BCA League Payouts (and operations) - Is this normal???

[cardiac kid]

We've had 2 bca leagues same night same bar lol they have no say

Miss your point. Who has no say? One of the leagues should have complained to BCAPL National. Probably the first league playing in the bar. You can have two independent leagues in the same bar. Just not on the same night. We researched this when another group of people tried to start a competing BCAPL league in Rochester. Think there are at least four independent BCAPL leagues operating in Vegas simultaneously. They just don't share bars or pool rooms.

Lyn

 

[cardiac kid]

No one is getting rich playing leagues.

I'm trying :sorry:

Lyn

 

[trob]

Miss your point. Who has no say? One of the leagues should have complained to BCAPL National. Probably the first league playing in the bar. You can have two independent leagues in the same bar. Just not on the same night. We researched this when another group of people tried to start a competing BCAPL league in Rochester. Think there are at least four independent BCAPL leagues operating in Vegas simultaneously. They just don't share bars or pool rooms.

Lyn

why? lol no one at the room cared. They were both traveling leagues with 2 different operators and some liked one better then the other or they liked the bars in one over the other. No one cared

 

[jojopiff]

We've had 2 bca leagues same night same bar lol they have no say

I am the VP of a BCA sanctioned league, if League A is playing in Bar X on Thursday night & I (League B) add a team to my Thursday night league out of Bar X then League A can complain to BCA & I would have to remove the team or relocate them if they are willing. You seem to think you know, you don't. Yes it does happen, we have a pool hall with 50 barboxes so yes that night/room gets shared. Maybe you live in a place with multiple large poolhalls so this might not pertain to you, but here many are played in bars with 1-4 tables & those do not get shared.

 

[jojopiff]

why? lol no one at the room cared. They were both traveling leagues with 2 different operators and some liked one better then the other or they liked the bars in one over the other. No one cared

I'm part of the smaller league so I'm in agreement with you but I can assure you the owner if the other league does care. She has & will get us removed if we infringe in her bars on her nights. Makes it tough to grow but on the other side of the coin it does ensure we aren't trying to steal her players & teams, in turn making her league shrink.

 

[trob]

I am the VP of a BCA sanctioned league, if League A is playing in Bar X on Thursday night & I (League B) add a team to my Thursday night league out of Bar X then League A can complain to BCA & I would have to remove the team or relocate them if they are willing. You seem to think you know, you don't. Yes it does happen, we have a pool hall with 50 barboxes so yes that night/room gets shared. Maybe you live in a place with multiple large poolhalls so this might not pertain to you, but here many are played in bars with 1-4 tables & those do not get shared.

I do know for my area. I didn't say the whole country was like this .. Ive seen it many times. It's not an in-house league so it didn't happen every week. They have 7 tables. our league would be on one table and they would be on another. No one complained because no one gave a shit. Who cares. We were all playing pool . If you guys would play as much pool as you did being complaining nit's on az you'd all be svb. lol

I wish I lived in an area with several large pool rooms. lol We have one with 7 and one with 9 I believe. lol 50 tables in one place would be like heaven.

 

[trob]

I'm part of the smaller league so I'm in agreement with you but I can assure you the owner if the other league does care. She has & will get us removed if we infringe in her bars on her nights. Makes it tough to grow but on the other side of the coin it does ensure we aren't trying to steal her players & teams, in turn making her league shrink.

No they don't care because no one makes money of bca leagues here... NO ONE..lol they're all non profit. I'm sure if they were using it as a business they would but Every penny they make goes back into the league. The people that run the acs and bca here do it for the love of the game.. not to pay there bills.

That is actually why people turned there nose to apa at first here. They couldn't imagine people making money off running a league. I don't have problem with it. It's a lot of damn work keeping all the stats and organizing the league but some it just turned there stomach to it.

 

[robsnotes4u]

Great Post

There are no prizes. What you get back at the end of a session is a security deposit. Your security deposit builds from week 1 and grows every week until the league is done. It is there so that every player finishes the league, even though they are out of contention and have lost interest.

So let me get this straight: For $6 a week you get to participate in a regular organized weekly event with your friends that takes 2-3 hours. You play pool for 2-3 hours every week. You are sanctioned by a national organization that permits you to participate in a spectacular Las Vegas production. Trophies, plaques, medals, and pins are awarded to players for outstanding performances at the end of a session. You are provided with a meal at a league banquet a week or two after the league is over.

You have spent $72, hung out with your friends and played pool on and off for 30 hours or so, had someone else do all the legwork for the function, were provided with awards for performances, given a meal at an organized banquet,.....and in addition to all of this, you want some money. You need to stop counting everyone elses money and decide if you got ample value for your $72. This is embarrassing.

In our league, the payout is great, I out if they are making or losing, but....

We can come in at 5 and play pool (actually have come in earlier with no problem) and play before league and after league, sometimes until 4 am for free.

Get one drink

We do all this for $12 a night. So I get a drink $5 value, and then pool from 3 to 11 hours for the other $7. Oh and did I mention for every table run I get an additional free hour of pool to be used in the next week.

Seems to me like it is a great deal. I am taking his tables out of commission for hours.

 

[jojopiff]

why? lol no one at the room cared. They were both traveling leagues with 2 different operators and some liked one better then the other or they liked the bars in one over the other. No one cared

No they don't care because no one makes money of bca leagues here... NO ONE..lol they're all non profit. I'm sure if they were using it as a business they would but Every penny they make goes back into the league. The people that run the acs and bca here do it for the love of the game.. not to pay there bills.

I'm not going to get into a name calling thing with you. If you'll look at my previous post I say I'm going to run the league for free & give all money back to players so I'm not trying to pay my bills. But just because I'm that way doesn't mean everyone else is or should be. If the owner of the other league IS trying to grow her league & use this as a source of income then who am you or I to get upset that she is using a rule that is in place by the BCA to not allow us into her bar?

 

[mikepage]

[...]
This is embarrassing.

I would like to see us--The AZB community and pool players generally--broaden our conception of what pool league is about.

Many of the comments to the OP are based on a limited historical idea of pool leagues. It's a symbiotic relationship that goes goes something like this:

A tavern devotes some space to a coin-operated pool table or two. Somebody--probably an agent of the vending company that owns the pool tables--runs pool leagues. That league operator (LO) assesses something like $6 per player per night, and all or most of that gets paid back to the players at the end. Players covet that "payout,"--a puny fraction of what they would earn if they flipped burgers at McDonalds instead of playing league on Tuesday nights--like it was buckets of gold. The LO/Vendor does this as a service to the tavern (client) because the vendor also has a juke box, video machines on the bar and dart boards, etc. The tavern gets a bunch of patrons in on a weeknight. They keep league on one table so everybody stays late. Players barely play a game an hour. If the tavern is lucky, there are people bumping into the players and walking withing a few feet of the pool table.

There are a lot of variations of this. A key point, though, is they are not pool-centric. Pool is along for the ride in these scenarios. The "pool league at little or no cost" is like free cookies and coffee at the car dealership. Yes, this old model has produced a lot of Vegas pool teams and has been a key part of amateur pool. But it's not the key to growth. It's not the future of amateur pool.

Players need to support efforts that are fueled by passion for the sport. And the first thing they can do is move beyond the expectations ingrained from the old model described above.

What if someone put in some quality tables that cost several times the cost of those vending tables? What if there were no coin mechanisms on the tables? What if there was six+ feet between the tables? What if the tables were covered in Simonis? What if the tables were comfortably away from distractions? What if two tables rather than one were devoted to a league match? What if the house cues, tables, bridges etc were all well maintained and available? What if the location also ran weekly and occasional larger tournaments?

Of course I recognize much of this is unrelated to the concerns of the OP. I think the legitimate beef the OP had was not the payouts or lack thereof. It was the lack of communication on behalf of the operator. The LO should be upfront, at least approximately, with what the payouts will be. If the fee is $6, and $1 of that goes to payout, then maybe the players would choose upfront to make the fee $10 and have $5 go to payout...

 

[staypuff578]

This is a small world.

I was reading it saying "man, that sounds like my Manteca/Stockton League I play on, Thursday nights ran by Robert Britt". But thought there was no way, until I seen the SJ league chart at the bottom.

My Team (Team Ramrod) has joined and quit this league twice, the second time was 2 years apart from the first when we realized nothing changed, and it had gotten worse.

I'm actually playing again for Pool Junkies to help them finish this last session and getting to Vegas.

This hasn't been just the last three sessions, it has been since 2011 when I first moved back and joined it, then quit after the first session I played because it was a joke.

My primary league is Modesto for a reason.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Paul, On this point I believe we disagree. What you seemed to have missed is the OP considered the "theft" of players money by the league operator as operating expenses. Lyn

There was no mention in the OP of advertised or guaranteed prizes. That would change everything.

 

[CSI - Ozzy]

Investigation

We at the BCA Pool League have investigated this issue. This particular League Operator has chosen to operate his league in a way that provides opportunities for teams to earn a free trip to the BCAPL National Championships. The vast majority of the money represented in the pie chart as "League Operator" is actually used to send team(s) to Las Vegas in July. The expenses include entry fees, travel, hotel, etc.

While League Operators are largely free to structure their leagues in a manner they see fit, when there are allegations of misconduct we will investigate. In this case, it appears that the League Operator is using an appropriate amount of league revenue to send team(s) to the National Championships. Thank you.

 

[Mark Griffin]

See how these rumors just taint everybody?

So the LO takes a lot of the money and pays costs to get teams to the Nationals. That is a good thing.

BUT - how much damage did he get from all the posts in this thread.

Just an FYI - we do take things seriously. And it takes a while to properly investigate and determine the facts. I am only venting because nobody will see the explanation since it is on the last page.

It is upsetting to see good people being bashed by half truths and innuendos. The original poster should have done a little investigation before going public - that is how you resolve issues without damaging anybody's reputation - at least until it is established they are doing something wrong.

Mark Griffin

 

[Rich Irving]

Paying for vegas

If the LO was giving money for a team or teams to go to Vegas ,I would think he should let everyone know that is his intent.
At one time our LO kept all money and took the top two teams to Vegas paying for their flight and room.
At this current time our LO pays all of the money back to the league members depending on how they placed in the season. First place team this year got 1200. Our LO adds 5 dollars to the member dues for the year and that covers her expenses.

 

[BuddyWing]

Good post Mark
Thank you ......

 

[ssbn610g]

In my eyes, this incident is a big positive and has made me feel better about leagues under the CSI umbrella. There was an apparent mistake made by a league member which was quickly investigated and dealt with by the league parents. I say, good going and kudos.

Al

 

[The Renfro]

Well it still depends... Does the LO actually pay for the team to go to nationals or is he just collecting money so he "can"... Can and does are 2 separate things and I would hope the 2 posters on here that play in that league would know if the LO paid that money out or not???

It may turn out the no one in the league has seen it done... Maybe Oz called more than the LO and called the team members who went to nationals most recently from that particular league but I still have popcorn left so I had to point out talking to the LO may not have yielded the full truth LOL

 

[shotmaker45]

This will be my last post, as I am sure we all have better ways to occupy our time. Nevertheless, a few things need to be clarified.

The original poster should have done a little investigation before going public

"Investigation" was conducted based on the limited information that was made available to league members over the past 9 months. And, keep in mind, the last league member who brought up the same concerns was kicked out of the league by the league operator.

Please understand, I took no joy in writing that post.

Of course, as the saying goes, "There are three sides to every story".

However, the problem in this particular case is a lack of transparency.

There simply was/is no financial information available, league guidelines, bylaws, etc. that would explain how/where the money collected will actually be spent. Again, this information is noticeably absent on the local league web site (www.sjvpool.com) even though the BCA provides detailed instructions and templates for doing so.

This lack of transparency is best illustrated by what information we do have available – the approximate dollar amount collected along with the approximate dollar amount paid out.

Here's more math for those of you who like numbers.

3 sessions (already completed) with the following:

18 teams
5 players per team
$6 per player, per week
12 week session

3 * (18 * 5 * 6 * 12) = $19,440 collected


1 session (in progress) with the following:

18 teams
5 players per team
$6 per player, per week
7 week session

18 * 5 * 6 * 7 = $3,780 collected

Grand total collected for the 4 sessions: $19,440 + $3,780 = $23,220

Total approximate payouts (see original post) for the 4 sessions: $750 * 4 sessions = $3,000

So... $23,220 collected - $3,000 paid out (so far) = $20,220

Now we are getting somewhere...

We at the BCA Pool League have investigated this issue. This particular League Operator has chosen to operate his league in a way that provides opportunities for teams to earn a free trip to the BCAPL National Championships. The vast majority of the money represented in the pie chart as "League Operator" is actually used to send team(s) to Las Vegas in July. The expenses include entry fees, travel, hotel, etc.

So, based on the math above, there is $20,220 remaining, which will be divided between the "League Operator" and "Vegas Expenses".

Would it be too much trouble to request a League Financial Statement (covering the past 4 sessions) for this local league? (please don't hesitate to post it in this thread)

From the BCA League Operator's Manual:

From time to time league members have questions concerning the structure of their league. The national office can assist the League Operator in heading off any disputes and validate the structure of financials.

Your players want and deserve a financial accounting of all transactions associated with league operations that is straight-forward and easy to understand.

Also, would it be too much trouble to have something in writing that explains exactly how teams in this league may "earn a free trip to the BCAPL National Championships" (total points? highest average? random lottery?) ???

Edited to add: I would also like to note that I did provide the BCA with contact information for member(s) of this league who wished to detail their experiences/concerns/questions/problems. So far, the BCA has not contacted them.


TL;DR / Summary: Transparency is not just a sign of good faith, it is also good business practice. Following the [signed and agreed upon] guidelines in the BCA League Operator's Manual is a good way to ensure issues such as this one do not arise and league players are kept happy, or at least pacified.

 

[cardiac kid]

Just to update my last post, here is what was included in the league statistics for the final week of our "Vegas" league. Think between doing the original math and this payout schedule from our league, all our players know exactly where their weekly dues are going. More leagues should do this.

Lyn