BCA -- On the Road to Nowhere

[Scott Lee]

JAM...I love ya, but you're dead wrong here. NONE of the BCA board of directors "travel the world to the WPA-sanctioned events"...zero. It's the WPA bigwigs that misuse funds (imo) to travel all over God's Green Acres...and for what? As far as what the BCA does with the budget they have, you don't know what those things are. If you really want to know, and have a say in how it is spent, get yourself elected to the Board. It's not impossible. It's a lot easier to sit on the couch and complain about how unfair things are, than actually do something about it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The BCA organizational staff still has $700,000 left to enable them to travel the world to the WPA-sanctioned events and keep their staffs gainfully employed. How fortunate they are.

 

[JAM]

Jen
No US players missed out on any deal. The US/Canada quota for the World 8 Ball was 8 spots. Only 6 were taken up. After Thorsten got the 7th one there was still one not claimed by the BCA.

Thanks, Doug.

I wonder why Germany didn't send Thorsten to represent them instead.

It is a shame that the BCA WPA committee doesn't have better communication with the North American professional pool players to keep them informed about WPA-sanctioned events.

There sure wasn't much media coverage about this tournament, Doug. I know some folks were hoping it would be streamed, so folks could watch it live.

Again, there is a caste system in the pool world. Industry members are running the BCA. Selection processes are done behind closed doors. Decisions are made willy-nilly, and nobody knows what's happening until after the events have already occurred. I get it now.

 

[JAM]

JAM...I love ya, but you're dead wrong here. NONE of the BCA board of directors "travel the world to the WPA-sanctioned events"...zero. It's the WPA bigwigs that misuse funds (imo) to travel all over God's Green Acres...and for what? As far as what the BCA does with the budget they have, you don't know what those things are. If you really want to know, and have a say in how it is spent, get yourself elected to the Board. It's not impossible. It's a lot easier to sit on the couch and complain about how unfair things are, than actually do something about it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I just think there should be more transparency, Scott, but I appreciate your wise words of wisdom.

 

[Wags]

...snip I still believe that for any pro organization to really succeed, they need to involve the league systems, as they contain a huge number of people who are already interested in pool. An installed customer base, we say in my business...

Once the BCA decided to become a trade organization and divested itself of the league system, that is what they are. They have no links with players of any kind. Somehow (probably by paying a hefty fee) they became the US rep. for ranking players for the WPA. I'm sure they thought they would get something in return but to me it was just another STUPID move by the BCA board.

We can't return to yesterday and part of requirements for being the representative is to be a non-profit organization. That leaves out all the pool organizations except the BCA & ACS, which are the only non-profits left standing. The ACS was the rep until...somehow...

At present, the BCA is useless to any player, amateur or pro. Pro pool is moving farther and farther from its built in base of league players. For me, the solution is easy. If every national league entity were to stage at least one open event per year (maybe the larger ones, 2). $20,000 added 8-ball on bar tables, using their specific rules and a $200 entry. That would give the pros a number of decent money tournaments and would energize the base.

Of course, I would get a 10 to 20% spiff and free entry for the idea. :wink:

Actually, I would love to be involved in making something like that happen.

Fooey on the BCA...they are useless.

 

[ChesapeakeBlrds]

This year I decided to no longer support the BCA, since they truly don't support our industry, whatsoever. Room owners really have no true reason to be a member or the BCA, since the trade show does them no good. So Bank Shot was unveiled, but Bank Shot doesn't do anything for us dealers in the least.

The BCA is ran by manufacturers, who then show there stuff at the trade show, the BCA only helps themselves, and truly doesn't help anyone else. Being a member of the BCA only got me admission to the trade show, and the trade show isn't even worth my time anymore since the vendors mail the specials out anyway!

I have talked to the people over at the BCA who run it, they don't know the first thing about the game, the product, the construction of a pool table or anything, and that is disheartening. The individuals running it should have some knowledge of the industry they are in. Problem is, what else would we turn to?

 

[azhousepro]

Just to fill in some of the blanks here...

As Scott said, the BCA reps do not go to WPA events. I have been to most of the most recent WPA World Events and I can assure you that no BCA board member was there.

You made the comment that the BCA operates without the input from the Pro players. Just recently, there was the issue of whether to add the Seminole events to the list of BCA point events. This was not a decision that the BCA would make without input from the players, so emails were sent out to the top 20-30 players on the BCA list. I believe the number that were returned was 4. So, just over 10% of the pro players polled even bothered to reply.

As for Thorsten, Germany is represented by the EPBF. They make their player invitations based on the Eurotour points list (just like the BCA makes their invites based on the BCA points list). Thorsten (and Mika) do not play on the Eurotour, so that leaves them having to hope for Promoter invites and wildcards.

Look at it from the Eurotour's side of things. Sure, Thorsten and Mika deserve to be at these events. But the EPBF has a limited # of invites. They have hundreds of players at each Eurotour stop and those players come out to play in order to earn invites to these events. Should the EPBF set aside an invite for Mika and Thorsten instead of two players who come out and play in every point event?

As for the money issue, comparing the EPBF's funding of pro players to the BCA's lack of funding is not fair. Other federations get money from their Olympic committee and that is the funding that goes to the players. The BCA does not have that revenue stream. If the EPBF had to fund themselves entirely on membership money, I seriously doubt the players would see any part of it.

I can't tell you everything that the BCA does, because I don't know. But I am pretty sure that it is not high on their priority list to get a representative to log into the forums and explain their actions to all of us.

Mike

 

[JAM]

Thank you for chiming in, Mike, with some factual information about the BCA.

I never expected a BCA member to join the AzBilliards Discussion Forum to explain things, but it sure would be nice if the BCA issued press releases or kept in contact with the pool public to explain their activities as it pertains to professional pool. If they did, like Matchroom Sports and CSI does, there would be nobody questioning why something happened the way it did, after the fact.

This is not the first time in the last 10 years that I have witnessed the BCA in action behind a closed curtain, making decisions, eliminating some professional players from competition over others, with no explanation. It is not fair to those the BCA eliminates.

Of course, I understand if only 4 American players responded to the BCA's cry for advice, then that's on the backs of the American players that they did not act. Maybe if the BCA played a more active role in American professional pool, these players would be more responsive.

I just read the front page of news this morning. AzBilliards manages to keep the pool public abreast of the latest happenings around the world. It was nice to see Fabio Petroni from Italy playing well in the European Straight Pool Championship, a tournament. According to the article, the event is hosted by the European Governing Body for Pool, the European Pocket Billiard Federation (EPBF), and organized by International Billiard Promotion (IBP). Not one American competed in it. I wonder if the EPBF would have granted an American the opportunity to compete in their events, like the BCA did in the now-defunct BCA Open, to include giving two European players an invite to this recent WPA-sanctioned tournament, so they can get their precious WPA ranking points for future WPA-sanctioned events

It is sad that Mika and Thorsten are not able to play in enough EPBF events to gain their ranking in order to go to the WPA-sanctioned events on behalf of Europe, but I don't think that the BCA should be helping them. If this is what is, indeed, happening, then Thorsten and Mika need to be wearing the red, white, and blue, representing the United States as opposed to their countries' colors. Mika and Thorsten should have gone to this recent WPA-sanctioned tournament on the promoter's wildcard, not the BCA's invite. With their sponsors being members of the BCA WPA committee, it looks "unusual," for lack of a better word, that these players got the BCA invite.

Tournament staff, pool governmental entity members, industry folk, and pool media are in much better shape to attend pool events today than the actual pool players who are supposed to be the main actors, competing in events. There's too many Chiefs and not enough Indians in pool today.

I am not alone in my thinking about this matter on this thread. I have received PMs, green reps, two telephone calls, and even a couple e-mails about this. The BCA and its industry members should be more transparent when making decisions about American professional pool. If they're going under, then let somebody else step up to the plate. If there is a lack of involvement between the BCA and the American professional players, then the BCA should be spending some of that $700,000 on connecting, helping to improve professional pool, especially if they want to continue being the representative entity on these professional players' behalf.

I read somewhere that the next consideration for pocket billiards to be considered for the Olympic games would be in 2022, subject to check. If pool ain't got a shot at the Olympics, what good is it having the WPA? I say let Mark Griffin or Matchroom Sports handle pocket billiards. Maybe it is time to just accept that pool is never going to be an Olympic sport and move on. Who needs the WPA and their rankings? I do wonder if the WPA went south if these members would still continue to attend all the pool events that they do today. They have created a caste system in recent times. Whoever greases their hands gets the sanctioning and their attendence.

I think it's very nice, Mike, that you came in this thread to provide some facts. You keep this forum up to date on all pool-related matters. The BCA could take a tip from AzBilliards on how to conduct themselves, since they are the United States representative to the WPA. There needs to be more transparency. That does not mean they have to come on this forum, but decisions made that affect a professional pool player's future should be handled equitably by the organization that is in charge of professional pool in these United States.

 

[pro9dg]

Thank you for chiming in, Mike, with some factual information about the BCA.

I never expected a BCA member to join the AzBilliards Discussion Forum to explain things, but it sure would be nice if the BCA issued press releases or kept in contact with the pool public to explain their activities as it pertains to professional pool. If they did, like Matchroom Sports and CSI does, there would be nobody questioning why something happened the way it did, after the fact.

This is not the first time in the last 10 years that I have witnessed the BCA in action behind a closed curtain, making decisions, eliminating some professional players from competition over others, with no explanation. It is not fair to those the BCA eliminates.

Of course, I understand if only 4 American players responded to the BCA's cry for advice, then that's on the backs of the American players that they did not act. Maybe if the BCA played a more active role in American professional pool, these players would be more responsive.

I just read the front page of news this morning. AzBilliards manages to keep the pool public abreast of the latest happenings around the world. It was nice to see Fabio Petroni from Italy playing well in the European Straight Pool Championship, a tournament. According to the article, the event is hosted by the European Governing Body for Pool, the European Pocket Billiard Federation (EPBF), and organized by International Billiard Promotion (IBP). Not one American competed in it. I wonder if the EPBF would have granted an American the opportunity to compete in their events, like the BCA did in the now-defunct BCA Open, to include giving two European players an invite to this recent WPA-sanctioned tournament, so they can get their precious WPA ranking points for future WPA-sanctioned events

It is sad that Mika and Thorsten are not able to play in enough EPBF events to gain their ranking in order to go to the WPA-sanctioned events on behalf of Europe, but I don't think that the BCA should be helping them. If this is what is, indeed, happening, then Thorsten and Mike need to be wearing the red, white, and blue, representing the United States as opposed to their countries' colors. Mike and Thorsten should have gone to this recent WPA-sanctioned tournament on the promoter's wildcard, not the BCA's invite. With their sponsors being members of the BCA WPA committee, it looks "unusual," fior lack of a better word, that these players got the BCA invite.

Tournament staff, pool governmental entity members, industry folk, and pool media are in much better shape to attend pool events today than the actual pool players who are supposed to be the main actors, competing in events.

I am not alone in my thinking about this matter on this thread. I have received PMs, green reps, two telephone calls, and even a couple e-mails about this. The BCA and its industry members should be more transparent when making decisions about American professional pool. If they're going under, then let somebody else step up to the plate. If there is a lack of involvement between the BCA and the American professional players, then the BCA should be spending some of that $700,000 on connecting, helping to improve this area.

I read somewhere that the next consideration for pocket billiards to be considered for the Olympic games would be in 2022, subject to check. If pool ain't got a shot at the Olympics, what good is it having the WPA? I say let Mark Griffin or Matchroom Sports handle pocket billiards. Maybe it is time to just accept that pool is never going to be an Olympic sport and move on. Who needs the WPA and their rankings?

I think it's very nice, Mike, that you came in this thread to provide some facts. You keep this forum up to date on all pool-related matters. The BCA could take a tip from AzBilliards on how to conduct themselves, since they are the United States representative to the WPA. There needs to be more transparency. That does not mean they have to come on this forum, but decisions made that affect a professional pool players future need to be done equitably.

Mika was not a BCA pick but was a promoter's wild card.
His appeal against the ban that the EPBF want to impose against him is due to be heard soon. If he is unsuccessful then he could be back in the mire again.

He needs the solution suggested by JB Cases of a Special WPA Player Category if he is to stop his career disintegrating. All he wants to do is practice his chosen profession and for one of the games major players to have to go through this demeans him and the game in general.

Raj Hundal is another player suffering at the hands of the authorities. He wants to represent India, the country where his parents/grandparents were born. But The Indian Federation are insisting that he goes to India on a regular to play low profile local events in order to qualify for WPA events.

At Matchroom's request, he has represented India at their World Cup event. His partner was a bona fide Indian resident, Darminder Singh Lilly.
As a result Lilly was banned from playing the game in his own country. How negative is that. Raj's level of play is way above any thing that India can offer and embracing him into their plans can only help to raise the profile in this massive market.
Another candidate for the above special category.

 

[JAM]

Mika was not a BCA pick but was a promoter's wild card.
His appeal against the ban that the EPBF want to impose against him is due to be heard soon. If he is unsuccessful then he could be back in the mire again.

He needs the solution suggested by JB Cases of a Special WPA Player Category if he is to stop his career disintegrating. All he wants to do is practice his chosen profession and for one of the games major players to have to go through this demeans him and the game in general.

Raj Hundal is another player suffering at the hands of the authorities. He wants to represent India, the country where his parents/grandparents were born. But The Indian Federation are insisting that he goes to India on a regular to play low profile local events in order to qualify for WPA events.

At Matchroom's request, he has represented India at their World Cup event. His partner was a bona fide Indian resident, Darminder Singh Lilly.
As a result Lilly was banned from playing the game in his own country. How negative is that. Raj's level of play is way above any thing that India can offer and embracing him into their plans can only help to raise the profile in this massive market.
Another candidate for the above special category.

It is nice that Mika was given a wildcard, so that he can contine to play pool in the prime of his career. Not all pool players have enjoyed this luxury, at least in the United States. I guess Mika knows people in high places. Good for him.

Poor Raj. That's horrible. He's one of the most nicest players I've ever had the privilege to meet. He is very charming, and I adore his accent. India's loss is Europe's gain, I guess.

I'm not a fan of creating "special categories" for "special players," but if I learned more about it, then I might understand the reasoning better.

There would not be a need for special categories if there was no WPA. Instead, a player can say, "Hey, I won the 2011 Qatar Open." In the end, do you think the winner cares more about the tin cup, the money, or the bragging rights of being a WPA-sanctioned world champion?

Earl Strickland has numerous WPA-sanctioned world championship titles, and he's one of BCA's Hall of Famers. I don't see how it has helped Earl in his career. He's still out there struggling to make ends meet, just like all the rest.

I love the excitement that the Mosconi Cup brings to pool. They don't need the WPA for this event. Though the IPT went under due to unstable platform for growth, it didn't need the WPA, and they poured millions of dollars into pool players' pockets from around the world. In fact, some players today consider the IPT events the *best* they had ever been to. Mike Zuglan's $25,000-added Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour event at the Turning Stone doesn't need WPA sanctioning, and that field of players fills up before the tournament starts each and every time. Who needs this WPA's blue-blooded seal of approval? The only people I see that benefit from the WPA is the WPA. I can't see what they're doing to promote pool on a global scale. I don't read much about them in the news. What are they doing, aside from traveling the world to pool tournaments?

 

[one stroke]

Thanks for the kind words. I wish I was as good a writer as Jerry Forsyth and others. He'd be the *perfect* one to handle this job, but I realize his pool platter is full with other pool responsibilities.

It would be nice to see the BCA try to connect with the American pool public.

well hate to say it but they should go to the APA to connect,, they are the ones who get it , (the business side) ,,partnering up with them could open a whole new world of opportunity..

By the way I am no APA fan by any stretch , but they do have all the cash



1

 

[one stroke]

Thanks for the kind words. I wish I was as good a writer as Jerry Forsyth and others. He'd be the *perfect* one to handle this job, but I realize his pool platter is full with other pool responsibilities.

It would be nice to see the BCA try to connect with the American pool public.

well hate to say it but they should go to the APA to connect,, they are the ones who get it , (the business side) ,,partnering up with them could open a whole new world of opportunity..

By the way I am no APA fan by any stretch , but they do have all the cash
and exposure


1

 

[Dartman]

...
I never expected a BCA member to join the AzBilliards Discussion Forum to explain things, ...

While that may be true I think you can be assured that some of them (board members) are reading or are aware of
what's being said in this thread - altho I doubt any changes will surface. Sending you a pm with some additional thoughts.

 

[azhousepro]

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think Thorsten went as one of the BCA players. If the BCA (or any other federation) can't fill the allotted number of players then they give back the spots they can't fill. I believe Thorsten took a spot that was given back to the WPA by the BCA.

Also keep in mind that the top 16 players on the WPA points list get automatic invites. That is how Mika was getting his invites for a while. But he has not slipped out of the top 16 and that is not available to him anymore.

While I would agree that there is very little chance of pool making it into the olympics in my lifetime, I wonder if the other federations would still get that olympic money if the WPA disbanded. That olympic money goes a long way to help players compete.

Mike

 

[pro9dg]

I may be wrong on this, but I don't think Thorsten went as one of the BCA players. If the BCA (or any other federation) can't fill the allotted number of players then they give back the spots they can't fill. I believe Thorsten took a spot that was given back to the WPA by the BCA.

Also keep in mind that the top 16 players on the WPA points list get automatic invites. That is how Mika was getting his invites for a while. But he has not slipped out of the top 16 and that is not available to him anymore.

While I would agree that there is very little chance of pool making it into the olympics in my lifetime, I wonder if the other federations would still get that olympic money if the WPA disbanded. That olympic money goes a long way to help players compete.

Mike

Mike
You are right in saying that federations hand back unused spots but the player list showed Thorsten under the BCA banner not as a WPA nominee,

But you have a good point about the Olympic money. The Dutch and the Qatari players are among those who have long benefitted financially from this source.

 

[Jerry Forsyth]

I have not studied all of the posts in this thread, but have read enough to feel I need to chirp in here.

I work with both the BCA and the WPA because I want to promote professional pool and they are the only two vehicles available to me to do so. While I do not always agree with the course these two boats may take I still find it more constructive to be on board with an oar in my hand than to be sitting on the shore complaining about the set of the rudder. Some details.

First, how does the BCA invite foreign players sometimes? Easy. We usually get 4-6 weeks to invite players to an event. For example, we just did the invites for the Beijing Open. I sent out emails to the top twenty Americans and waited for replies. A total of four people answered the call for players. Two to say no and two to accept. The BCA had four slots to fill. Johnny Archer and Shane Van Boening are going as they get invites directly from the WPA since they are ranked in the top 16 in the world. After four weeks of inviting players, we had two other players out of the top twenty, Jeremy Sossei and Stevie Moore, who were willing to go. So we still had two slots left. Canada had asked for an extra spot to give to John Morra. So we gave them one. We found out that Mika Immonen had no invite to use to go. Since he is arguably the best player in the world today, I used our last slot to give to him rather than go down our list trying to find someone to go who is not in the top twenty. It is simply the right thing to do. Mika deserves a shot at the event and he brings more attention to the game with his presence than would a mid-tiered American. Thorsten was invited to play in the World 8-Ball when we could find no one on the top of the American rankings to take the slot. Yes, we had an American who at the time was not ranked in the top thirty in the country. And that is past our cut-off point for invitations. We want events to have the best players only so that the events have a chance at succeeding and continuing. If we do not make certain that the best players in the world are represented we are not doing our best for the event or the game.

Recently some articles have been published by Mike Panozzo that contain a few errors. I respect Mike a great deal and I am not at all trying to make light of his positions, however: The WPA did NOT bring in over $30,000 in entry fees at the World 8-Ball event. We brought in about $22,000. $3,000 of this went to cover my airfare and that of Ian Anderson. I was there to do the publicity for the event and to interpret any rules questions and Ian was there to perform all of the ceremonial functions, to negotiate future years with the promoter and to meet with several parties who had traveled there to speak with him about future events. The WPA put $5,000 of the money back in to the prize fund. Then the WPA earmarked another $10,000 of that money to provide for a 'fun' tournament at Star Billiards in Manila. We are seeking a player to run this event for us as we will have no one there. While we are still talking to several about this no one as yet has committed to take this money and hold the event. But the WPA, by offering this money and putting the money into the prize fund in Fujairah, puts more than half of the money collected right back into the pockets of the players from whence it came. After counting the promotional expenses and pre-event costs that the WPA bore, the WPA is financially in the hole for this event. Mike also says that the WPA is not much more than an old boys club who re-elects one another to their same board positions year after year. Just not so. The current board is fairly young. I have been on for about two years. Ivan Lee for less than a year, Ronnie Chua and Andy Chang for less than two years, David Morris and Marcin Krzeminski for less than six months. Again, the facts just do not jive with the statements made. Mike also complains that the BCA did not stick with the Strike Ten group. Well, after pouring a quarter-million dollars down that sinkhole with nothing to show for it, the BCA decided to try something else. I don't blame them. Pouring good money into that hole after the bad would not get the BCA anywhere except into bankruptcy. And as for WPA board members flying around the world in business class at the expense of the players, that is another error. Ian and other board members have a lot of air miles that they can use to upgrade some of their coach class tickets to business class and they may do so if they choose. But here is an example of how seldom this is done. I wanted to use my miles to upgrade my flight to Fujairah. But the upgradable ticket fare was too high. $3,000 vs $1500. So I could not use my miles to upgrade. Instead, I spent 31 hours flying in coach. 17 of those hours I was in a seat that would not recline with two football-player size guys sitting beside me so that I was squeezed against the window. The man in front of me had his seat reclined so that for most of the trip I could not even watch a movie. In Fujairah I was working at the event from the time the first ball was struck until the last ball was made each day. Then I would return to the room and edit photos and write and send out the press releases. 16 hours of work each day with no lunch breaks. We ate Pizza Hut pizza for six straight days for lunch because that was all that was available to us in the time that we had. This is the comfort and glory of traveling for the WPA. For dinner we did enjoy the benefits of the dinner provided to players and staff by Le Meridien Resort. This was an excellent daily perk for the players that somehow has gone unmentioned in the comments concerning the tournament.

Another salvo aimed at the WPA came from a player blog that has been widely quoted on these forums. The problem is this player makes claims that are outright falsehoods. For instance, he claims that Ian Anderson "put a drink cup on a tournament table". He even put a photo out of a cup on a table next to Ian. That cup ( I am standing in that same photo) contained the names of the players. We were doing the draw for the next round and the names were blind-drawn out of that cup into their positions on the draw sheet. Baseless crap like this is why I have held my tongue for so long. It is far too easy to get into a time-wasting pissing match with folks who do not own the facts of their arguments and who themselves are not willing to step up and do anything at all to help the game or the players except state their opinions from behind the comfort of screen names. Not a beneficial use of time.

On the same blog the player unleashes criticisms about an event from some other players. None of the critics performed well in the event. For the last forty years I have heard players who win praise the events and the players who lose criticize those same events. It never changes. And never will. Ask Dennis Orcullo what he thought of the event. And to those who would criticize that group of promoters, well, those promoters have committed to over one million dollars in prize monies for the players and have spent considerable sums putting on qualifiers and doing all of the ancillary work that goes with hosting a World Championship. I look at the body of work done by their critics to improve the fortunes of pro pool and see a large pool of nothing.

One falsehood perpetuated here is that the BCA/WPA committee, the steering committee for pro pool in America, does their work in the dark or without consulting the players on issues. Wrong. The committee puts anything of importance (like which events get to be ranking events) out to a vote of the players and now even has a player, Rodney Morris, on the board.

One critic in this forum advises the the BCA should be "giving attention to pro players". How short the memories. The BCA held the BCA Open and poured millions of dollars into pro pool over the years and watched the entire time as the game sank into obscurity on the pro level. The money was wasted. And so the answer is to waste more? Look, I will assist any organization who wishes to advance the state of professional pool in America or the world. But the only organizations currently in existence that are doing anything at all are the BCA and the WPA and so for now that is where I will concentrate my efforts. When another group comes along with a better path for the game to follow, I will join them and help them. I just wish some of the many critics of these bodies would get out of their chairs and offer to help instead of firing salvos from the sidelines that are incorrect and do irreparable harm to the sport they are claiming to love and defend. It is time for everyone who wants the pro game to survive to stop talking and start doing.

There are no easy answers. Many, many folks come on these forums and say that all the game needs is proper promotion. Give it some flash and the fans will come. Put out an entertaining product and TV will eat it up. Folks, if that were true the IPT would be alive and booming today. The easy answers have been tried and they have failed. The game we love is troubled and the funds are not available to keep it on life support forever. Table sales have plummeted in the US to levels that are a small percentage of what they were only a dozen years ago. The trend is not promising. We will not improve the situation by launching unfounded criticisms at the very few people involved in the game who are actually endeavoring to improve it.

 

[pro9dg]

I have not studied all of the posts in this thread, but have read enough to feel I need to chirp in here.

I work with both the BCA and the WPA because I want to promote professional pool and they are the only two vehicles available to me to do so. While I do not always agree with the course these two boats may take I still find it more constructive to be on board with an oar in my hand than to be sitting on the shore complaining about the set of the rudder. Some details.

First, how does the BCA invite foreign players sometimes? Easy. We usually get 4-6 weeks to invite players to an event. For example, we just did the invites for the Beijing Open. I sent out emails to the top twenty Americans and waited for replies. A total of four people answered the call for players. Two to say no and two to accept. The BCA had four slots to fill. Johnny Archer and Shane Van Boening are going as they get invites directly from the WPA since they are ranked in the top 16 in the world. After four weeks of inviting players, we had two other players out of the top twenty, Jeremy Sossei and Stevie Moore, who were willing to go. So we still had two slots left. Canada had asked for an extra spot to give to John Morra. So we gave them one. We found out that Mika Immonen had no invite to use to go. Since he is arguably the best player in the world today, I used our last slot to give to him rather than go down our list trying to find someone to go who is not in the top twenty. It is simply the right thing to do. Mika deserves a shot at the event and he brings more attention to the game with his presence than would a mid-tiered American. Thorsten was invited to play in the World 8-Ball when we could find no one on the top of the American rankings to take the slot. Yes, we had an American who at the time was not ranked in the top thirty in the country. And that is past our cut-off point for invitations. We want events to have the best players only so that the events have a chance at succeeding and continuing. If we do not make certain that the best players in the world are represented we are not doing our best for the event or the game.

Recently some articles have been published by Mike Panozzo that contain a few errors. I respect Mike a great deal and I am not at all trying to make light of his positions, however: The WPA did NOT bring in over $30,000 in entry fees at the World 8-Ball event. We brought in about $22,000. $3,000 of this went to cover my airfare and that of Ian Anderson. I was there to do the publicity for the event and to interpret any rules questions and Ian was there to perform all of the ceremonial functions, to negotiate future years with the promoter and to meet with several parties who had traveled there to speak with him about future events. The WPA put $5,000 of the money back in to the prize fund. Then the WPA earmarked another $10,000 of that money to provide for a 'fun' tournament at Star Billiards in Manila. We are seeking a player to run this event for us as we will have no one there. While we are still talking to several about this no one as yet has committed to take this money and hold the event. But the WPA, by offering this money and putting the money into the prize fund in Fujairah, puts more than half of the money collected right back into the pockets of the players from whence it came. After counting the promotional expenses and pre-event costs that the WPA bore, the WPA is financially in the hole for this event. Mike also says that the WPA is not much more than an old boys club who re-elects one another to their same board positions year after year. Just not so. The current board is fairly young. I have been on for about two years. Ivan Lee for less than a year, Ronnie Chua and Andy Chang for less than two years, David Morris and Marcin Krzeminski for less than six months. Again, the facts just do not jive with the statements made. Mike also complains that the BCA did not stick with the Strike Ten group. Well, after pouring a quarter-million dollars down that sinkhole with nothing to show for it, the BCA decided to try something else. I don't blame them. Pouring good money into that hole after the bad would not get the BCA anywhere except into bankruptcy. And as for WPA board members flying around the world in business class at the expense of the players, that is another error. Ian and other board members have a lot of air miles that they can use to upgrade some of their coach class tickets to business class and they may do so if they choose. But here is an example of how seldom this is done. I wanted to use my miles to upgrade my flight to Fujairah. But the upgradable ticket fare was too high. $3,000 vs $1500. So I could not use my miles to upgrade. Instead, I spent 31 hours flying in coach. 17 of those hours I was in a seat that would not recline with two football-player size guys sitting beside me so that I was squeezed against the window. The man in front of me had his seat reclined so that for most of the trip I could not even watch a movie. In Fujairah I was working at the event from the time the first ball was struck until the last ball was made each day. Then I would return to the room and edit photos and write and send out the press releases. 16 hours of work each day with no lunch breaks. We ate Pizza Hut pizza for six straight days for lunch because that was all that was available to us in the time that we had. This is the comfort and glory of traveling for the WPA. For dinner we did enjoy the benefits of the dinner provided to players and staff by Le Meridien Resort. This was an excellent daily perk for the players that somehow has gone unmentioned in the comments concerning the tournament.

Another salvo aimed at the WPA came from a player blog that has been widely quoted on these forums. The problem is this player makes claims that are outright falsehoods. For instance, he claims that Ian Anderson "put a drink cup on a tournament table". He even put a photo out of a cup on a table next to Ian. That cup ( I am standing in that same photo) contained the names of the players. We were doing the draw for the next round and the names were blind-drawn out of that cup into their positions on the draw sheet. Baseless crap like this is why I have held my tongue for so long. It is far too easy to get into a time-wasting pissing match with folks who do not own the facts of their arguments and who themselves are not willing to step up and do anything at all to help the game or the players except state their opinions from behind the comfort of screen names. Not a beneficial use of time.

On the same blog the player unleashes criticisms about an event from some other players. None of the critics performed well in the event. For the last forty years I have heard players who win praise the events and the players who lose criticize those same events. It never changes. And never will. Ask Dennis Orcullo what he thought of the event. And to those who would criticize that group of promoters, well, those promoters have committed to over one million dollars in prize monies for the players and have spent considerable sums putting on qualifiers and doing all of the ancillary work that goes with hosting a World Championship. I look at the body of work done by their critics to improve the fortunes of pro pool and see a large pool of nothing.

One falsehood perpetuated here is that the BCA/WPA committee, the steering committee for pro pool in America, does their work in the dark or without consulting the players on issues. Wrong. The committee puts anything of importance (like which events get to be ranking events) out to a vote of the players and now even has a player, Rodney Morris, on the board.

One critic in this forum advises the the BCA should be "giving attention to pro players". How short the memories. The BCA held the BCA Open and poured millions of dollars into pro pool over the years and watched the entire time as the game sank into obscurity on the pro level. The money was wasted. And so the answer is to waste more? Look, I will assist any organization who wishes to advance the state of professional pool in America or the world. But the only organizations currently in existence that are doing anything at all are the BCA and the WPA and so for now that is where I will concentrate my efforts. When another group comes along with a better path for the game to follow, I will join them and help them. I just wish some of the many critics of these bodies would get out of their chairs and offer to help instead of firing salvos from the sidelines that are incorrect and do irreparable harm to the sport they are claiming to love and defend. It is time for everyone who wants the pro game to survive to stop talking and start doing.

There are no easy answers. Many, many folks come on these forums and say that all the game needs is proper promotion. Give it some flash and the fans will come. Put out an entertaining product and TV will eat it up. Folks, if that were true the IPT would be alive and booming today. The easy answers have been tried and they have failed. The game we love is troubled and the funds are not available to keep it on life support forever. Table sales have plummeted in the US to levels that are a small percentage of what they were only a dozen years ago. The trend is not promising. We will not improve the situation by launching unfounded criticisms at the very few people involved in the game who are actually endeavoring to improve it.

Wow!
I think that was a heartfelt reaction from one of the most sincere men in the game. When Jerry speaks you should sit up and listen. I have not been 100% behind the WPA in the past but there is no doubt that they try hard to make things work and their current calendar is pretty full as a result.

Mr Forsyth's workload at this event was massive and when he left he went straight to Virginia for another week long tournament.


Although it did contain a number of valid points, it is noticeable that Marco Tschudi's recent blog criticising the WPA only attracted 10 gestures of support from pro players and only 4 of them were actually at the World 8 Ball event.

I used to believe that the answer to many of the game's problems would be solved with the establishment of a strong players body. But my experiences lately has changed this view because I fear that the players cannot see the wood for the trees. They are too self centred to ever adopt a business model that would work.

Jerry is bound to catch some flack over his explanation about Mika and Thorsten but we would probably all go along with the view that if an event is to succeed then the best players should always be there.

It was around 5.30 in the morning when Jerry put this post together so go back to bed old man. It is not worth losing sleep over this.

 

[JAM]

...One critic in this forum advises the the BCA should be "giving attention to pro players". How short the memories. The BCA held the BCA Open and poured millions of dollars into pro pool over the years and watched the entire time as the game sank into obscurity on the pro level. The money was wasted. And so the answer is to waste more? Look, I will assist any organization who wishes to advance the state of professional pool in America or the world. But the only organizations currently in existence that are doing anything at all are the BCA and the WPA and so for now that is where I will concentrate my efforts. When another group comes along with a better path for the game to follow, I will join them and help them. I just wish some of the many critics of these bodies would get out of their chairs and offer to help instead of firing salvos from the sidelines that are incorrect and do irreparable harm to the sport they are claiming to love and defend. It is time for everyone who wants the pro game to survive to stop talking and start doing.

There are no easy answers. Many, many folks come on these forums and say that all the game needs is proper promotion. Give it some flash and the fans will come. Put out an entertaining product and TV will eat it up. Folks, if that were true the IPT would be alive and booming today. The easy answers have been tried and they have failed. The game we love is troubled and the funds are not available to keep it on life support forever. Table sales have plummeted in the US to levels that are a small percentage of what they were only a dozen years ago. The trend is not promising. We will not improve the situation by launching unfounded criticisms at the very few people involved in the game who are actually endeavoring to improve it.

Thanks for the explanatory post of the WPA and BCA functions and how they affect pocket billiards as a whole, Jerry.

You are correct that there are no easy answers to the dilemma of pool's popularity, but I fail to understand how the BCA has poured millions of dollars into professional pool with their BCA Open. The once-a-year tournament payout for the men was $15,000 first place. I think they raised it to $20,000 for first place the last two BCA Opens before they quit holding them, subject to check.

It is a shame that Rodney Morris' name is not on the BCA website as a member of the BCA WPA committee. How would anybody know he was a member of this committee, aside from you informing the readership of this fact in this thread?

Something I am unclear about is why do Europeans get monies from the Olympic Committee and the United States doesn't. Is what you are saying that there is an entity known as the Olympic Committee that gives money to countries in Europe? I remember reading one time that Niels Feijen was sponsored by The Netherlands' Olympic Committee. Is there an international Olympic Committee giving funds to The Netherlands and not the BCA, i.e., United States?

I understand that for somebody who pours their heart and soul into an endeavor, such as the WPA and BCA, that it is probably a big bummer to read the negativity, whether it's from Mike Panozzo of Billiards Digest or JAM from AzBilliards Discussion Forum. It doesn't matter what the source is when you feel strongly about a mission, especially if you read things that to you are false.

One poster mentioned on this thread that the WPA or the BCA shouldn't feel compelled to post on a message board. It was as if they were saying we're plebians and the WPA is royalty. Maybe it's beneath them to even read the largest pool-related website on the Internet, but they could at least get their message out on AzBilliards Main Page which carries the news. There is quite a large readership here, Jerry, don't you think?

If the WPA *and* the BCA were more forthcoming with their activites in pool, ESPECIALLY press releases, keeping people informed about happenings, it wouldn't seem like everything is done in the dark, behind a closed curtain, a la The Wizard of Oz. Members of the WPA and BCA may feel this is beneath them to have to connect with the pool public, but if this happened, giving an air of transparency, it would remove the shield of unknowns, thereby not allowing imaginations to run wild.

There is a common theme on this forum that if somebody expressed their opinion about a pool happening in the form of criticism, then, by golly, let them step up to the plate and do something themselves if they don't like it; in other words, stop talking and start chalking.

I tried very hard to follow the professional pool tournament trail in the beginning of the 2000s. I did promote pool with a great deal of enthusiasm at one time. I donated money to aspiring pro players to compete in tournaments, went to charity events, gave out promotional material for FREE, paying for it out of my own pocket. I even became a member of pool's fourth estate for a few years. I made many personal sacrifices, and I'm still today trying to get back to where I was before I began that pool journey.

I was met with favoritism to industry members' spnosored players, a politically corrupt UPA men's organization, and a BCA that seemed more interested in industry members' darlings they sponsor, rather than those Americans pros out there playing in two, three, and four tournaments every single month. I may be sitting on the sidelines today, Jerry, behind the protection of my monitor, but I personally invested six figures in professional pool. I spent a great deal of time promoting pool from the sidelines as well as behind the monitor, all for free. I gave it a whirl, but after living out of a suitcase, having my business suffer, experiencing a financial hardship, missing my Sammy dog, I decided to save myself before I lost everything I owned. If there had been a level playing field in pool, things could have been different and much easier for me and mine on the tournament trail.

European players, Mika and Thorsten to be exact, are given special treatment by the BCA because they can't compete in their home countries. I don't think rules should be changed to acommodate them. If they want to wear the red, white, and blue, then that's a different story, but they should have to follow the same rules that all others do. Having the industry members who sponsor these European players on the BCA WPA committee making the decisions gives an impression of special treatment, i.e., favoritism.

The BCA owes it to the United States if they are going to be the representative entity to the WPA for professional pool to do something more. I don't see where they poured millions of dollars into professional pool previously. Of course, maybe if the BCA was more forthcoming via press releases like Matchroom Sports and Mike Griffin's pool organizations, it would be more obvious; in other words, again, transparency.

Thanks for taking the time to relay your thoughts, Jerry. I'm aware that my words are probably offensive to you, but I don't mean them to be. I do have the greatest respect for you.

 

[Marie's husband]

Mr. Forsyth,

I also did not go through every thread on this subject and this is not a personal message to you but, since you are representing the BCA I do have a couple questions and a comment about one incident you talked about in your previouse post.

Now I am not 100 percent sure what the role of the Billiards Congress of America is and wonder if you could maybe explain it to me?

Reading the "history of the BCA" and why it was founded, the Constitution and Bylaws and as much as I could on the website. It seems to me that it has really changed more to make a profit and to help the business industry side more than it is to help the players like it was originally intended back in 1948. I do understand things change, and that was 62 years ago so changes have to happen over that time frame. Sometime around mid 90's or even the 2000 timeframe I can remember the BCA still being actively invlovled with pool players, but I may have that confused with the now BCAPL. Anyways, Am I wrong in thinking that the BCA is more for the pool business world and just sells rulebooks to the regular(non-pro) pool players than it is to establish, organize, and support the general pool player within the USA. I may be interpretting the website/bylaws wrong, but I do not think so because they dont talk about anything about pool players other than professionals can become a category 4 member.


I do have a comment and a solution to one of the incidents and it doesnt require anything but having a policy within the Billiard Congress of America. Now I am thinking that the America is short for United States of Amerca, so if the BCA receives 4 invitations for an event, shouldnt it be a policy to send 4 Americans no matter what the ranking is as long as he or she is a registered Pro under the United States Profession Poolplayers Association(UPA) and a Citizen of the USA. I dont know, but It maybe just me in thinking that it is very disrespectful to all Americans when the Governing body for Pool Players within the United States of America decides to not send an American. Also, why would the BCA even think of giving one to another country just blows my mind.

One last question, in all the bylaws and on the website,,,,it never actually says that the BCA is the governing body, is the BCA the governing body or is there not a governing body within the United States?

Thank You for your time.
Paul

 

[JAM]

...shouldnt it be a policy to send 4 Americans no matter what the ranking is as long as he or she is a registered Pro under the United States Profession Poolplayers Association(UPA) and a Citizen of the USA....

Paul, I can provide an answer to this. There is no more governing body of professional pool for American males now.

At one time, the BCA granted somebody with absolutely no track record the authority to be this governing body of professional pool for the American males, but the organization failed, resulting in this authority being taken away from the UPA.

Currently, the men have no professional organization representing them in the United States. Of course, the lady pros do, and that's the WPBA.

Last year, I read that Johnn Archer, et al., have tried to come with a new organization to represent the American male pros' interests, but I'm not sure what's happening there now. I haven't read much about that in recent times.

 

[Marie's husband]

Paul, I can provide an answer to this. There is no more governing body of professional pool for American males now.

At one time, the BCA granted somebody with absolutely no track record the authority to be this governing body of professional pool for the American males, but the organization failed, resulting in this authority being taken away from the UPA.

Currently, the men have no professional organization representing them in the United States. Of course, the lady pros do, and that's the WPBA.

Last year, I read that Johnn Archer, et al., have tried to come with a new organization to represent the American male pros' interests, but I'm not sure what's happening there now. I haven't read much about that in recent times.

JAM,

Thank you for the reply,

So now I am really confused, what is the UPA that has been established since 2002 and has about 180 welll known pro players on it and I think its ran by Rodney Morriss also? http://www.upatour.com/professional-pool-player.php

I dont think the above link is the same UPA that you are talking about in your reply, but if it is, then I guess I am wrong and thank you for clearing that up for me.