BCA -- On the Road to Nowhere

[FranCrimi]

Very interesting view, and one which I think is the truth today. They need to remove themselves from being recognized by the WPA.

Before you call for BCA's secession from the WPA, maybe I can explain a bit how the system works:

The BCA has a WPA committee. This committee consists of representatives of the WPBA, the Men Pros, the Juniors, Wheelchair players, and the Canadians. When Jerry and I would have an issue that concerned any of these areas, we took it to the applicable committee member. For example: anything involving the women pros in the U.S. was taken to the WPBA committee member who then took it to the WPBA for approval. The same went for the Juniors or Wheelchair players, etc.

Taking the ranking points away from the UPA was a very difficult decision and was not made by just one or two people. Many were consulted --- and that includes players. In hindsight, I can definitely say that it was absolutely the right decision.

No decision is made in haste, and no decision affecting players is made solely by the BCA, but rather in agreement with the applicable group. The BCA pays $10,000 dues every year for the North American players to participate in international sanctioned events. It never asked for a share from the WPBA or the men pros, or any other organization.

Jerry and I spent most of our time consulting with the various associations in North America, and when we needed an objective opinion about something, we had the wisdom of Ivan Lee, and I'm not kidding about his wisdom.

I want to dispel the rumors that the BCA is making decisions for the players. Not true in the least. It's just that sometimes a player may not be happy with a decision that's made, so they blame the BCA because they are the one paying the dues.

I hope that clears up a little bit on how things are structured.

 

[JAM]

...I hope that clears up a little bit on how things are structured.

Thank you for taking the time to provide your thoughts.

Is there a place where one can learn who is on the BCA committee that makes these decisions? Who are its members?

 

[FranCrimi]

Thank you for taking the time to provide your thoughts.

Is there a place where one can learn who is on the BCA committee that makes these decisions? Who are its members?

Yes, I've pasted the Committee info from the BCA website. You will have to check with Jerry Forsyth regarding the men's pro reps. Either Karim is their rep or the committee list may need to be updated. Keep in mind, that every committee member has their go-to list of names as well, so there are many more people who get consulted than are listed here.


WPA
The WPA Committee will provide input on various issues associated with World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) participation, including player selection processes for international events, rules and specifications issues, potential scenarios for hosting international events in North America and other timely topics paramount to the sport and industry.

Karim Belhaj, Billiard Congress of America, Chair
Ivan Lee, BCA Delegate to WPA
Jerry Forsyth, BCA Delegate to WPA
Laura Smith, Billiard Education Foundation
Steve Cooper, CBSA
Dawn Hopkins, WPBA
Jeff Dolezal, NWPA

 

[JAM]

Yes, I've pasted the Committee info from the BCA website. You will have to check with Jerry Forsyth regarding the men's pro reps. Either Karim is their rep or the committee list may need to be updated. Keep in mind, that every committee member has their go-to list of names as well, so there are many more people who get consulted than are listed here.


WPA
The WPA Committee will provide input on various issues associated with World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) participation, including player selection processes for international events, rules and specifications issues, potential scenarios for hosting international events in North America and other timely topics paramount to the sport and industry.

Karim Belhaj, Billiard Congress of America, Chair
Ivan Lee, BCA Delegate to WPA
Jerry Forsyth, BCA Delegate to WPA
Laura Smith, Billiard Education Foundation
Steve Cooper, CBSA
Dawn Hopkins, WPBA
Jeff Dolezal, NWPA

Thanks for the list.

I appreciate your suggestions that I should contact Jerry Forsyth for further information. Jerry Forsyth is a moderator of this forum, and we have exchanged posts in the past.

It is true, Fran, that this is a "message board" and that the WPA and BCA do not have to explain their actions here, or anyone associated with them has to explain their actions here for that matter.

My thought is that if the BCA and WPA were more forthcoming with the pool public, to include this "message board," which may be the largest concentration of the pool reading public on the Internet, there would not be a lack of understanding of how decisions are made. People would not hear about incidents after the fact, after the decision was made, wondering how something happened. This is why most industry organizations put out press briefings, to inform its public. A good industry organization is transparent and keeps things out in the open. They don't make decisions behind a closed curtain, with only a few people steering the ship.

I realize, as you stated in your earlier post, you have no dog in this fight, and it is very nice of you to exert the effort and spend your time repsonding to this thread on a "message board." I do believe there are some good folks behind the scenes who have the same desire as myself, which is for the betterment of pool in these United States.

It is a shame the American male pros aren't being looked after by the BCA when it comes to sponsoring them in WPA-sanctioned events. Other countries seem to be able to muster up the dough to support their countries' pros, but not our BCA. They gave that up a couple years ago. Even when they did do it, they kept it secret how much money each player got, and it was *never* enough to cover expenses for the WPA-sanctioned tournaments overseas.

The BCA sold the BCA league system to Mark Griffin. They have discontinued their once-a-year BCA Open, which is really an invitational and never was an open. As most know, half of the player field at the BCA Open were non-American pro players who received invitations from the BCA, the organization that represents the United States. There were, in fact, some American pros that were excluded from that 64-player field, so that their brethren of foreign counterparts could take a shot at the money in the purse provided by the BCA, again, the organization that is supposed to be representing and looking out for the interests of American professional pool players.

I just don't see the BCA doing much to help professional pool in the United States. They should throw in the towel as being the representative for professional pool to the WPA. The BCA will save money for sure, once they disband the committee that is supposed to look after professional pool. Since the BCA is currently experiencing a financial upset with the paultry $700,000 they still have in the bank, they could now use those funds to keep their BCA staff gainfully employed and industry members happy.

Meanwhile, the existing lot of American pro players continues to dwindle, with little to no support from the BCA, the organizational entity that is supposed to be looking out for their interests to the WPA as well as keeping professional pool alive and well in North America, to include the United States. The WPA/BCA folks travel the world to attend these pool events, while the majority of American pro players are stuck in a wilderness with no subsidies, scrambling for crumbs.

BTW, I looked up "Karim Belhaj," and he's with Predator brand name. I had thought Predator is one of Thorsten Hohmann's sponsors. Simonis Cloth is a sponsor of Thorsten's. How nice it is that the Simonis guy and the Predator guy are both on the BCA committee that makes the decisions which players are given the green light and the golden ticket to compete in the overseas WPA-sanctioned tournaments representing the BCA, the organization that is supposed to be representing North America. I wonder which American player lost out on that deal.

 

[JAM]

The BCA has been a useless, irrelevant, and possibly even harmful entity in this sport for decades. The have not only managed to be one of the major powers that oversaw the downfall of the sport from a fairly high level of respect and exposure (relatively speaking to today) from the 1950's to today. They did not seem to be able to grasp onto the absolutely phenomenal and FREE marketing that took place at the release of the Color of Money and use that to gain much needed fans and introduce the sport and it's players to the general public. They have been at best, useless, and at worst they have been harmful because their ineffectiveness is from a place of power and control that extends beyond their own business dealings due to long past former glory of the "BCA" when it was a legit and meaningful organization that controlled a positive sport.

An organization is only as good as the people in charge, their goals, outlook, work ethic, and their skills and abilities to see the sport move forward. It has been a long time since the BCA has had a group of people like that. It is sad.

Truth is I think the BCA is old, tired, and best forgotton. It is like a 100 year old house with termite eaten frame, cracked and eroded foundation, the roof is falling in. It is in a state where fixing it would cost more then simply getting the wrecking ball in, destroying the old structure, and completely rebuilding from scratch. That is both cheaper and will result in a better built house. The BCA needs to be wrote off, we need to build something new to replace it and the power that the BCA which comes from the participants of this sport and its fans needs to move on to something better with more forward thinking people and business models for the sport.

[Snipped some of the best parts]

Anyhow... I am done, too long to read at this point.

Hear, hear, and tap, tap, tap! :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[JAM]

A similar article/same author was published in Billiard Retailer. BSE was geared primarily towards room owners (Coke/Sysco) which leads me to the question of who had the responsibility to drive the program - BCA or BSE. If the results were miserable (as stated - but who knows what the results were vs. the game plan) it seems to make sense to pull the plug and not throw good money after bad. I'm a little curious as to what services BSE actually provided for $240K....

That is extremely interesting and good point.

 

[JAM]

That's pretty much how it is in most magazines. Especially ones that derive the majority of revenue from ads.

Welcome to reality.

Panazzo had always been one to tell it like it is though. In that regard his editorials in BD have called out the BCA plenty of times.

You've always been a smart cookie.

 

[Zbotiman]

Humor?

When I talk about these matters with Keith, he's been burned several times by various pool organizations from the past, and he seems to have sort of accepted the current state of affairs. In other words, when tournament organizers don't pay, it's not as shocking to him as it is to most today. He just seems to accept it in stride and looks forward to the next event. Been there and done that, I guess, numerous times.

There have been several attempts at elevating pool in America during the last 40 years that failed, some due to greed and others maybe not a good understanding of how to create the initial platform. The IPT comes to mind. They had the right vision, but they started out too big, resulting in their failure in less than two years.

I believe that professional pool is dying in America, and I do blame the BCA as our North American representative. If the BCA can't cut the mustard and help professional players, then they need to remove themselves from being the authoritative entity that the WPA looks to representing the American interests.

The only way professional players have been able to eke out a living in the States has been to leave tournament play and find another niche, whether it's promoting pool products with their name on it or promoting big events like the Super Billiards Expo. Tournament competition is not economically possible for 95 percent of American players, unless they have a sponsor or are staked. And I can count on one hand how many American players are sponsored.

....when I responded to your original post, the organization of all of those thoughts about money just rushed to the page. The bad news is, that it's always just about money. Even among the best intentioned, in this arena of pool, it's always MONEY.
"I wish there was an organization with people who cared about what great pool is all about, and they were promoting this sport!"
First, among the general pool playing public, and second, trying to invent ways to stimulate interest in the general public to watch and support it.

Hey, I saw the John Barton meets professor Johnson cartoon, "I swear, anybody could watch that and laugh!" Stuff like that, might be a REAL focal point for generating outside awareness to the funny and interesting things of pool!

One thing seems certain to me about this sport, if any form of salvation is coming for the pro's, it will have to start from within, with the ball bangers! When that group "get's it" there will be something to build upon.

 

[FranCrimi]

Thanks for the list.

I appreciate your suggestions that I should contact Jerry Forsyth for further information. Jerry Forsyth is a moderator of this forum, and we have exchanged posts in the past.

It is true, Fran, that this is a "message board" and that the WPA and BCA do not have to explain their actions here, or anyone associated with them has to explain their actions here for that matter.

My thought is that if the BCA and WPA were more forthcoming with the pool public, to include this "message board," which may be the largest concentration of the pool reading public on the Internet, there would not be a lack of understanding of how decisions are made. People would not hear about incidents after the fact, after the decision was made, wondering how something happened. This is why most industry organizations put out press briefings, to inform its public. A good industry organization is transparent and keeps things out in the open. They don't make decisions behind a closed curtain, with only a few people steering the ship.

I realize, as you stated in your earlier post, you have no dog in this fight, and it is very nice of you to exert the effort and spend your time repsonding to this thread on a "message board." I do believe there are some good folks behind the scenes who have the same desire as myself, which is for the betterment of pool in these United States.

It is a shame the American male pros aren't being looked after by the BCA when it comes to sponsoring them in WPA-sanctioned events. Other countries seem to be able to muster up the dough to support their countries' pros, but not our BCA. They gave that up a couple years ago. Even when they did do it, they kept it secret how much money each player got, and it was *never* enough to cover expenses for the WPA-sanctioned tournaments overseas.

The BCA sold the BCA league system to Mark Griffin. They have discontinued their once-a-year BCA Open, which is really an invitational and never was an open. As most know, half of the player field at the BCA Open were non-American pro players who received invitations from the BCA, the organization that represents the United States. There were, in fact, some American pros that were excluded from that 64-player field, so that their brethren of foreign counterparts could take a shot at the money in the purse provided by the BCA, again, the organization that is supposed to be representing and looking out for the interests of American professional pool players.

I just don't see the BCA doing much to help professional pool in the United States. They should throw in the towel as being the representative for professional pool to the WPA. The BCA will save money for sure, once they disband the committee that is supposed to look after professional pool. Since the BCA is currently experiencing a financial upset with the paultry $700,000 they still have in the bank, they could now use those funds to keep their BCA staff gainfully employed and industry members happy.

Meanwhile, the existing lot of American pro players continues to dwindle, with little to no support from the BCA, the organizational entity that is supposed to be looking out for their interests to the WPA as well as keeping professional pool alive and well in North America, to include the United States. The WPA/BCA folks travel the world to attend these pool events, while the majority of American pro players are stuck in a wilderness with no subsidies, scrambling for crumbs.

BTW, I looked up "Karim Belhaj," and he's with Predator brand name. I had thought Predator is one of Thorsten Hohmann's sponsors. Simonis Cloth is a sponsor of Thorsten's. How nice it is that the Simonis guy and the Predator guy are both on the BCA committee that makes the decisions which players are given the green light and the golden ticket to compete in the overseas WPA-sanctioned tournaments representing the BCA, the organization that is supposed to be representing North America. I wonder which American player lost out on that deal.

Jen, I know you wrote a lot here but I'm just going to respond to a very serious implication which is what I highlighted in blue. First, Karim is not just 'with' Predator. He owns Predator. He has associations with many players. Before you accuse Karim and Ivan of doing something illegal or underhanded, I suggest you confer with Jerry Forsyth, as I have suggested twice before to you, regarding how the players are selected. Please get the facts first before making implications that result in rumors on a message board that can do harmful damage to someone's reputation.

 

[JAM]

[/COLOR]

Jen, I know you wrote a lot here but I'm just going to respond to a very serious implication which is what I highlighted in blue. First, Karim is not just 'with' Predator. He owns Predator. He has associations with many players. Before you accuse Karim and Ivan of doing something illegal or underhanded, I suggest you confer with Jerry Forsyth, as I have suggested twice before to you, regarding how the players are selected. Please get the facts first before making implications that result in rumors on a message board that can do harmful damage to someone's reputation.

Fran, thank you for your suggestion that I contact Jerry Forsyth again.

I guess I don't understand why these kinds of decisions for player selection are *not* done in the open, instead of behind closed doors. It would not necessitate me trying to communicate with various entities, such as Jerry Forsyth, et al., to get the answer, an answer after the fact.

I like Thorsten Hohmann and respect his caliber of play. I just don't understand why he was sent overseas to a WPA-sanctioned tournament by the BCA.

What you have highlighted in blue, it is true that the Predator and Simonis guys are on that player selection committee for the BCA.

As far the "message boards," Fran, I am doing exactly what most do on "message boards." I am expressing my opinion, as are you. This is not a court of law here. I'm not sure what you mean by "illegal." If decisions were made out in the open, if the BCA was more transparent, there would never be wonderment on why things happen the way they have, again, after the fact.

Thanks again for taking your time to relay the information.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

IMHO the BCA should go away, and All Pool be run by One Group, with One Set of Rule for All.

One Group works in Pro Golf, Baseball, Football, Baketball, NASCAR, etc!

 

[JAM]

....when I responded to your original post, the organization of all of those thoughts about money just rushed to the page. The bad news is, that it's always just about money. Even among the best intentioned, in this arena of pool, it's always MONEY.
"I wish there was an organization with people who cared about what great pool is all about, and they were promoting this sport!"
First, among the general pool playing public, and second, trying to invent ways to stimulate interest in the general public to watch and support it.

Hey, I saw the John Barton meets professor Johnson cartoon, "I swear, anybody could watch that and laugh!" Stuff like that, might be a REAL focal point for generating outside awareness to the funny and interesting things of pool!

One thing seems certain to me about this sport, if any form of salvation is coming for the pro's, it will have to start from within, with the ball bangers! When that group "get's it" there will be something to build upon.

The way the BCA organization is being handled today, professional pool is already dead. The BCA organizational staff still has $700,000 left to enable them to travel the world to the WPA-sanctioned events and keep their staffs gainfully employed. How fortunate they are.

You're right about the leagues and building from the bottom up. That is what Mark Griffin is doing with the CSI and his league system. Everything with both of these organizations are always out in the open and above board. There's no guesswork or favoritism.

Either Mark Griffin or Matchroom Sports should be given the reigns to take professional pool to the next level. The WPA and the BCA have created a caste system in pool, and they are not transparent.

 

[JAM]

The whole problem with the BCA is they do not communicate with professional players. They make decisions behind the curtain, and then nobody knows why until after the fact.

The BCA should be in communication with American professional players at all times, keeping them informed of upcoming events, the same way they stay in communication with their industry members.

If the industry members are running the BCA, it explains volumes on player selection.

 

[JAM]

IMHO the BCA should go away, and All Pool be run by One Group, with One Set of Rule for All.

One Group works in Pro Golf, Baseball, Football, Baketball, NASCAR, etc!

I agree. I think it should be either Mark Griffin or Matchroom Sports.

They have good communication with the pool public. They both issue press releases all the time and keep everyone informed. They contact professional players directly. They actually listen to what people have to say and make adjustments when needed. They both care about the survival of pool.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I agree. I think it should be either Mark Griffin or Matchroom Sports.

They have good communication with the pool public. They both issue press releases all the time and keep everyone informed. They contact professional players directly. They actually listen to what people have to say and make adjustments when needed. They both care about the survival of pool.

Part of the problem I see in pool is too many LEAGUE BRAND, and Too MANY People wanting to be "KING", and few people working in one direction.

Instead in some place like where I live the mind set is to try your darnest to under mind the other guy, other room owner, so someone will be the last person or room standing. King of what?

APA has what 200,000-300,000 Members but no Monthly Publication, Quarterly Publication, or Bi-monthly Publication. Does showing your APA Card earn you anything like Discounts on Rent a Cars, or?

BCAPL has what 50,000 Members, and what are the benefit of a BCA Membership if you don’t play in the 8 Ball National in Sin City?

 

[pro9dg]

BTW, I looked up "Karim Belhaj," and he's with Predator brand name. I had thought Predator is one of Thorsten Hohmann's sponsors. Simonis Cloth is a sponsor of Thorsten's. How nice it is that the Simonis guy and the Predator guy are both on the BCA committee that makes the decisions which players are given the green light and the golden ticket to compete in the overseas WPA-sanctioned tournaments representing the BCA, the organization that is supposed to be representing North America. I wonder which American player lost out on that deal.

Jen
No US players missed out on any deal. The US/Canada quota for the World 8 Ball was 8 spots. Only 6 were taken up. After Thorsten got the 7th one there was still one not claimed by the BCA.

 

[justadub]

Part of the problem I see in pool is too many LEAGUE BRAND, and Too MANY People wanting to be "KING", and few people working in one direction.

Instead in some place like where I live the mind set is to try your darnest to under mind the other guy, other room owner, so someone will be the last person or room standing. King of what?

APA has what 200,000-300,000 Members but no Monthly Publication, Quarterly Publication, or Bi-monthly Publication. Does showing your APA Card earn you anything like Discounts on Rent a Cars, or?

BCAPL has what 50,000 Members, and what are the benefit of a BCA Membership if you don’t play in the 8 Ball National in Sin City?

Uh, yeah. APA has a monthly publication. Members do get discounts on rent-a-cars and hotels, and a few others I can't recall without checking.

If you really want to know, go here:

http://www.poolplayers.com/

After going there and checking myself, there are a large number of vendors who we get discounts from.

I'm quite sure BCApl has a similar website, explaining benefits of their membership.

That having been said, we get the benefit of an actual organization, maintaining rules, regulations, results and promotions. As do BCApl members, and probably TAP and VNEA as well. You say there are too many league brands, but it seems to me that the leagues are the only ones that are keeping pool in front of the greatest number of people in this country. That seems to be a "benefit" in and of itself.

I still believe that for any pro organization to really succeed, they need to involve the league systems, as they contain a huge number of people who are already interested in pool. An installed customer base, we say in my business...

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Uh, yeah. APA has a monthly publication. Members do get discounts on rent-a-cars and hotels, and a few others I can't recall without checking.

If you really want to know, go here:

http://www.poolplayers.com/

After going there and checking myself, there are a large number of vendors who we get discounts from.

I'm quite sure BCApl has a similar website, explaining benefits of their membership.

That having been said, we get the benefit of an actual organization, maintaining rules, regulations, results and promotions. As do BCApl members, and probably TAP and VNEA as well. You say there are too many league brands, but it seems to me that the leagues are the only ones that are keeping pool in front of the greatest number of people in this country. That seems to be a "benefit" in and of itself.

I still believe that for any pro organization to really succeed, they need to involve the league systems, as they contain a huge number of people who are already interested in pool. An installed customer base, we say in my business...

Yes there is a LINK on the APA Site, BCAPL seem to have Zero perk with Membership.

But I still think One Organization, and One Set of Rules for All Pool = Strength in NUMBERS.

 

[Dartman]

...
I just don't see the BCA doing much to help professional pool in the United States. ...

Times have changed since 1948 - http://www.bca.affiniscape.com/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=25 and it's not about the players anymore.

The major emphasis nowadays is on the industry - the folks selling tables, cues, cloth, furnishings, etc. with some lesser emphasis on pool rooms. It's up to the industry to make billiards "everybodys game" and I'd hazard a guess that a bca retail member is more concerned with selling a table then who's playing at some event in Dubai. That speaking from personal experience as a bca member with a store selling tables and accessories.

All the factions (retailers, mfg's, room owners, players, etc) have their own agendas. I'd like to see the bca promote the sport at the pro level altho I think there would be some stepping on toes since every independent event promoter wants to do things "their way". I'm sure it's been said countless times that billiards here has no organization - something the bca could do but why they don't is anyones guess.

All just IMO.

 

[justnum]

Another problem statement I am digesting from all this is that professional pool talents can't employ their skills to sustain a living.

That isn't a new problem at all, people have talent but can't use it to support themselves.

The BCA seems like they don't want to favor some players more than others by picking only a few players to support. It seem they don't support any players at all, for financial support. But will offer organizational support.

Things the BCA has the organizational ability to do that can help players is to hire them for demonstrations when selling equipment. MJ sell sneakers and he is about as symbolic as it gets when it comes to employing sport talents. Get the pros into advertising. I love how authentic some of the players are with their regional distinctions, it adds value to something deeply rooted in culture.

Things the BCA has the ability to do that can help an entire group of players is a mucho more mas challenging problem. Since the BCA has a network they could help get the word out when tournaments go bad and become an advocate for promoting tournaments that payout and a punisher for tournaments that "need more time." The BCA's network I don't know how big it is, but I'm sure it has some heavy hitters.

Too often I see tournaments that have financial issues when it comes to paying out prizes go unnoticed or covered up. The BCA has a network and it can get the word out, what impact would it have? Well telling a lot of people you are bad for the industry might roll into your room sales and attendance. It is often the case people attend rooms but know nothing about the business ethics of its owner. I hear there is an ongoing issue to people tied with the USPPA but warning signs were seen early on based on room owners dealing with the guy. So room owners can also relay information back to the community about shady people as well.

The BCA is much stronger for distribution and collection of information about leaders in the industry be it room owner, tournament organizer or players. It can keep people aware of what they should be aware of. I bet they might even have historical records of events with dubious outcomes.