegas production. Trophies, plaques, medals, and pins are awarded to players for outstanding performances at the end of a session. You are provided with a meal at a league banquet a week or two after the league is over.

You have spent $72, hung out with your friends and played pool on and off for 30 hours or so, had someone else do all the legwork for the function, were provided with awards for performances, given a meal at an organized banquet,.....and in addition to all of this, you want some money. You need to stop counting everyone elses money and decide if you got ample value for your $72. This is embarrassing.

Paul,

On this point I believe we disagree. There is another aspect to the OP's point you seem to have missed. Yes, this is about seeing your friends for a few hours. Yes, this is about playing some pool in an organized group. Sometimes sanctioned by a National body. What you seemed to have missed is the OP considered the "theft" of players money by the league operator as operating expenses.

If I came to your room to play in a tournament you advertised as $100 entry fee and it will pay one quarter of the field, I'd expect you to do just that. If after the event was over, the players discovered you only paid back $10 per player and kept $90 for operating expenses wouldn't you be extremely unhappy as a player? Did I have fun? Always do at your events. Did I see old friends and make new ones? Yes, I did. Was I satisfied with my trip? Absolutely not!!!!!

One of the basic formulas for BCAPL leagues is there is no purchased, protected territory APA and TAP have areas where an individuals can invest their money and buy the rights to own a sanctioned league. Because of this disparity, APA and TAP owners have to recoup their investments. Sometimes quickly. Sometimes at a slower pace. This particular league operator seems to think they run one of those other sanctioned leagues and is, in my opinion, raping the players for the operators benefit. Can not see it any other way. BCAPL and ACS operating software is free to the league operators. Takes a computer and an internet connection.

In this situation, my opinion is based solely on the stated facts from the OP. My local BCAPL league pays back 100 percent of the players weekly money. At the beginning of the league season (usually in October), we pay the league operators $10 per player per league night to operate the leagues. This is referred to as the league fee. Each player is also required to pay the once a year $15 sanction fee to the BCAPL. We co-sanction our leagues with ACS so another $10 is charged. All the fees charged to the hosting tavern or pool room are paid back to the players. The league payouts were posted on the weekly statistics page nearly a month before the end of the current session. This I believe is the correct way to operate a pool league. The premise is fair and balanced (love that phrase). The players get a financial return in balance to the finishing position of their team. Individuals are recognized for their outstanding efforts. The operators get a financial return for their efforts in line with the time necessary to operate the league.

JMHO.

Lyn

 

[trob]

We've had 2 bca leagues same night same bar lol they have no say

 

[jburkm002]

Not sure about all leagues but some league operators have to pick up and drop off paperwork. Pay for paper, ink and anything else. They take calls from league players with disputes. Sure there may be more. It's more then some think. What fair to get paid. I have no idea. Play a tournament some time and see how much they take. Nothing is for free. I would say it would be easy for league operator s to show payouts depending on how many teams. This could be done at the beginning of each session and players can decide if they want to play or not. No one is getting rich playing leagues.

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