i think what you're missing, is that they have 18 teams of 5 (lets round up @ 100).
flights from OAK to LAS @ $200
hotel @ $25/night
$300/player
.
BCA League Payouts (and operations) - Is this normal???
- Thread starter shotmaker45
- Start date
i think what you're missing, is that they have 18 teams of 5 (lets round up @ 100).
flights from OAK to LAS @ $200
hotel @ $25/night
$300/player
.
(This is off topic.) I have read your post many times and it is the comment above that stands out.
Promoters need to provide functions that deserve efforts by players that are fueled by passion for the sport. A drinking league promoted by a tavern and a vendor is very different than players league that focuses on the sport. A players league continually looks for ways to improve the playing experience.
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I noticed in the pie chart where all the funds go, how much would the facility receive?
Mark I agree with what you said here, however I have two small issues still.
1. The allegation that a member of that BCA league was kicked out after asking about the pay outs?
2. This could all be avoided by having by-laws stating that every league must have full disclosure in writing of league revenues.
This will be my last post, as I am sure we all have better ways to occupy our time. Nevertheless, a few things need to be clarified.
"Investigation" was conducted based on the limited information that was made available to league members over the past 9 months. And, keep in mind, the last league member who brought up the same concerns was kicked out of the league by the league operator.
Please understand, I took no joy in writing that post.
Of course, as the saying goes, "There are three sides to every story".
However, the problem in this particular case is a lack of transparency.
There simply was/is no financial information available, league guidelines, bylaws, etc. that would explain how/where the money collected will actually be spent. Again, this information is noticeably absent on the local league web site (www.sjvpool.com) even though the BCA provides detailed instructions and templates for doing so.
This lack of transparency is best illustrated by what information we do have available – the approximate dollar amount collected along with the approximate dollar amount paid out.
Here's more math for those of you who like numbers.
Now we are getting somewhere...
So, based on the math above, there is $20,220 remaining, which will be divided between the "League Operator" and "Vegas Expenses".
Would it be too much trouble to request a League Financial Statement (covering the past 4 sessions) for this local league? (please don't hesitate to post it in this thread)
From the BCA League Operator's Manual:
Also, would it be too much trouble to have something in writing that explains exactly how teams in this league may "earn a free trip to the BCAPL National Championships" (total points? highest average? random lottery?) ???
Edited to add: I would also like to note that I did provide the BCA with contact information for member(s) of this league who wished to detail their experiences/concerns/questions/problems. So far, the BCA has not contacted them.
TL;DR / Summary: Transparency is not just a sign of good faith, it is also good business practice. Following the [signed and agreed upon] guidelines in the BCA League Operator's Manual is a good way to ensure issues such as this one do not arise and league players are kept happy, or at least pacified.
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This will be my last post, as I am sure we all have better ways to occupy our time. Nevertheless, a few things need to be clarified.
"Investigation" was conducted based on the limited information that was made available to league members over the past 9 months. And, keep in mind, the last league member who brought up the same concerns was kicked out of the league by the league operator.
Please understand, I took no joy in writing that post.
Of course, as the saying goes, "There are three sides to every story".
However, the problem in this particular case is a lack of transparency.
There simply was/is no financial information available, league guidelines, bylaws, etc. that would explain how/where the money collected will actually be spent. Again, this information is noticeably absent on the local league web site (www.sjvpool.com) even though the BCA provides detailed instructions and templates for doing so.
This lack of transparency is best illustrated by what information we do have available – the approximate dollar amount collected along with the approximate dollar amount paid out.
Here's more math for those of you who like numbers.
Now we are getting somewhere...
So, based on the math above, there is $20,220 remaining, which will be divided between the "League Operator" and "Vegas Expenses".
Would it be too much trouble to request a League Financial Statement (covering the past 4 sessions) for this local league? (please don't hesitate to post it in this thread)
From the BCA League Operator's Manual:
Also, would it be too much trouble to have something in writing that explains exactly how teams in this league may "earn a free trip to the BCAPL National Championships" (total points? highest average? random lottery?) ???
Edited to add: I would also like to note that I did provide the BCA with contact information for member(s) of this league who wished to detail their experiences/concerns/questions/problems. So far, the BCA has not contacted them.
TL;DR / Summary: Transparency is not just a sign of good faith, it is also good business practice. Following the [signed and agreed upon] guidelines in the BCA League Operator's Manual is a good way to ensure issues such as this one do not arise and league players are kept happy, or at least pacified.
This sounds like it's not asking to much.
"Also, would it be too much trouble to have something in writing that explains exactly how teams in this league may "earn a free trip to the BCAPL National Championships" (total points? highest average? random lottery?) ???"
I had not intended to reply any further to this thread after my previous post. However, I have received quite a few messages asking for an update to how the season finished out for the San Joaquin BCA Pool League, operated by Robert Britt.
Before anyone accuses me of spreading "half truths and innuendos", please understand that the following information was gathered from speaking with real and actual members of this league – something that the parent BCA organization has, to this date, not done (even when asked to).
The 2013-2014 season concluded with a "playoff tournament" to determine which 2 teams would receive money towards "BCA Nationals" in Las Vegas.
This "playoff tournament" was conducted primarily over Saturday, May 31 and Sunday, June 1, with players given less than a week's advance notice (forcing some to reschedule work/family obligations in order to play).
Teams were "seeded" in this tournament by points. The teams with higher total points would need to play and win fewer matches to advance.
In other words, those teams that were unfavorably "seeded" would have to play (and win) their matches from 8am - 10pm on both that Saturday and Sunday to win the "playoff tournament", while teams that had been more favorably "seeded" would play fewer matches and start later in the day (around 6pm).
Practice time for the beginning matches was at 7am. However, many of the bars used for this "playoff tournament" were not yet open at this time.
To add to the confusion, the teams had to go back and forth between different bars within a 25 mile radius, depending on who won/lost over the course of each day.
The net result: 2 teams, and several other members, will not be returning for the 2014-2015 season (which, by the way, already started on June 5th). And, at least one other league member has been kicked out of the league for "asking too many questions".
Additionally, there still was no league financial statement and/or by-laws made available, so that league members might be able to see (in writing) where their money was being spent and how the league was actually being run.
So... Here are the numbers:
To this date, the BCA has NOT contacted any of the league members who wished to discuss this matter.
Looking at the numbers provided near the beginning of this post, of $23,220 collected, the league operator kept the "vast majority" of the money, $18,263, for himself.
Please see the attached infographic (far below) for further clarity, as I feel it still needed.
TL;DR / Summary: The San Joaquin BCA Pool League is poorly organized with no transparency. League operator Robert Britt keeps roughly $5 of every $6 collected. The parent BCA League organization chooses to allow this behavior (which violates the the signed and agreed upon guidelines in the BCA League Operator's Manual) and ignore league members who wish to voice their complaints. Unfortunately there are no other alternative BCA/APA/TAP/VNEA leagues in the immediate area.
Before anyone accuses me of spreading "half truths and innuendos", please understand that the following information was gathered from speaking with real and actual members of this league – something that the parent BCA organization has, to this date, not done (even when asked to).
The 2013-2014 season concluded with a "playoff tournament" to determine which 2 teams would receive money towards "BCA Nationals" in Las Vegas.
This "playoff tournament" was conducted primarily over Saturday, May 31 and Sunday, June 1, with players given less than a week's advance notice (forcing some to reschedule work/family obligations in order to play).
Teams were "seeded" in this tournament by points. The teams with higher total points would need to play and win fewer matches to advance.
In other words, those teams that were unfavorably "seeded" would have to play (and win) their matches from 8am - 10pm on both that Saturday and Sunday to win the "playoff tournament", while teams that had been more favorably "seeded" would play fewer matches and start later in the day (around 6pm).
Practice time for the beginning matches was at 7am. However, many of the bars used for this "playoff tournament" were not yet open at this time.
To add to the confusion, the teams had to go back and forth between different bars within a 25 mile radius, depending on who won/lost over the course of each day.
The net result: 2 teams, and several other members, will not be returning for the 2014-2015 season (which, by the way, already started on June 5th). And, at least one other league member has been kicked out of the league for "asking too many questions".
Additionally, there still was no league financial statement and/or by-laws made available, so that league members might be able to see (in writing) where their money was being spent and how the league was actually being run.
So... Here are the numbers:
Which brings me to the following response from the BCA
The BCA was provided with contact information for member(s) of this league who wished to detail their concerns about the poor management of the San Joaquin BCA Pool League by league operator Robert Britt.
To this date, the BCA has NOT contacted any of the league members who wished to discuss this matter.
This statement above is grossly inaccurate.
Looking at the numbers provided near the beginning of this post, of $23,220 collected, the league operator kept the "vast majority" of the money, $18,263, for himself.
Only $1,957 is being used towards "BCA Nationals" in Las Vegas. Is that what the BCA considers an "appropriate amount"..???
Please see the attached infographic (far below) for further clarity, as I feel it still needed.
TL;DR / Summary: The San Joaquin BCA Pool League is poorly organized with no transparency. League operator Robert Britt keeps roughly $5 of every $6 collected. The parent BCA League organization chooses to allow this behavior (which violates the the signed and agreed upon guidelines in the BCA League Operator's Manual) and ignore league members who wish to voice their complaints. Unfortunately there are no other alternative BCA/APA/TAP/VNEA leagues in the immediate area.
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let me get this straight.
on 5-5 you start a thread questioning the lo's payout and whether or not he is sending teams to vegas.
on 5-15 csi ozzy posts they investigated and it appears the lo is using an appropiate amount of revenue for trip to vegas.
today you post that ya'll were given approximatly a weeks notice that a vegas qualifier was being held. to top it off ya'll were required to travel from venue to venue to hold this play off.
i may be wrong but it sounds to me like he was not intending to hold a vegas qualifier until he was contacted by the national office. why else would he wait till the last minute to notify people and also not even have it set up at one location?
as far as the app. 10% payout for vegas and app. 13% payout for end of session finishers go.
well...... although all of ya'll may not like it....i know i would'nt... but there is really not much to be said if the national office does not require a certain % to be paid out.
on 5-5 you start a thread questioning the lo's payout and whether or not he is sending teams to vegas.
on 5-15 csi ozzy posts they investigated and it appears the lo is using an appropiate amount of revenue for trip to vegas.
today you post that ya'll were given approximatly a weeks notice that a vegas qualifier was being held. to top it off ya'll were required to travel from venue to venue to hold this play off.
i may be wrong but it sounds to me like he was not intending to hold a vegas qualifier until he was contacted by the national office. why else would he wait till the last minute to notify people and also not even have it set up at one location?
as far as the app. 10% payout for vegas and app. 13% payout for end of session finishers go.
well...... although all of ya'll may not like it....i know i would'nt... but there is really not much to be said if the national office does not require a certain % to be paid out.
Does the BCAPL offer a method for the removal of a LO if the players in the area want it to happen? I would hope so because the BCAPL is my favorite of the leagues taht have been around for awhile and I would hate to see you guys start up a different league in the area over this.....
The BCA league I play has a $12 green fee per person. Ten of that goes into the pot for team payouts, the other $2 goes to the league operator for keeping stats and running the league. We play 5 man teams and this year I think we had 10 teams, playing for 32 weeks. I can't remember but I think first place payed out around $4,200 to the team. There were also awards for most break and runs ($50), continuous games without a loss ($50), and several more that I can't remember. I want to say even the last place guys got around $600 (every team gets something at the end of the season).
As for the rules, we play by BCA rules period. The rules are in the BCA rule book and are not open to interpretation or change. Start time is 8PM. If you have someone running late, they got till 8:30 to get there or the team can be forced to play with 4 people if the team that has all 5 players wishes to force them to do so. WE pay our own cost to attend the tourney in Vegas, the league operator pays nothing.
As for the rules, we play by BCA rules period. The rules are in the BCA rule book and are not open to interpretation or change. Start time is 8PM. If you have someone running late, they got till 8:30 to get there or the team can be forced to play with 4 people if the team that has all 5 players wishes to force them to do so. WE pay our own cost to attend the tourney in Vegas, the league operator pays nothing.
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The league operator sounds like a crook as those numbers do not add up regardless of what the "investigation" says.
I play in the Modesto league 30 minutes from Stockton...Our league operator collects a $50 sponsor fee from each bar or pool room...The LO only keeps that money for their pay for running the league..10 teams x $50 is $500 for the session...So no money is taken from players for pay outs...The bars pay the LO...
We vote on pay outs before league starts each session...We have 80% goes to teams and 20% goes to individuals...We pay $10 a night..5 man teams...
We vote on pay outs before league starts each session...We have 80% goes to teams and 20% goes to individuals...We pay $10 a night..5 man teams...
Just curious, is the league operator supposed to work for free? How much is an appropriate amount for the LO to be paid? You won't find me doing anything for 40+ weeks that pays me $18k, you can bet on that. League sounds way too small to make work, unless you are doing it for the love of the game cause that's minimum wage type money you guys are going nuts over
mikey ....i am surprised at your post. i thought you have been around long enough to know how pool players are.
we are talking about pool players here. you know they all wanna make money off this game or at least get their money back at the end of the year.
this time of year you always see threads started complaining about pay outs or not playing on the best equipment available. dont you know pool players expect leagues or lo's to give all their money back for pay outs and diamond tables ?
oh yea....dont forget about the threads popping up complaining about teams cheating ...swapping ineligible players...sandbagging..... master players trying to sneak in to the open bracket etc etc.
aint you figured out yet that leagues in general....lo's and tournament promoters in particular are supposed to pay through the nose to provide us pool players the means to play this game we love ?
I indeed have figured that out, I just didn't have your level of eloquence to say it quite that straight forward. The best part is people want their stats and website updated ASAP, they want the LO to go to each bar and pick up the scoresheets and cash, crunch the numbers, hold tourneys, and pay it all back.
I don't mind leagues sending teams to Vegas or whatever, but seriously these threads truly sound ridiculous. If you're that broke you're worrying about a free trip to Vegas or what 1st place pays, you should question your priorities.
Sidenote, I also have a pet peeve of people counting other peoples money like it is their own. I won a $3k added tourney, got paid like $1600...everybody complained about my payout more than congratulating me on a win. I haven't hit a ball since. That was exactly a month ago in Brooklyn at Gotham. The game is great, the people around it though I just can't take.
$18k is awful expensive for a guy keeping score and doing basic data entry a couple hours a week. From the info given, I'd bet his hourly wage is upwards of $100/hour
While I agree the payouts seem pretty bad, in a way it's besides the point. What I mean is should the payouts be the central reason you are playing in a league anyway? Even if the LO was doing it for next to nothing it's just not a lot of money. It's only really an issue for the top few teams that contend. All the dead money teams, regardless of how generous the LO is, are getting no financial return on their investment.
So why do THEY participate? Probably because they are enjoying themselves. Just a thought but maybe they've got it right.
My LO is very fair, AFAIK. And we are one of the contending teams. But honestly, I don't analyze it that closely. It's just not a lot of money anyway. Certainly not enough to get wound up about. Basically my decision to play is based on whether I'm having fun.
So why do THEY participate? Probably because they are enjoying themselves. Just a thought but maybe they've got it right.
My LO is very fair, AFAIK. And we are one of the contending teams. But honestly, I don't analyze it that closely. It's just not a lot of money anyway. Certainly not enough to get wound up about. Basically my decision to play is based on whether I'm having fun.
Sounds like you're on a team I'd play for. Kudos