BCAPL: The Official Final Phenolic Tip Ruling

[Bob Jewett]

Then Why doesn't the WPA ban phenolic tips as well? ...

As I read them, the WPA equipment specs already ban phenolic tips. How do you read them?

Here they are for your convenience:

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..
​

 

[Roger Long]

Seems to me like a solution to a problem, and maybe a way to beat the rule.

It's not a real problem, and no one is trying to "beat the rule" in that case. Besides, what does this whole issue have to do with you? This is a league matter, and as you've told us more than once, you don't play leagues. Or are you just trying to keep things stirred up against the BCAPL?

Roger

 

[Ironman317]

personally, i think it's a step in the right direction to making the sport better.

 

[snipershot]

It's not a real problem, and no one is trying to "beat the rule" in that case. Besides, what does this whole issue have to do with you? This is a league matter, and as you've told us more than once, you don't play leagues. Or are you just trying to keep things stirred up against the BCAPL?

Roger

I dont play in any league either, so does that mean I cant have an opinion on this topic? Im not sticking up for anyone here, and I have read in several other threads where you and some others have made it clear that you do not get along with coco, but your statment about it being a league matter, and implying that if I am not in a BCA league I should not have an opinion is wrong. It is very possible I am misunderstanding you. Im not trying to stir anything here, but maybe you let your personal feelings get in the way of your judgement. If I were to start playing a league, this is all info I may or may not be interested in, but it is a public forum nonetheless.



Joe

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Roger,
You keep asking him if he is trying to 'stir' things up. By now you ought to know that is his whole purpose in this forum.
Coco just likes to comment on any little thing that tickles his fancy, according to him, he doesn't have any first hand experience on anything related to pool except maybe $5 weekly tournaments and One Pocket games with his buddy and ripping on the AZ tournament trail.

Gambling... he has stated he doesn't do this any more and when he did it was just for peanuts. So high dollar bets, he's just guessing. Knowing anything about setting up spots for any game he is probably just guess.

Leagues.... he says he doesn't play on league... that should make his comments about league play and rules just a guess.

He says he and his only friend just play One Pocket, so I guess when he references break cues he's just guessing.

The only fact that Coca has led anyone to believe is that he is an old pool player that is probably a c+ level player at the most that spends most of the time on this forum and a few others, posting these drivel quips and 'stirring things up" to see his name in print.

and for what it is worth, posters need to negative rep him as much as possible to help the unsuspecting poster from thinking coca is a GOOD reference. He is, IMO, NOT.

It's not a real problem, and no one is trying to "beat the rule" in that case. Besides, what does this whole issue have to do with you? This is a league matter, and as you've told us more than once, you don't play leagues. Or are you just trying to keep things stirred up against the BCAPL?

Roger

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

personally, i think it's a step in the right direction to making the sport better.

Personally I like Phenolic, and Tiger Ice Breaker Tip is the NUTS, as you got Hard, and Control. But as someone said the BCAPL has the right to change the rules, or due, or what ever they want too. Plus the players have the right to vote on the new rules with their money, and where they spend it.

 

[petticasey]

So what's next, laser sights for the mental midgets of the game? That's a change isn't it? How about mirror that you can place on the rails so you can see that perfect angle when banking balls...after all, the mirror don't make the shot for you, as you still need to shoot it, but that's a change isn't it? I can just see it now, guy pulls a fold up mirror out of his case, sets it up on the rail to get the perfect reflection of the bank shot...then fires the ball in the pocket...picks up the mirror...just like he would a bridge cue and puts it back, and gets ready for his next shot.

hmmmm....pool has come so far in the last 15 years or so.

Glen

Sh%# don't tell everyone about my mirror technique. Pretty soon i will be finished making my Laser Aligned Mirror Engager (L.A.M.E. for short)

PM if you want one

 

[petticasey]

Don't doubt for a second that someone is not working out a way to build those as we speak.

fear not its on its way

 

[Holly]

Just like jump cues have to be a certain length, it is up to the opponent to have it checked if they feel it is an issue.

My question to Holly/Bill is -

You have stated the rule.

What is the penalty for using a phenolic tip?

Hi Watchez and Everyone,

Sorry I cannot answer your questions. I posted the ruling for Bill late yesterday as he is on his way to Alaska and will be back in a week. My role at CSI is events, marketing, PR, graphical and ad design and mainly the NCS. Rules and regulations are Bill's area.

Thanks,
Holly

 

[JB Cases]

As I read them, the WPA equipment specs already ban phenolic tips. How do you read them?

Here they are for your convenience:

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..
​

I read them then as being unenforceable. Because this sentence is not properly defined and leaves the door open to interpretation;

"The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material "

From Wikipedia on Phenolic Resin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenolic_resin

* Bakelite is made from phenolic resin and wood flour.
* Richlite is made from phenolic resin and paper.
* Novotext is essentially cotton-reinforced Bakelite
* Tufnol is made from phenolic resin and cotton or linen fabric.[2]
* Syndyne phenolic laminates are made from phenolic resin and kraft/cotton paper or cotton fabric.[3]

Seems to me from a layman's perspective that all of these compounds contain fibrous material. As to the definition of pliable I think most folks aren't inclined to think of a leather cue tip as particularly pliable. It takes some forces to deform them when they are properly shaped and burnished.

As to the section about damaging the addressed ball - this is still not proven satisfactorily. Some people run "tests" that show no damage while others claim to be able to damage the ball even with a fully leather untreated tip. So the rule is good on the surface but completely misses the fact that a situation can arise where something that was previously not harmful to cue balls can suddenly, through the introduction of different cue balls be damaging to those new types of cueballs.

This is why there needs to really be some sort of clearinghouse for all these issues, type of tips allowed, ball standards, table construction, etc....

I was at a place that makes softball bats. They showed me how many certifications MUST go on every bat they make. They are required to send bats to many different "governing bodies" in order to obtain compliance certification.

So back to my original point, while you read the WPA's rule as banning phenolic tips, in practice the WPA has in fact allowed them and therefore must feel that they are in compliance with the rule as written. Or else why wouldn't they have amended the rule in the last 15 years to specifically ban phenolic tips as well as treated tips which exhibit the same properties as phenolics?

 

[Roger Long]

I dont play in any league either, so does that mean I cant have an opinion on this topic? Im not sticking up for anyone here, and I have read in several other threads where you and some others have made it clear that you do not get along with coco, but your statment about it being a league matter, and implying that if I am not in a BCA league I should not have an opinion is wrong. It is very possible I am misunderstanding you. Im not trying to stir anything here, but maybe you let your personal feelings get in the way of your judgement. If I were to start playing a league, this is all info I may or may not be interested in, but it is a public forum nonetheless.



Joe

Joe:

I'm not saying you, Coco, or anyone else cannot have an opinion on this or any other matter. You're right, this is a public forum and everyone has a right to express their own opinion. But Coco had already expressed his opinion four other times in this thread before making the comment that I called him on. I think I asked a fair question of Coco. A couple of weeks ago he was ragging on the BCAPL for raising their annual membership fee, and now he is ragging on them for a change in their rules. So why is he so negative towards the BCAPL when he isn't even one of their players? I'm just curious.

But if you'll read the post from Tom In Cincy, I think he pretty much summed up the situation.

Roger

 

[no stroke]

I've never seen a cue ball damaged by a phenolic tip, arramith is just trying to pass the buck to keep from admitting maybe they dont make the best cue balls and simonis is agreeing because they dont like un'skilled players making there felt look bad with poorly executed jump shots.

 

[realkingcobra]

I've never seen a cue ball damaged by a phenolic tip, arramith is just trying to pass the buck to keep from admitting maybe they dont make the best cue balls and simonis is agreeing because they dont like un'skilled players making there felt look bad with poorly executed jump shots.

Digging a little deep there arn't you? Simonis has nothing to do with the cue balls showing up with little cracks in them, that is the cue ball and the cue ball alone. I HAVE seen the cracks in the cue balls, so maybe YOU need to look a little closer and stop trying to blame the ban on Simonis

Glen

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I read them then as being unenforceable. Because this sentence is not properly defined and leaves the door open to interpretation;

"The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material "

From Wikipedia on Phenolic Resin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenolic_resin

* Bakelite is made from phenolic resin and wood flour.
* Richlite is made from phenolic resin and paper.
* Novotext is essentially cotton-reinforced Bakelite
* Tufnol is made from phenolic resin and cotton or linen fabric.[2]
* Syndyne phenolic laminates are made from phenolic resin and kraft/cotton paper or cotton fabric.[3]

Seems to me from a layman's perspective that all of these compounds contain fibrous material. As to the definition of pliable I think most folks aren't inclined to think of a leather cue tip as particularly pliable. It takes some forces to deform them when they are properly shaped and burnished.

As to the section about damaging the addressed ball - this is still not proven satisfactorily. Some people run "tests" that show no damage while others claim to be able to damage the ball even with a fully leather untreated tip. So the rule is good on the surface but completely misses the fact that a situation can arise where something that was previously not harmful to cue balls can suddenly, through the introduction of different cue balls be damaging to those new types of cueballs.

This is why there needs to really be some sort of clearinghouse for all these issues, type of tips allowed, ball standards, table construction, etc....

I was at a place that makes softball bats. They showed me how many certifications MUST go on every bat they make. They are required to send bats to many different "governing bodies" in order to obtain compliance certification.

So back to my original point, while you read the WPA's rule as banning phenolic tips, in practice the WPA has in fact allowed them and therefore must feel that they are in compliance with the rule as written. Or else why wouldn't they have amended the rule in the last 15 years to specifically ban phenolic tips as well as treated tips which exhibit the same properties as phenolics?

More wisdom from John Baton who may in many way have more knowledge of Pool Equipment that one other person on this forum. Why ? For those in Rio Linda California. He work for a big company that makes all kind of pool equipment in Asia.

Think the one point about the Phenolic Tip that few have mentioned is that if a player is not a strong person because of physical strength, size, or physical disabilities like a shoulder injury. Phenolic gives an edge, and a hard break than say with leather.

I have been using a Phenolic tip for over 4 years, it has caused ZERO DAMAGE to my Personal Aramath Measles Ball that is what I use to practice BREAKING.

But I fall into category of a week breaker because of a rotator cuff injury that will always cause me to have a a weakness in my shoulder.

I don't play many tournaments, and when I do they are most 9 ball. Honestly I am sure there are a few players who can break hard enough to damage a cue ball with a Phenolic tip, but IMHO they are a very small percentage of the player's.

Honestly I think Phenolic has been around a long time, like over 5 years, and just now it is causing Cue Ball Damage. That sounds strand to me all of a sudden cue balls are cracking.

Time will tell if the other Pool League Governing Bodys will adopt the same Phenolic Ban. Than it will also be interesting to see if local Bar & Rooms Ban Phenolic!

 

[realkingcobra]

More wisdom from John Baton who may in many way have more knowledge of Pool Equipment that one other person on this forum. Why ? For those in Rio Linda California. He work for a big company that makes all kind of pool equipment in Asia.

Think the one point about the Phenolic Tip that few have mentioned is that if a player is not a strong person because of physical strength, size, or physical disabilities like a shoulder injury. Phenolic gives an edge, and a hard break than say with leather.

I have been using a Phenolic tip for over 4 years, it has caused ZERO DAMAGE to my Personal Aramath Measles Ball that is what I use to practice BREAKING.

But I fall into category of a week breaker because of a rotator cuff injury that will always cause me to have a a weakness in my shoulder.

I don't play many tournaments, and when I do they are most 9 ball. Honestly I am sure there are a few players who can break hard enough to damage a cue ball with a Phenolic tip, but IMHO they are a very small percentage of the player's.

Honestly I think Phenolic has been around a long time, like over 5 years, and just now it is causing Cue Ball Damage. That sounds strand to me all of a sudden cue balls are cracking.

Time will tell if the other Pool League Governing Bodys will adopt the same Phenolic Ban. Than it will also be interesting to see if local Bar & Rooms Ban Phenolic!

Just for your information, cue balls haven't just started getting damaged, they've been damaged for quite a while now, it's just now being brought up because of the players that complain about the non-perfect cue balls when "they" are playing next! So, if breaking so hard is so important then why is Cory Duel still breaking so soft? Is it because more games are won AFTER the break by PLAYING pool and pocketing balls, or won on the BREAK?

Glen

Glen

 

[tatcat2000]

BCAPL Enforcement

Reviewing, the amended BCAPL Equipment Specifications for Cues, paragraph (d), second sentence, now reads:

"The cue tip on break cues must be made of leather with no non-leather materials added to the contacting surface."

Enforcement will be per BCAPL Rule 1.4.2:

"It is a foul if you take a shot with a cue that does not meet BCAPL specifications. The cue must be removed from play."

BCAPL Referees are not going to become "cue tip police". Until otherwise directed, enforcement of the new provision will be the same as for any other equipment issue - a referee will not become involved until summoned to a table. Once called to a table, the referee will examine the equipment, make a ruling, and enforce the penalty if appropriate.

As far as detecting illegal tips, we do not necessarily expect BCAPL referees to become tip experts. For the moment, I can only speak specifically to BCAPL national and regional tournaments. The BCAPL will make every effort to ensure that a person that is extremely knowledgeable regarding the issue is available at all times. If a referee has any doubt as to the legality of a particular tip, the issue will be taken up the chain.

Local enforcement will be more problematical, and will be addressed in the near future. I am sure that we will make an effort to train referees to recognize illegal tips where the evidence is readily apparent. It will obviously be tougher when the evidence is not so readily apparent.

However, rest assured that any attempt to evade the rule intentionally by disguising a tip, or intentionally trying to confuse the issue with irrelevant technicalities, will be treated as a sportsmanship issue, and penalties are likely to be more severe than a simple foul.

As the BCAPL National Office further addresses enforcement issues, or if they designate a more severe penalty than currently provided for in Rule 1.4.2, updates will be provided.

On a side note, an Applied Ruling is being drafted that will, for the purposes of enforcing the new break cue tip restriction, classify any cue used to execute a break shot as a break cue. The effect of the ruling will be that a player cannot skirt the rule by claiming that the cue used for the break shot is a "playing cue" as specified by the definitions, and therefore not subject to the tip restriction.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.

 

[Rich R.]

Does anyone happen to know just how the BCAPL determined that the damage to cue balls was coming from the phenolic tips?
I'm no scientist, but it seems to me that the cue ball ends up hitting the rack a lot harder than the cue tip hits the cue ball.
Also, did they somehow exclude damage done by the many players who launch the cue ball off of the table onto a hard floor?

I've seen cue balls damaged in several ways, but I have never seen one damaged by a phenolic tip.

 

[jmizzo]

Phenolic golf analagy

Isnt this discussion just like saying that you shouldnt be able to use a wedge in golf because it can damage the course and be problematic for the next player?

Also for those who want to ban jump cues, isnt that like banning a putter? Its a tool used for a specific shot, just like a break cue or a bridge to hit a long shot.

Im just curious. I like the idea of a phenolic ferrule with a small small small leather tip on it. The force should go directly through the tip and give about the same results?

IMO anything on a cue should be fair game, but nothing should be able to be added to the table. No mirror or line up aid, or anything like that as it isnt what you are using to shoot.


I too practice alot with a phenolic tip. I will do break drills and jump drills for 4 hours straight and have never ever chipped or cracked a cue ball.

Just my opinion.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

Got game ...?

I have gotten quite a chuckle out of many of the responses to the new BCAPL ruling on Phenolic tips (altho' I'm not the 1st to make a more reasoned comment ... CBI1000 and StuckArt come to mind).

Once your done "pinching a loaf" over this issue, you might consider the following ...

You don't have to toss out your $400 break cue or bust it over 'BCA' Bill Stock's head down in Henderson (altho' you might enjoy the emotional release from doing so) ...

You might choose to take that $25 you won last night sharkin' the rubes down at the local dive bar and have a cue mechanic put a super hard leather (or other legal) tip on your break cue. That way, you don't flatten out your fancy playing cue's tip with your bad ass mojo. (FYI, I'm not a cue mechanic fishin' for clients).

Even if you have a combination phenolic tip/ferrule, a cue mechanic can use a lathe to grind off the tip portion and apply said replacement tip.

I've played a pretty fair game of pool for nearly 40 years now, and in spite of being a skinny old fart pushing 60 years old, most folks I play would kill (or, preferably, swap their Sledgehammer:smile for either my 8 Ball or my 9 Ball break.

BTW, I break with my "playing" cue (adorned with a Tiger Everest medium hard tip, dressed with [OMG, here's another excuse for you to pinch a loaf] Silver Cup Chalk!) and rely on some carefully selected modest spin to drop a ball to two and leave myself either a look at the 1 Ball or mid table shape in 8 Ball.

Can you say, "technique" ... ?

If you want to "buy" your game, try spending some of your lunch money on lessons and practice time. (FYI again, I am a coach, but since one of the luxuries of being in biz for yourself is the option to pick and choose one's clientele AND I choose not to coach whiners, I ain't fishin' for business here either).

Take a look at the game of golf. With the new driver clubheads approaching the size of a small BMW, tons of folks can now hit a drive 280 yards or more (and probably even deeper into the "woods" (pun intended) than ever before!).

What's the result? Tiger Woods now hits driver/wedge to a "long" par 5 as do several other pros and some of the better amateurs. The installed base of courses around the country are now "obsolete" except for producing "stats" that only an idiot would compare to Sam Snead's, or Jack Nicklaus' accomplishments.

Tiger Woods clearly dominates the modern game of golf using this kind of equipment. Take away the gihugic clubheads and guess what, Tiger would still dominate the game of golf, probably even more so, because all of his competitors play by the same rules.

Tiger's got game, character and the mental edge to dominate, not to mention "touch" around the greens, all of which don't rely on equipment.

Hmmmm ... Perhaps the same might be true of billiards. You think Johnny Archer might be able to "spread 'em" without a phenolic tip ...?

I do.

The people with a more legitimate gripe about the new BCAPL ruling include the equipment manufacturers (and to a lesser degree retailers) who have a large investment in selling you your "game".

But even these folks can at least recover some (sorry, the R & D and promotional costs associated with the phenolic tip) are what beancounters like to call "sunk" costs) of their investment by retrofitting their inventory with legal tips.

Lastly, I do indeed cry a river for the poor guy/gal/'combo' who has a Break/Jump 'combo' with a phenolic tip. I guess you're going to have to either get a job ("OMG"?) in order to afford a new break-only cue, have someone make a 2nd shaft with legal break tip for your combo cue or simply ...

Pull up your panties and get some game so you don't need an equipment advantage to earn your lunch money down at the local pub OR in the next BCA event.

Remember, your competition will be "saddled" with the same rules you have to play by ..

Well, it seems that I've run out of apostrophes and parentheses, so I'll guess I'll have to go now.


EnglishProfessor :groucho: aka "capn.curmudgeon" :nanner:

 

[Snapshot9]

Ridiculous ruling

First off, they can not enforce it, and second, if they do, all they will do is to run off league players to some other league that doesn't have that rule.

This will hurt the BCA leagues more than anything.

I would be willing to bet that only 'surface' research was done before they made a ruling that would run so deep into the game.

Phenolic cue tips are 'composites', and no composite is as hard as an object made out of the hardest material in the composite.

Is the G10 Glass tip going to be banned? In my opinion, it should come under fire before phenolic tips ever do.

As to the gentleman that questioned anyone using a phenolic tip on a barbox. Evidently, you have never sustained a shoulder problem, arm problem, or rotator cup problem, and you are not very old, thus your comments. I have had shoulder problems, rotator cup problems in the past, and lost strength in my left arm (I am right handed). Those weren't the deciding factor though. I have always been a hard breaker ("One of the hardest in town") and I am 5'7", about 155 lbs. I have always been strong for my size. The problem came when I was about 57 or 58 and I started to have a decrease in strength, mainly due to aging more than anything else. My breaks did not have the original snap to them as in the past, and I was not making balls on the snap as much as I use to.

I must admit, I purchased a break/jump cue with a phenolic tip (and ferrule) out of curiousity, and for my own selfish reasons. I want to maintain the 'snap' in my break, and getting the action in the balls when they break. I hate, repeat I hate, to see balls out of the rack run up to a pocket after breaking, and stop 1-2 inches short of going in.

What the phenolic tip did for me, mostly, was to pay attention to my breaking technique, and to retrain myself to get all of the 'extra' motions out of my break stroke, and to hit the cue ball consistently in the same spot on the cueball. With a leather tip, you can have 'slop' in your technique and still be able to break the balls. With a phenolic tip, it is much more demanding to have a good breaking technique and form.

Let me be the first to say that this ruling will be rescinded in the end.