Dog we gotta move on from the Dustin Morris thing. Either that or go and play him a set. I like option 2.
BCA Open team from TAIWAN disqualified?
- Thread starter Shaka
- Start date
Dog we gotta move on from the Dustin Morris thing. Either that or go and play him a set. I like option 2.
Mikey,
Dustin was pretty upset when I beat him for 5/6th. Don't really think over the long haul I would continue to win. Might be interesting. Like your thought though!!! Must be a personal thing between Jumpin Joe and Dustin?
If my memory serves me correctly (there is a reason I'm a Super Senior member), Dustin had just won the APA seven's event for 10K. Bet he thought he was stealing from the BCAPL
.Lyn
Here is my experience. It's been eight years since I was last "qualified" to play in the BCAPL Master's event in Vegas. In those eight years, I played in a variety of events. Once in the Seniors. Once in the Super Seniors. Six times in the Open. Was fortunate in 2008 to finish third in the Open Scotch Doubles event with my playing partner from Rochester. Other than that one event, never once made it to the "big board" on the winners side. My big steal was $200 in the Open a couple of years ago.
During the eight year span, my guess is I invested nearly two thousand dollars a year just to play in the Nationals in May. The amount doesn't cover the necessary trips to Vegas to qualify for the team event with my friends from the LV Cue Club. That's a different subject.
This year, in keeping with my past patterns, I again made it to the last round on the small board and lost. Joked with a friend "got my $200, now I can go play golf! Well, I won my next match. And the next and the next and so on. Wound up 5/6. Was as astonished as my opponents. It was just my day(s)!
Then the $hit started. How could the BCAPL allow me to play in the Open? "You're just too good". "You cheated". Then the crap about the disqualifications started. Wish I'd have never heard about it. I was perfectly happy till then. The joy of my best ever event was drowned in a sea of crap from both my friends and foes alike.
Figure I'm still out at least ten thousand in expenses. Just like every other player who takes the trip to National finals in Vegas. Regardless of sanctioning body! Just like in the casinos, the only one who always wins is the house.
Lyn
Sorry, forgot when CSI took over the BCA leagues, they made me play in the Master's event one year after my experience in the Seniors.
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What about teams - how have you faired and how many repeat members were on your successful teams? Members that were listed on the roster - I don't care if they played or not.
Well watchez, its a fair question. In those last eight years, played with three different teams. One from here in Rochester (our best finish was one round in the money) the second year of CSI operation. Team was Tom Jones from Lyons, NY. Was the team Master player. Now that I think about it, we were moved to the Master division because one of the guys played back in the days of the "triple" elimination format and finished in the top sixty four. He was still listed as a Master and with both of us playing, we were moved. Our captain never asked in advance about him. Remember we didn't win a match in the round robin format.
The second team was comprised of five players either Senior or Super Senior status. We finished in the top sixty four teams. Not high enough to be re-rated. Las Vegas Cue Club (Jerry's) was the team name. At that time, had already been moved to Open player status. The following year, the same guys without me finished higher and were all re-listed as Team Master players and continue on as Advanced players.
The third team was Dick's Pick from the Las Vegas Cue Club. In 2010 we were the "number two" team and finished top thirty two with the cast offs from the "number one" team. This year, our team was was comprised of Rocky Phipps (Advanced), Jim Moore (Open), Edgar Jackson (Open), Jim Milazzo (Open) and myself. Also on the roster but did not play was Jim Murphy (Open) and our sponsor and captain Dick Pickle (Open). As the story goes, we won the hot seat in the Open Mixed Team event only to be beaten twice by a team from Wisconsin. What has changed is all the rest of our team are now Advanced players. I advanced to the Masters because of my finish in the Open Singles. Forgot to mention. No players on this team were part of the 2010 team other than myself and Dick Pickle.
Not sure what will happen next year. My plan is to attempt to put together an Advanced team. May work out. May not. As far as playing in the Masters Singles? Chances are slim at best. I'm crazy but not stupid. Without a Masters Scotch Doubles and Advanced Team to play on, it just isn't worth coming to Vegas. Especially at sixty eight years of age. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! Hope it answered your question.
Lyn
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Lyn - I know you are 68 years old and I pray I make it that long and if so, am in as good of shape as you are as I have no doubts that you are of sound mind and body. Either you are 'mis-remembering' or the BCA website is incorrect.
According to the BCA site, the 2010 team and the 2012 team were the exact same 5 players -- Edgar Jackson, Jimmy Moore, James Murphy, Dick Pickle, and Lyn Wechsler --- and Ray Galaviz was on the team in 2012 and Ricky White was on the team in 2010.
http://www.ctsondemand.com/PlayerSearch.aspx?TeamName=dicks
Well watchez, you would have to take that up with Dick Pickle. During the 2010 event Dan Schneider, Greg Kuhl (Master), myself and Ricky White played for sure. Really don't remember Jim Moore playing on that team but the BCAPL site says he did. Each team was allowed eight players on the roster. It is now ten. When Dick tells me I'm up, I play. Really didn't care who the "subs" for the team were. Only the guys that actually played EVERY round. If Edgar and Jim Murphy were rostered along with Dick, its news to me. Really didn't matter. None of the three ever played. As the team finished 33 - 48, none of our players were moved up. Some played again in 2011. That team did no better. Same 33 - 48.
If I remember correctly, the rules in 2010 were four Open players and one Master / Grand Master were allowed on each team. A total of seven or eight players were allowed on the roster. Three members of the original team must play every round. The other players must come from the same league system (769).
For 2012, the rules changed so only two members of the original team must play every round. Only one Advanced player was allowed. The balance of the team must be from the same league system (769). As virtually every other "quality" league player was already on the Advanced player list for 2012, we formed our team with the "leftovers". Some guys chose to play with other teams. The Best Billiards team was actually another Cue Club team sponsored by Best.
If you think we slipped one past Bill Stock, you better get out the boxing gloves. Only thing I can tell you is what happens when team chemisty kicks in. We actually enjoyed playing with each other. Not sure why this is so important to you. Do you think we cheated? Did we abuse the rules? Did the BCAPL make an error? My preference is reading the rules and working within that framework. To paraphrase the last knight of the crusades, "we chose ... correctly".
Incidentally, through an error in communication between the BCAPL and our league operator, only Ron Allen, Jason Bryan and Ralph Patterson played in the nine ball team event. I was rostered but never played. Would have loved to see the outcome with Ricky and myself also playing. Oh well.
Lyn
I have commented before on this topic but after the final decision has now been made, I still think the guys from Taiwan should have been paid in full.
Bobby Pickle is American and a known Master or Grand Master level player and he was allowed to play in the Open division play it out and win and get paid.
In more recent times 2010 for example a guy called Nuno Santos from Portugal won the Open and got paid. That year a certain player by name of Dustin Gunia finished third in the Open division.
Dustin is a great guy and great player, I put him up there with Glen Atwell who is Grand Master level.
I just want to give you a couple of examples of players who should no way be in the Open division and they didn't sneak in.
The powers that be must have known they were way above the Open level but let them play out the tournament and get paid.
So for these guys from Taiwan that probably don't speak enough English to put up an argument to get paid, it just seems wrong not to pay them.
In my opinion once the tournament is over and the players were allowed to play the whole tournament and finish then they should get paid.
Bobby Pickle is American and a known Master or Grand Master level player and he was allowed to play in the Open division play it out and win and get paid.
In more recent times 2010 for example a guy called Nuno Santos from Portugal won the Open and got paid. That year a certain player by name of Dustin Gunia finished third in the Open division.
Dustin is a great guy and great player, I put him up there with Glen Atwell who is Grand Master level.
I just want to give you a couple of examples of players who should no way be in the Open division and they didn't sneak in.
The powers that be must have known they were way above the Open level but let them play out the tournament and get paid.
So for these guys from Taiwan that probably don't speak enough English to put up an argument to get paid, it just seems wrong not to pay them.
In my opinion once the tournament is over and the players were allowed to play the whole tournament and finish then they should get paid.
That is pretty much the perfect post about exactly how I feel about it as well.
This is not the first year people played in the open division who clearly should not have been in there and it most definately will not be the last either as every single year someone slips into the event who is better then the rest, they sometimes win, and up until now every single time they got paid. The guy who wins the event next time will be shooting better then virtually everyone in the event, the guy who wins the year after that? Same thing.
A guy I know really well got 4th in the 2010 event, which also had Jesse Engle in it, who he beat and who got 7-8th. A few months later Jesse beats Mike Sigel shooting a 1.000 accustats in the US Open and then beats Earl Strickland shooting over a 0.900, sorry but if these Taiwanese guys were too good and should have been removed from the competition due to known ability then someone dropped the ball on Jesse as well. And that is ALWAYS the case, you can go back year by year and see players in that event who are simply too good to be "open" players that get in and always get paid.
For the record I don't think you should be kicking out the Jesse Engel's or taking their winnings after the fact, but given they are playing in these events and shoot pro level pool I think it is idiotic to take the Taiwanese players winnings two years later because they are assumed to be too good. Sure they were great, are they better then beating Mike Sigel 11-1 by shooting a 1.000 in the US Open and then beating Earl Strickland as well great though? Are they so good they are a shoe in against someone like that in a race to 5 on a bar box alternate break?
Every single year in the BCAPL Open there are players that are easily good enough to beat you by winning the coin toss and running out every single one of their breaks. I have lost to 2 different players who have done that to me in Vegas since going down there hill hill with 4 ERO's myself, one from team spain who rest assured would have been tough action for these guys from Taiwan if he won the coin toss.
It was not cool to single these guys out and make an example of them when year after year leading up to this the BCAPL has been mute when it comes to champs in the open and just let it slide and paid people off. It was very inconsistent IMO and that was the main problem. If the BCAPL was always cracking down on this and going "WTF, Bobby Pickle was playing in the open? Well we ain't paying him." then fine, but that has not been the case to date.
The thing that has changed now is there is no way people will not scrutinize the open players in the BCAPL for not only international players but also local ones. The next Jesse Engel or Bobby Pickle in the BCAPL Open is going to cause discussion and controversy and the BCAPL has put them into a position where they will NEED to act or this decision against the Taiwanese is going to become WAY more controversial.
The BCAPL opened up Pandora's box with this one and I am going to guess year after year of discussions on who was in the open and how they are qualified to be in it and why they are getting to keep their winnings are going to make them wish they had left it alone. They have set a new precident and people are going to demand that things are done in a similar fashion from now on.
Lyn -
You can take it up with Dick Pickle. You are the one that posted here, glorifying your victory. You are the one that posted inaccurate facts. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. First paragraph you state "Dick tells me I'm up, I play". Then you end it "Only thing I can tell you is what happens when team chemisty kicks in. We actually enjoyed playing with each other". You enjoyed it so much that you couldn't remember who was on your team? That can only bring the response from me of - Get Real. And it doesn't matter if a sub played or not, they were still listed on the roster.
You actually might be in the clear because I think back in 2010, coming in 33-48 didnt mean you had to break up your team. Can't find the older set of rules online. I just wanted to show that the Las Vegas league has a successful rotation across years.
Gee, how I wish our team had won! Second is the first among those who lose!
As I said, I'm sixty seven. Sure hope your memory is as good as mine when you reach my age. As for the facts, I didn't remember Jim Moore playing in 2010. Didn't pay as much attention. No chemistry. The "chemistry kicks in" was clearly stated about our 2012 team in a different post. You placed it out of context, not me.
"In the clear"? Again I'm asking why you seem so intent on skewering the Cue Club? Yes, the Cue Club has been successful in the BCAPL team events. Go back enough years and you'll find a team that, like ours, finished second. We have an advantage. Most every bar in Vegas has a team in one of many sanctioned and in-house leagues. Most every bar has a couple of small Diamond tables. Thanks to Mark Estes and CSI / BCAPL being the Diamond distributors for the West Coast and located in "Vegas". Please look at www.vegasbilliardsbuzz.com. Most people consider the Cue Club the place to play in Vegas. We see most of the best players through the doors on a regular basis. We have some of the best in Vegas playing in our BCAPL league. Last but not least, BCA and BCAPL have been playing their events in Vegas for way too many years. We live there! We play there! We sleep in our own beds during the tournaments. You and thousands like you come to visit. Whos got an advantage?
I've tried to present information accurate to the best of my ability. Seems you are intent on only "proving" the Cue Club somehow cheats. Guess it is just best to say my conversation with you in this thread is over.
Lyn
Incidentally, Bill Stock can be reached at www.bill@playcsipool.com. Good luck to you.