Ok No Problem
Best "Affordable" 4th Axis
- Thread starter dunkelcustomcue
- Start date
- Status
Ok No Problem
That's my point exactly. You don't even bother to read responses from other members. Reasonable discussion requires both parties to try to understand what the other is saying, but you couldn't care less about what anyone else says.
And that's fine, but if you don't bother to read another person's posts then it's entirely unreasonable for you to ASSUME they've said something they haven't.
Again, QUOTE ME George. There absolutely are some aspects of your design I find fault with, but I have hardly "done all I can to make your machine look bad". Primarily, I've taken exception to your negative comments about a good product (Clearpath) that you've never even actually seen - let alone taken the time to learn about.
"Your son" had nothing to do with that exchange - how could I possibly know what made you choose your machine names? You FIRST chose to mock Teknic's designation "Stepper Killer", and I thought was fair to point out that one could mock the names YOU chose as well.
Opinions vary.
TW
Thats ok , you have choice to view or say what you like ,
But from people reading this thread its been 2 easyservo set up on Mini Raptor today alone . Which is a bit different as most get the steppers.
I guess i have to thank you for that
But anyways, again you choose what you want and ill choose what i want.
That is more than fair .
The large amount of people that have easyservo, All say what a great performing motor .Thats all i can say . People on here say Clearpath is a great performing motors. So what is the point of going over and over on nothing
Funny how they say any publicity is good publicity. Just so strange
Anyways Chow Sir Wayne .
Is Easy Servo immune to missteps or loss of torque in low RPM's. George?
Does it not move ( 2 degrees, I believe ) like steppers at boot-up ?
George, CNC cue making machine ( for some of the elite makers ) is a no-compromise . Just imagine turning a cylinder and it's .002" undersized and the maker goes nuts b/c of that .002".
Guitar maker or jewelry makes couldn't care less about .002" misstep .
PS
^ Look another stupid picture attachment by Ricky. smh
Last edited:
I sense you're not interested in considering any information that conflicts with the "information" you want to disseminate, George, but in case you're able to learn something new today consider learning this:
The word is not "chow", it's ciao. And I don't even speak Italian.
With that I'll join Royce and "leave it alone".
TW
RBC
Deceased
The Truth is never Subjective!
Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act.
So, Rick, are you saying I'm speaking the truth, or that I'm not speaking the truth?
Royce
I called them, they will be updating the website and said thank you to Joey.
So keep dreaming with the dreamers:
How about just admitting you made a mistake and thanks for catching that??? Oh that's right, those words aren't in your vocabulary.
dave
Lol , there is a reason i write it like that for you and also a reason i call you Sir Wayne.
Unlike you , i wouldn't use cheap shots on a forum.
I read the forum topic posts. The guy called ----- was pretty emotional and threw a lot trash. He did not REALLY understand the difference of easy servo (closed loop stepper) and brushless servos, but tried to act like an expert.
Here are the advantages of ClearPath for CNC router:
• Low noise. But in a CNC router working environment, not many people will even notice that.
• Good acceleration. If right model picked, this is true
• Integrated for no need for power and encoder cables. This is true, but could be also a disadvantage.
Here are the disadvantages:
• Potential patent infringement
Animatics, the integrated servo motor inventor and current market leader, still holds a valid patent for PID control on integrated servo/servo-like controls. Teknic could have potentially violated the law and applied PID control technology on ClearPath. Moog (parent company of Animatics) could sue Teknic and any of ClearPath buyers for Patent infringement.
Back some years ago, Animatics sued QuickSilver Controls (www.quicksilvercontrols.com) for PID implementation in its integrated closed-loop stepper motors. QuickSilver lost the case and was almost bankrupt.
• Cost. To get the same torque as a stepper motor/closed loop stepper motor, a ClearPath needs to be oversized and its cost is much higher.
• Hard to configure. Any servo drive needs to be configured, and will invovle tens (among hundreds of) of parameters. Each machine is different, and will require servo tuning on each axis. That will require expertise, and be pretty hard for non-experience customers. I am not sure whether or not those ClearPath motors have auto-tuning function. But even so, fine tunig is still required and not easy. Stepper based systems like Leadshine easy servo systems (closed loop systems) are pretty easy to adopt with almost no tuning needed.
• Low continuous torque. For a motor like Leadshine 283 oz-in motor, none of ClearPath NEMA 23 models will be able to output the same torque in 100-500 RPM speed range, which is normally the working speed in CNC routers. ---- said he could use ClearPath CPM-SDSK-2321S-ELS in his outer, but his machine could be prettty small and just for hobbysts.
• ClearPath can be potentially unreliable.
This could be also fatal for ClearPath for CNC routers, mills, plasmas…
o Because the drive in a ClearPath is integrated into the motor, over the time vibration from a router could eventual damage the electronical components in the drive module.
o ClearPath is not suitable for harsh working environment (e.g. wet, dusty…). Because it is not IP 65 rated, dust, wood chips and water will eventually damage the drive module in the motor. Sure, Teknic could get it IP 65 protected, but that would add more/significant cost.
I have to admit ClearPath (did not play it before) could be good products and have the potential to get good opportunities in industries like medical, lab automation..., but they are not for CNC! Teknic bloasts CleaPath is good for this, that, “Stepper Killer….”. If they are that good, I don’t understand why Teknic is still a 20+ employee company after 30+ years later since its formation. To be honest, if I was a CNC machine manufacturer and wanted to use servo systems, I would pick ±10VDC control type servo systems over Teknic’s stepper & direction control. Step & direction controls perform much better in stepper motor based control systems because of high motor stiffness.
Here are the advantages of ClearPath for CNC router:
• Low noise. But in a CNC router working environment, not many people will even notice that.
• Good acceleration. If right model picked, this is true
• Integrated for no need for power and encoder cables. This is true, but could be also a disadvantage.
Here are the disadvantages:
• Potential patent infringement
Animatics, the integrated servo motor inventor and current market leader, still holds a valid patent for PID control on integrated servo/servo-like controls. Teknic could have potentially violated the law and applied PID control technology on ClearPath. Moog (parent company of Animatics) could sue Teknic and any of ClearPath buyers for Patent infringement.
Back some years ago, Animatics sued QuickSilver Controls (www.quicksilvercontrols.com) for PID implementation in its integrated closed-loop stepper motors. QuickSilver lost the case and was almost bankrupt.
• Cost. To get the same torque as a stepper motor/closed loop stepper motor, a ClearPath needs to be oversized and its cost is much higher.
• Hard to configure. Any servo drive needs to be configured, and will invovle tens (among hundreds of) of parameters. Each machine is different, and will require servo tuning on each axis. That will require expertise, and be pretty hard for non-experience customers. I am not sure whether or not those ClearPath motors have auto-tuning function. But even so, fine tunig is still required and not easy. Stepper based systems like Leadshine easy servo systems (closed loop systems) are pretty easy to adopt with almost no tuning needed.
• Low continuous torque. For a motor like Leadshine 283 oz-in motor, none of ClearPath NEMA 23 models will be able to output the same torque in 100-500 RPM speed range, which is normally the working speed in CNC routers. ---- said he could use ClearPath CPM-SDSK-2321S-ELS in his outer, but his machine could be prettty small and just for hobbysts.
• ClearPath can be potentially unreliable.
This could be also fatal for ClearPath for CNC routers, mills, plasmas…
o Because the drive in a ClearPath is integrated into the motor, over the time vibration from a router could eventual damage the electronical components in the drive module.
o ClearPath is not suitable for harsh working environment (e.g. wet, dusty…). Because it is not IP 65 rated, dust, wood chips and water will eventually damage the drive module in the motor. Sure, Teknic could get it IP 65 protected, but that would add more/significant cost.
I have to admit ClearPath (did not play it before) could be good products and have the potential to get good opportunities in industries like medical, lab automation..., but they are not for CNC! Teknic bloasts CleaPath is good for this, that, “Stepper Killer….”. If they are that good, I don’t understand why Teknic is still a 20+ employee company after 30+ years later since its formation. To be honest, if I was a CNC machine manufacturer and wanted to use servo systems, I would pick ±10VDC control type servo systems over Teknic’s stepper & direction control. Step & direction controls perform much better in stepper motor based control systems because of high motor stiffness.
http://www.teknic.com/products/clearpath-brushless-dc-servo-motors/
read the title of that page.
brushless DC and brushless AC are basically identical. the difference is the drive method. dc uses a trapeziodal commutation, AC is sinusiodal. Vector (or field orientation etc) is a method of calculating precise timing and applies to both trap and sine commutation methods. they are primarily methods for sensorless control however, and not strictly important in a motor with encoder (although they are used).
sine drive is usually desirable for machine tool servos as its smoother at low speed. even steppers are sine drive as microstepping tries to emulate a sinewave.
RBC
Deceased
Just so everyone is on the same page, George sent me this exact message via PM. The only difference is that he put my name in place of the ----- at the beginning.
George,
I'm assuming that your representing this message as something coming from someone other than yourself. It comes from your account but is not signed, but is certainly written from the point of view of someone other than you. Without any knowledge of who this person is, or how I can communicate directly with him or her, the statement carries little merit. I would love to enter into a conversation with this person. Feel free to have him or her email me directly. PM me if you need my email address.
All I have ever wanted was information on what you recommend. I have asked you many direct simple questions, and most of them have not been answered. I never "threw a lot trash" to you or anyone.
Look, I know what the clearpath motors will do. I know what steppers will do, and I know what many different types of servos will do. What I'm looking for is what the Leadshine will do. I've even asked you to recommend and quote a leadshine system to me, which you have yet to do.
I'm not trying to tell anyone what to use. I'm not trying to tell you what you should like or use. All I'm trying to do is learn. I would like to learn about the system that you have promoted. You offer to sell it to buyers of your machine. Well, I'm a buyer of your machine. Tell me what system you recommend and give me a price (by PM please).
If you're not going to answer any of my questions, or at least recommend a system to me and send me a quote, then please just leave me out of anymore of your discussions. I'm happy to discuss things, but it will be civil and logical, which has not been the case so far.
Respectfully still looking for information
Royce
Last edited:
Royce,
You are speaking the truth concerning your statement about reason and objectivity.
As far as the topic at hand, frankly I don't know WTF is going on as I am not qualified to comment.
All my inlays are 2d on a Cue Monster. If have done some 4th axis on that machine and it works if I go in one rotational direction but gets blurry when the A changes direction. ( acme leadscrew with backlash compensators ) Limitation of the machine but I don't think it was a design criteria to have operators do warping of geometries for 4th axis with that plastic gear system on the A.
Lets face it most CMs that wish to reach for the highest apple on the tree see TW as the gold standard or World # 1 in this area. Since he and Jake both are so happy with Clearpath only a fool would dismiss their comments and offerings.
I am in a very unique and exciting position at this time it seems. I just bought a 18" x48" platform from George and received the Leadshine Steppers, Controller with 6 motor connections and power supply. So I will find out what type of resolution performance these Leadshine components will deliver.
I have both Bobcad and Gibbs and Gibbs does not use Mach 3 so I have my work and a huge gap in my experience curve to march through. The next few months will be very exciting times for me in my shop for sure as I love the stuff.
If I find that the Leadshine does not make the grade to match the Gold Standard Benchmark that TW has set in this craft, the path of my algorithm is clear. Trash the Leadshine and go off for the Clearpath stuff. Easy!
Both Jake and TW have been gracious enough to share their experience here so they are to be commended to that end because they could have shut up and played it close to the vest but they did not. They shared vital information here. Very cool to a CNC sophomore like me.
As for George, he is the dark horse in the race as far as I am concerned. I have developed a relationship with him and I see him as a person who is honest, very talented and great business man. His customer service and communications via email and phone conversations must get a rating of A+. I was in a service business all my life and know how to judge people in this regard. George is a prince in my book.
Leon had purchased a machine from George 15 months ago and I was going to buy one this year. When that sale came up I went off the day before the sale ended as it was the day I found out due to Randy's remarks to the forum.
If Leadshine proves to be a disappointment, I won't be mad at George because he gave me that stuff at cost during the sale. It was an option and I could have purchased any motors or controller I wanted. He was not pressing the the issue for me to buy anything. I choose the Leadshine and asked George to place it on my order. Leon choose the Gecko 540.
Again as a CNC sophomore here in my objective observation on this thread and the back and forth that has occured:
If I have to shitcan the Leadshine for the Clearpath at some point it will be worth the effort. I will still be friends with George. At this point as a fortune teller looking forward I think that Leadshine will perform great in a 2d part and pocket world, it is the 4th axis work with an harmonic A drive that I will be studying for performance and reliability. I never asked George about how it would perform on 4th axis work so it is totally on me if it don't work.
BTW Royce, how could you think that an objectivist like me would ever doubt anyone who quotes something Rand penned in Atlas Shrugged. No brainer!
To me at this point George is a dark horse because this stuff has to be proven for cue making. I get that but I will keep an open mind and have faith in George because sometimes the dark horse wins.
I will be on that firing line concerning this topic of discussion and will report my findings here with pics of my future work in this area as I am sure other will do too.
Good Cue Making,
Rick
Last edited:
Royce , i am not trying to sell you any system?
I tell people when they ask when buying machine about motor choices , its up to them.
Stick with Clearpath its works great for .
i have my reason as why i dont , but you have your reason for using them.
I DONT HAVE A SINGLE PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE USING, IF THEY MAKE MY MACHINE PERFORM BETTER . I COME OUT THE WINNER?
i REALLY DONT KNOW ALL THE FUSS ABOUT WHAT I THINK?
This is just all wasted time for nothing , anyways this is last post on this .I came here to learn all the trick used for making pool cues to design one in all machine, Thats about it. i didnt come here to argue about something i dont really care about So your more than welcome to slam me or my machines without me replying back. . I would like to delete account but i couldn't last time, if anyone knows a mod to remove my account i would really appreciate it and be Thankful
Last edited:
RBC
Deceased
George,
You seem to keep asking for me to post the advantages of clearpath motors. While I don't think this thread is any kind of contest and I don't think posting anything like this will solve anything, I'd be happy to post what I think you want.
Here are the advantages, from my perspective, of the clearpath motors. Keep in mind that I manufacture pool cues, so my perspective is based solely on the needs of what I do.
Clearpath motors provide the following advantages over my current stepper based system.
1. No chance for losing steps. (provided that the signals made it to the control)
2. Resolution that is much better than with my steppers.
3. A quality built product with US based support and the 90 return policy
4. Many choices of motors to better fit my application.
5. Extremely easy to implement. The complete control system is simple and has far fewer components.
I don't currently have a system with clearpath motors on any machines in my shop. I do have 2 motors at the shop waiting for me when I get back. They will go on a new special purpose machine that I built before I left on this 5 week stay in Las Vegas. That machine is currently running very successfully on a Gecko G540. My goal is to make it bullet proof. Remember, I don't run the machines myself, my employees do. Since they don't all posses CNC building skills like I do, I need the machines to be very stable.
I would absolutely love to know more about the leadshine systems. They may be an even better choice for my machines than clearpath. The trouble is that I don't know. The only information I have found on them was suspect of them.
George, I've answered your requests of me to provide the advantages of clearpath motors. Please follow with some answers of my questions.
Royce
You seem to keep asking for me to post the advantages of clearpath motors. While I don't think this thread is any kind of contest and I don't think posting anything like this will solve anything, I'd be happy to post what I think you want.
Here are the advantages, from my perspective, of the clearpath motors. Keep in mind that I manufacture pool cues, so my perspective is based solely on the needs of what I do.
Clearpath motors provide the following advantages over my current stepper based system.
1. No chance for losing steps. (provided that the signals made it to the control)
2. Resolution that is much better than with my steppers.
3. A quality built product with US based support and the 90 return policy
4. Many choices of motors to better fit my application.
5. Extremely easy to implement. The complete control system is simple and has far fewer components.
I don't currently have a system with clearpath motors on any machines in my shop. I do have 2 motors at the shop waiting for me when I get back. They will go on a new special purpose machine that I built before I left on this 5 week stay in Las Vegas. That machine is currently running very successfully on a Gecko G540. My goal is to make it bullet proof. Remember, I don't run the machines myself, my employees do. Since they don't all posses CNC building skills like I do, I need the machines to be very stable.
I would absolutely love to know more about the leadshine systems. They may be an even better choice for my machines than clearpath. The trouble is that I don't know. The only information I have found on them was suspect of them.
George, I've answered your requests of me to provide the advantages of clearpath motors. Please follow with some answers of my questions.
Royce
Do your homework Dave. Are you serious.
Leadshine in a Global manufacturer and has over 100 employees in the R&D department alone with a world wide distribution network.
If they lose their ISO certification, their dead! The website was not updated. All of their customers have the current docs in their vendor certification files ( subject to audit ) or they would not maintain their ISO Cert.
So miss the point like PJ Joey and keep looking silly as usual over non issues. You are a master of missing the point and side tracking the real issues at hand.
Hey Dave jump on a bandwagon going over the cliff!
I thinks this is the first time you quoted me and did not call me a liar. WOW!
Ricky
BTW, Jimbo never banned me and I can go there and post at any time.
RBC
Deceased
George
I'm really sorry that you don't see this but I've never slammed you or your machine. As a matter of fact I've recommended them to many, including Bob Dzuricky!
I've never tried to argue with you about any kind of machines, what control is best, anything.
The only statements you've made that I asked about where ones where either I didn't understand what you were saying and needed clarification, or ones where I was seeking more information about the leadshine system that you were recommending. I sought that information in order to help me to decide if I wanted to try one or not.
Earlier I said that I was leaving this alone. You brought me back in by sending me a PM accusing me of things that were not true. You followed that up by posting that same information here. I came to address that specifically. Now that you've continued to attack me for no reason, I'll go back to where I was before, leaving you alone.
Respectfully
Royce Bunnell
Per your wishes I just put in a private request on your behalf, George. I sincerely hope they can find the time to accommodate you.
Best regards,
TW
- Status