Best "Affordable" 4th Axis

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I've been perusing these thread for a while, am I understand the below properly?:

1. Most cue makers (especially part time ones), and hobbiest cnc owners have traditionally used open loop stepper systems, mainly because servo cost was out of reach. These stepper systems have worked fairly well. The drivers for these steppers have gotten much better over the years. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, open loop stepper driver, stepper motor, simple cabling.

2. Leadshine makes a closed loop stepper system, that solves one of the biggest disadvantages of steppers. This is competitively priced for the hobbiest market. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, closed loop stepper driver, stepper motor, encoder on motor, more complex cabling than #1 above due to encoder cabling.

3. Traditional servo systems have always been the top of the line. They come in brushed and brushless versions. Closed loop feedback of course is the foundation of how they work. Basic requirements per axis are power supply, servo driver, servo motor, encoder on motor, motor power plus encoder cabling. The servo drivers and servo motors individually have usually been 3x or greater than the cost of the stepper counterpart components.

4. Clearpath stepper killers are the same as #3, in a brushless version. But they package the servo driver into the endcap of the motor, resulting in fewer components to buy. Another difference they have is with the cabling. Because the driver is on the motor itself, the 4 wires from the full quadrature encoder are fully contained inside of the motor assembly, instead of having to be run all the way back to the control box of the cnc machine. Basic requirement per axis are power supply, servo motor (with integrated driver), encoder on the motor, motor power cabling and direction cabling . The performance of this is the same as #3, but the price is much closer to #1 than #3, making servo technology in reach of the hobbiest cnc machine owner, or part time cuemaker.

Is all this about right? And if so, we now have at least 2 options (#2 and #4) that are significantly better than #1, but for not a ton more money?

Thanks.

Sorry have to correct you on #2
Easyservo comes with Motor, Driver and encoder. It is a complete unit and 1 power supply runs all motors. Has cabling 3 meters with unit, with option up to 10 meter
Also 110v/220v drivers if wanting to go that route .
 
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Thomas Wayne, I am saying this right here, right now for the very last time: if you are abusive to just one more person, it will result in a long break from the board.
 
I don't understand,why not just stated the benefits from Clearpath and not step around and try saying this saying that.Which have noting to do with what the question is.
We are talking motor kits, nothing more. Why worry about leadshine ? Tell the great technical info on what you think is the best and not what you think other cant.

Well, it becomes clear with the clear path for a few different reasons.

First is the 90 day trial period. Yes I have already tried that and had to return one motor. It was not strong enough to do the job I needed. So question for you George, are you offering the same return policy on your motor kits? I was able to return motor and purchase another without talking to a single person. Did it on line. I did pay for the second motor as I wanted it quickly. The new motor showed up and when they received the other motor I got the credit quickly. I know I did not over buy for my machine.

Second, the resolution of the enhanced encoder is 6,400 pulse count and steps per rotation. This can be changed up or down in software but the motor's smallest step is .06 degrees. This comes in handy for a faster screw. It does cause an issue, if you don't know how to handle it, with mach 3 and the speed limits you hit with the output frequency.

Third, the clearpath has a usb connector on the back of the motor for tuning, diagnostics, and other useful information. Here I believe it maybe possible that the leashine does as well. Please elaborate here George as I am curious.

Fourth, the feedback signal from the motor can be used to halt Mach 3 when there is an issue or a crash. Again I would assume that the leashine are capable of this as well.

Fifth, and this is important, easy integration for any setup that was designed for an actual stepper motor. Since we have paved the way, it should be easier for others to follow.

Come on in the water warm.

Jim.
 
Again , yesterday they were boosting 6400 line encoder that is stock with Clearpath .
What controller would i have to use. Mach3 wont work. It would have to be a fast controller just to take in all that data.

[...]

Again, George, you continue make incorrect statements about Clearpath motors. Mach3 works VERY well with them, producing smooth performance and high-speed rapids that MY clients have raved about.

Really, you should consider NOT spreading negative BS about a product that you don't have any technical knowledge of. My primary problem with you is your false negative statements about Clearpath SDSK motors when you seem to know virtually nothing about them.

TW

 
Well, it becomes clear with the clear path for a few different reasons.

First is the 90 day trial period. Yes I have already tried that and had to return one motor. It was not strong enough to do the job I needed. So question for you George, are you offering the same return policy on your motor kits? I was able to return motor and purchase another without talking to a single person. Did it on line. I did pay for the second motor as I wanted it quickly. The new motor showed up and when they received the other motor I got the credit quickly. I know I did not over buy for my machine.

Second, the resolution of the enhanced encoder is 6,400 pulse count and steps per rotation. This can be changed up or down in software but the motor's smallest step is .06 degrees. This comes in handy for a faster screw. It does cause an issue, if you don't know how to handle it, with mach 3 and the speed limits you hit with the output frequency.

Third, the clearpath has a usb connector on the back of the motor for tuning, diagnostics, and other useful information. Here I believe it maybe possible that the leashine does as well. Please elaborate here George as I am curious.

Fourth, the feedback signal from the motor can be used to halt Mach 3 when there is an issue or a crash. Again I would assume that the leashine are capable of this as well.

Fifth, and this is important, easy integration for any setup that was designed for an actual stepper motor. Since we have paved the way, it should be easier for others to follow.

Come on in the water warm.

Jim.
Awesome warm water , just what i have been waiting for . Can you shed some light on what the gain are using Clearpath.
Don't tell me, tell the people looking for motor kits? i don't know why you telling stuff.
Just tell benefits of BLDC motor

Tell me how it can have more torque then a stepper without any belt reduction.
I am truly amazed by the fact that you don't need reduction and have motor torque than 1133oz stepper for low end . Most cutting is 150 to 300 ipm in heavy cutting.Lots of times less.
Im just in trying to grip the info on this.


Due to combining the features of both brushless servo drives and stepper drives, Leadshine easy servo drives are suitable for both upgrading conventional stepper systems, and replacing brushless servo systems.

Since the ES easy servo system is a stepper motor based system, so it has the advantages of high stiffness at standstill, high torque at starting and low speed, eliminating gear box. The ES adopts sophisticated control algorithms to take advantage of high-torque capability, providing direct-drive of high inertia loads such as flywheels and belt drives. These load inertials may be as large as 100 times the motor inertia while still providing smooth positioning control. Conventional servo systems typically cannot exceed a 10:1 inertial mismatch.

While conventional stepper systems are typically adopted for applicatons of 1,000 RPM or below, Leadshine easy servo drives can easily power control systems at least to 2,000 RPM (even higher) with much fast acceleration, much lower heating , higher torque, no loss of steps, smoother motor movement. In comparison to brushless servo drives, Leadshine easy servo drives can power control systems with much high starting & low-speed torque, no hunting, no overshooting, zero setting time, lower costs, and almost "No Tuning".



Leadshine easy servo drives and matching easy servo motors have been successfully implemented by hundred of OEM clients around the world in tens of industries, such as CNC machineries(routers, laser cutters, milling machines, engravers), medical, robotics, semiconductors, electronics, packaging, lab automation ...


By adopting high resolution encoders, Leadshine easy servo drives apply servo controls on stepper motors, the same mechanism in those expensive brushless servo drives. In a Leadshine easy servo system, shaft position of the stepper motor is fed back to the servo drive in real time. The easy servo drive can then close the position loop and correct any position errors to eliminate loss of steps commonly seen in open-loop stepper motors.

Leadshine easy servo drives inherit favored features of both open loop stepper and brushless servo drives. When combined with easy servo motors (stepper motors with encoders), Leadshine easy servo systems solve the fatal problem “loss of steps” of open loop step systems. Other drawbacks of open loop stepper systems like high motor & drive heating and noise are also significantly improved. At fractional cost of expensive brushless servo systems, Leadshine easy servo system can upgrade your stepper systems to servo like performance with extra low motor heating, quick response & acceleration, and no torque reservation. In comparison to brushless servo systems, Leadshine easy servo systems outperform in much lower cost, no hunting, no overshooting, almost zero settling time, no tuning for most applications. Click the “Main features” tab to see illustration, or click here to read more about what is Leadshine easy servo system.

Currently, Leadshine offers two series of easy servo drives. The ES-D series easy servo drives which take input voltage of 20-80 DC or max 80AC input to power motors from NEMA 23 to 34. Our ES-DH series easy servo drives can take direct 110 / 120 or 220 / 230 AC input to get rid of power supplies and power motors up to NEMA 42 easy servo motors to provide huge torque for big machines.

Due to closed loop control and adoption of advanced control algorithm, the ES series easy systems can always implement 100% torque of the motor, and do not need the huge 50% torque reservation in normal open-loop stepper systems. This feature significantly improves system high speed performance. While open-loop stepper systems are typically adopted in applications under 1,000 rpm, the ES series easy servo systems are ideal for many applications up to 2,000 RPM, sometimes even for 3,000 RPM!



For the case of conventional servo motor systems, there is a considerable delay between the commanding input signals and the resultant motion because of the constant monitor of the current position, necessitating a waiting time until it settles, called settle time.


Since the ES easy servo is a stepper motor based system, it operates in synchronism with command pulses and has no hunting problem. When it stops, its position is completely stable and does not fluctuate. It is a great feature of the ES when rapid motions with a short distance are required and it is ideal for applications such as bonding and vision systems in which hunting would be a problem.

Since the ES easy servo system is a stepper motor based system, so it has the advantages of high stiffness at standstill, high torque at starting and low speed, eliminating gear box. The ES adopts sophisticated control algorithms to take advantage of high-torque capability, providing direct-drive of high inertia loads such as flywheels and belt drives. These load inertials may be as large as 100 times the motor inertia while still providing smooth positioning control. Conventional servo systems typically cannot exceed a 10:1 inertial mismatch.

Unlike a servo system which usually needs the engineer to spend a long time to learn how to use tuning tools and tune the gains for a satisfying performance, the ES series easy servo is ready for operation within a very short period of time. Set the microstep resolution and operating current, then the system is ready and offers high performance approaching to a fine tuned servo. Save time and save cost.
 


Again, George, you continue make incorrect statements about Clearpath motors. Mach3 works VERY well with them, producing smooth performance and high-speed rapids that MY clients have raved about.

Really, you should consider NOT spreading negative BS about a product that you don't have any technical knowledge of. My primary problem with you is your false negative statements about Clearpath SDSK motors when you seem to know virtually nothing about them.

TW


Hello Sir Wayne
I never said it is Clearpath its self with problem.
I asked about yesterdays post when boosting 6400 line encoder, what controller card would i need? Thats all i was asking
Mach3 is max 100hz, what controller card do you need?
If any ONE IS bs-ing LOOK AT YOUR POST
 
Again , why worry about me and Leadshine .
I have zero problem with people using Clearpath and more than sure Leadshine does not have a problem with them.

Why not just point out the gains you get.
 
Never mind Clearpath.
This is BLDC servo or AC servo of any brand
They all have very poor low end torque
Pool cues might not have a problem without it or high speed engraving.
But most machine are for heavy cutting of some kind.

Every servo does need reduction to get the low end torque
 
Never mind Clearpath.
This is BLDC servo or AC servo of any brand
They all have very poor low end torque
Pool cues might not have a problem without it or high speed engraving.
But most machine are for heavy cutting of some kind.

Every servo does need reduction to get the low end torque

I have a few very simple questions for you , George.

1) how many Clearpath motors have you EVER held in your hand?

2) How many Clearpath motors have you ever mounted to a machine, wired up, and run?

3) How many Teknic engineers have you discussed the Clearpath motors with in person?

I very much doubt you'll answer, but if you DO and the answer is ZERO (as I suspect) then you really should stop talking like you know anything about them. Several experienced people on this forum have tried to inform you about them, but you choose to ignore their statements and instead offer incorrect information as if it were fact. On the subject of Clearpath motors you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Posting false, negative information about another brand is a very poor way to try to sell your own products, as Jake (and others) have tried to explain - but that lesson does not appear to sink in.

TW

 


I have a few very simple questions for you , George.

1) how many Clearpath motors have you EVER held in your hand?

2) How many Clearpath motors have you ever mounted to a machine, wired up, and run?

3) How many Teknic engineers have you discussed the Clearpath motors with in person?

I very much doubt you'll answer, but if you DO and the answer is ZERO (as I suspect) then you really should stop talking like you know anything about them. Several experienced people on this forum have tried to inform you about them, but you choose to ignore their statements and instead offer incorrect information as if it were fact. On the subject of Clearpath motors you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Posting false, negative information about another brand is a very poor way to try to sell your own products, as Jake (and others) have tried to explain - but that lesson does not appear to sink in.

TW


#1 No , what holding in your hand going to prove?
#2 none, they are not for my application,unless you use reduction
#3 I get Teknic motor with Centroid controller i sell , so yes

I am not trying to sell anything, i don't sell motors or any other product without machine .

Sir Wayne, will you need reduction with BLDC motor ?
 
I have a few very simple questions for you , Sir Wayne.

1) how many Leadshine motors have you EVER held in your hand?

2) How many Leadshine motors have you ever mounted to a machine, wired up, and run?

3) How many Leadshine engineers have you discussed the easyservo or stepper motors with in person?

I very much doubt you'll answer, but if you DO and the answer is ZERO (as I suspect) then you really should stop talking like you know anything about them. On the subject of any motors you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Posting false, negative information is not right Sir Wayne
 
Awesome warm water , just what i have been waiting for . Can you shed some light on what the gain are using Clearpath.
Don't tell me, tell the people looking for motor kits? i don't know why you telling stuff.
Just tell benefits of BLDC motor

Tell me how it can have more torque then a stepper without any belt reduction.
I am truly amazed by the fact that you don't need reduction and have motor torque than 1133oz stepper for low end . Most cutting is 150 to 300 ipm in heavy cutting.Lots of times less.
Im just in trying to grip the info on this.

First off the clearpath is not a BLDC. It is actually State-of-the-art, closed-loop, AC vector servo gives you smooth, quiet and repeatable motion and control of position, speed & torque in any direction.

Cool, I can copy and past too.

Ok, it is hard to compare apples and oranges. Best thing to do is look at the torque curves based on speed. I am confused when looking at the leadshine manuals as it is in reference to a particular torque setting of 40% holding power. I could give a crap about holding power. Looks like top end of the leadshine is about 2,500 rpm. That Ok as it meets most applications. As you know torque falls off as a stepper moves faster. The same holds true of course for most of the clearpath motors. If you check some of the torque curves on there web site some hold torque up to close to full speed at 5,000 rpm.

To me the week link in the leadshine is actually how many pulses you can send it from mach. Looks like you are limited to around 2,400 rpm because of this. The step pulses need to be 2.5 micro seconds long and 2.5 micro seconds apart from each other. The clear path only needs 1 micro second. You may want to point this out to your customers George so the can properly setup mach 3 to handle this. Maybe you already have. I have not been concerned with this until recently. This information would be important if you do not want lost steps. Did I say lost steps on a closed loop system. Yep, I did. Having a closed loop system is actually only half the battle. No good to have a good motor system and a bad engine.

You know what we need to do? Lets hook up a clearpath motor shaft directly to a leadshine. The motors would need to be rated at the same torque. Then slowly increase speeds on both in the opposite direction and see how the motors perform. Seems to me that the motor that alarms out first wood loose. How could we do this in a non biased way?

Jim.
 
Why you guys trying to sell me on Clearpath i don't really know .It don't matter what a person uses.
They can use any motor they like, from clearpath to leadshine or even any ebay motor, to me it totally don't matter
You don't need my stamp of approval? I truly don't understand , what problem is there .
Why you preaching to me.
But this is first place i have ever heard you don't need reduction on any servo
 
First off the clearpath is not a BLDC. It is actually State-of-the-art, closed-loop, AC vector servo gives you smooth, quiet and repeatable motion and control of position, speed & torque in any direction.

Cool, I can copy and past too.

Ok, it is hard to compare apples and oranges. Best thing to do is look at the torque curves based on speed. I am confused when looking at the leadshine manuals as it is in reference to a particular torque setting of 40% holding power. I could give a crap about holding power. Looks like top end of the leadshine is about 2,500 rpm. That Ok as it meets most applications. As you know torque falls off as a stepper moves faster. The same holds true of course for most of the clearpath motors. If you check some of the torque curves on there web site some hold torque up to close to full speed at 5,000 rpm.

To me the week link in the leadshine is actually how many pulses you can send it from mach. Looks like you are limited to around 2,400 rpm because of this. The step pulses need to be 2.5 micro seconds long and 2.5 micro seconds apart from each other. The clear path only needs 1 micro second. You may want to point this out to your customers George so the can properly setup mach 3 to handle this. Maybe you already have. I have not been concerned with this until recently. This information would be important if you do not want lost steps. Did I say lost steps on a closed loop system. Yep, I did. Having a closed loop system is actually only half the battle. No good to have a good motor system and a bad engine.

You know what we need to do? Lets hook up a clearpath motor shaft directly to a leadshine. The motors would need to be rated at the same torque. Then slowly increase speeds on both in the opposite direction and see how the motors perform. Seems to me that the motor that alarms out first wood loose. How could we do this in a non biased way?

Jim.

I'll provide both sets!

Jake < has a few extras
 
First off the clearpath is not a BLDC. It is actually State-of-the-art, closed-loop, AC vector servo gives you smooth, quiet and repeatable motion and control of position, speed & torque in any direction.

Cool, I can copy and past too.

Ok, it is hard to compare apples and oranges. Best thing to do is look at the torque curves based on speed. I am confused when looking at the leadshine manuals as it is in reference to a particular torque setting of 40% holding power. I could give a crap about holding power. Looks like top end of the leadshine is about 2,500 rpm. That Ok as it meets most applications. As you know torque falls off as a stepper moves faster. The same holds true of course for most of the clearpath motors. If you check some of the torque curves on there web site some hold torque up to close to full speed at 5,000 rpm.

To me the week link in the leadshine is actually how many pulses you can send it from mach. Looks like you are limited to around 2,400 rpm because of this. The step pulses need to be 2.5 micro seconds long and 2.5 micro seconds apart from each other. The clear path only needs 1 micro second. You may want to point this out to your customers George so the can properly setup mach 3 to handle this. Maybe you already have. I have not been concerned with this until recently. This information would be important if you do not want lost steps. Did I say lost steps on a closed loop system. Yep, I did. Having a closed loop system is actually only half the battle. No good to have a good motor system and a bad engine.

You know what we need to do? Lets hook up a clearpath motor shaft directly to a leadshine. The motors would need to be rated at the same torque. Then slowly increase speeds on both in the opposite direction and see how the motors perform. Seems to me that the motor that alarms out first wood loose. How could we do this in a non biased way?

Jim.

See now your giving some great info, can you tell me more about state of the art ac vector to BLDC

The VFD i sell are vector, so that's a good thing
 
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Really? Who is going to spend short money on easy servos and then go spend literally 10x the money for a motion controller that will support feedback? Is this external motion controller going to talk to mach or should they go ahead and buy a Fagor 8055 or Fanuc or Siemens controller?

Your recomendation as stated above would require at the cheapest level a Hicon Integra or Mach Motion Apollo 3. Even then, I'm not sure it would be fully closed unless Mach has some kind of algorithm on the back end to know what to do with the information its recieving. Plus.....theres nothing easy about it after you get into this neighborhood.

George, I'm quoting myself in case you missed these questions. Very simple questions for someone with your knowledge obviously. Of course you could just share what hardware you recommend when you sell easy servos for use with closed loop motion card
 
I have a few very simple questions for you , Sir Wayne.

1) how many Leadshine motors have you EVER held in your hand?

2) How many Leadshine motors have you ever mounted to a machine, wired up, and run?

3) How many Leadshine engineers have you discussed the easyservo or stepper motors with in person?

I very much doubt you'll answer, but if you DO and the answer is ZERO (as I suspect) then you really should stop talking like you know anything about them. On the subject of any motors you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Posting false, negative information is not right Sir Wayne

George - please quote me where I have EVER criticized any properties of the Leadshine motors. EVER..

I haven't. But you HAVE criticized Clearpath SDSK motors that you clearly know nothing about. I know it, Royce knows it, Jake knows it. We've all called you on it but you continue to make negative comments about something you know nothing about.

I haven't done ANY of that with Leadshine motors... so other than trying to antagonize, what's your point?

TW

 
But this is first place i have ever heard you don't need reduction on any servo

Correction, you just don't know any better

I'll bet at least half or more of all industrial machines sold today are without mechanical gear reduction
 


George - please quote me where I have EVER criticized any properties of the Leadshine motors. EVER..

I haven't. But you HAVE criticized Clearpath SDSK motors that you clearly know nothing about. I know it, Royce knows it, Jake knows it. We've all called you on it but you continue to make negative comments about something you know nothing about.

I haven't done ANY of that with Leadshine motors... so other than trying to antagonize, what's your point?

TW


Hello Sir Wayne, you have said a lot, if you want read your post, But i don't really care.
You have tried to do all you can to make my machine look bad. Because my son pick the names for my machines its a laugh for you, that not a problem. If i dont bow to what is being said , the target like a said a while ago will be the machines like it has been lately That is your choice .It is a free world , I have mine and you have yours. That's why its so great to live in a free country. I have never once said a single thing about anything you do .For one i don't really care what you do or what you say, it don't matter. Your choice is your choice. My choice is my choice.
Again Sir Wayne, it don't matter to me what motor kits some one uses.You make your great cues and ill make my great machines .
I build best machines around for the best value and that my goal.Not motor kits .That's it plan and simple
 
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