Best Hustle

pool 1 - dumpers 0

12310bch said:
Our response to the OP , overwhelmingly ,leads me to believe that basically, there is a point ,morally ,that we pool players will not pass. That is encouraging.:smile:
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good post - i feel better already
 
Dudley said:
I in no way am defending him. Just hoping he might learn a lesson. But if I had a friend who I knew did something like this- he would no longer be my friend. I was just trying to give the guy an opportunity to learn something.

This was a cold thing he did and most who do this don't talk about it on a public forum which is why I think he might just be misguided and oblivious to gambling code as a whole.

I agree his responses to what has been said have been pretty weak. It takes real character to step up and fix things when you've done something wrong.

Dudley
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Dudley,
I didn't mean for the post to be negative towards you. I was just simply stating that there was no defense for his action.
 
Deadeye said:
Well Mr Wilson I did make a thread announcing this. Just wanted to change my screen name. Is that a crime?

I have been doing alot of thinking and some of you have brought up some good points which I never considered. My only thought was for myself and this guy was a dumb ass for giving money to one individual to bet against a friend of his that are well known for hanging around each other.
My actions were totally self centered. Nothing I can do about it now and I wouldnt do it again. So I am sorry to the billiard world for doing this. Would I be sorry if this type of response was happening? Probably not. I wouldn't have thought about these new point of views. We have all done something in our past that we regret
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Deadeye, I'm glad you came to a realization that what you and your friend did to the bar-owner was not a hustle but thievery, your prolly still alittle green but you did admit your "fault", and that means alot, hope you have learned alot from all this!


David Harcrow
 
another alternative

Devoted a bit of thought to this .....not too much.....thinking that the other guy....returns to the bar.....hands the owner 50 clams, explains and apologizes......perhaps HE would have a backer......jus sayin
 
Deadeye "four finger"
why? Because things like that, people should get the chop
 
Permissable dishonesty?

I know I’m a little late jumping in here, but there are a few things I think should be pointed out. I don’t like the move of dumping on a backer more than anyone else, but it seems to me there are a lot of traditions in the pool community that are accepted that are just as dishonest. Essentially the guy didn’t divulge some information and intentionally dogged it. People brag on this forum all the time about laying down to get a game or get the bet right and then stepping it up. It’s the same thing. You’re misrepresenting information and playing poorly intentionally. In tournaments from the professional level to local bar tournaments, business is always being done. If you split with someone and meet early in the draw and let one player advance for whatever reason, if someone you don’t know is betting on the outcome, they’re gonna get hurt financially a little.
Here’s an example of something I’ve done, that a lot of guys do that I don’t really feel is wrong, but is similar. I was playing in a tournament with a Calcutta with one of my roommates, with another friend along to watch. Our non-playing buddy got me in the Calcutta and someone we didn’t know outbid us for my other friend. I ended up playing my roommate in the finals and we were splitting the prize money anyway. Is my buddy supposed to play his heart out and try to run over me, when there is nothing to be gained except letting a stranger get some money, costing us hundreds?
I’ve talked to some old timers who were in even harder areas back in the 60’s and 70’s like drugs and pimping and they told me it was a different mentality in their area. If a guy straight up conned them for their money, they said, okay I got played and I’ll play you next time. They said it’s crazy today, that if someone gets a little out of line in the industry, they just get blown away. I’m not saying people didn’t get killed back then, I know they did, but it doesn’t have to be that hardcore over everything.
One more point to bring up. The old time legendary hustles that everyone on here so admires, many of which I myself think are great stories, are certainly no better than stealing except they took a little more thinking than using a gun. Titanic Thompson’s legendary bets like betting on the distance to a sign post and having moved the sign the night before, or coming across a large boulder on a road trip and betting someone on the weight, when he had been by earlier and pre-weighed it, are no less dishonest and just as much a lock on the money.
It is strange to me the different standards. I have them myself. I have never dumped on a backer or layed down to get the bet right, but have split in tournament and not tried to win in certain instances among other things. I don’t know exactly where the line is, but I have my own and it’s just interesting to me to see what some people think is good dishonesty for profit and bad dishonesty for profit.
 
stupid is, what stupid does,

Deadeye said:
Ok hold on!
1) I only knew the guy by name
2) If he is stupid enough to out money on me against my friend and he dont even know me then he should lose his money.

Maybe hustle was the wrong term
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Dude! Just shut the f$#K up! Your not making it any better for yourself!
 
Fatboy said:
Good to see you Russ, hope you been good.:smile::smile:

this isnt directed at you Russ, below is my opinion-to be clear.:smile:

Like I said in this thread befor, its just best left not talked about. There is a lot of "Biz" in pool, anyone who thinks otherwise just hasnt been around very long or been out and about. Like the Derby for example, I've been tossed off by a guy I put in the box there one time, big deal. It happens, the best situation is knowing about the "Biz" and getting rail bets down-easier said than done, information is great.

There is a fine line between a hustle and fraud, the net result is the same. Its just word games. The OP was just blatent about chopping up the bar tender, never chop up the house man! Get the house man on your team hire him and you'll get protection as well as action, unless the house man is double steering you.

While I dont agree with what the OP did, I dont think its as bad as he made it sound. I wasnt there so I can only go by his post.

When anyone of us as people aquire money, someone lost it. (unless they are counterfitters:wink:). With all $$$ transactions there is gain and loss. You can justify your gain if your a barbarber and cut someones hair for $20. The barbarber gains $20, the customer lost $20. Fair deal. Thats in the service industry. If you trade merchandice for $$$ you are a merchant and every move is done with a profit motive, the buyer is the loser of the $$$ but gains the property. All this is nice and warm fuzzy, PC, idealistic facts.

It gets henky when someone aquires $$$ and the other person gets nothing for it(perhaps a life lession). Look at the tragic death/murder of Mike last week, It appears that robbery was the motive. Or drug $$$, desperate people do desperate unthinkable things as in that case. That is the worst possible conduct anyone can commit. He robbed Mike of all he was and everything he was going to be. RIP Mike.

Down a notch from the most extreme circumstance as noted above, is figuring out how to extract $$$ from someone(or a business) and provide little or nothing in return. If you sell your car and take all the $$$ and go bet it on a hand of 21 and lose the casino just won your car and you got NOTHING in return. If someone steals your car your in the exact same spot. The only difference is one act was against your will, the other was your plan. One is illegal the other is legal, the results are the same.

The perception of the method of aquireing $$$ is all i'm talking about. So when you match up with someone playing $100 sets any sane person thinks they have the best of it, both sides do thats why its called gambling. When the set is over and the score is 11-9 did the winner earn the $$$? what if it was 11-0? did he rob the guy? The results are the same. Its our perception that is different nothing else. If you win 11-0 and the guy calls tails for a 2nd set, do you say "you cant win I'll give you the 5 ball"? Or are you happy because you KNOW your going to win $100 more. What would you do in that spot? You do whats best for yourself. We all do. When its cold outside we come inside to a warm room. Its human nature.


there is a very blurry line between hustling and fraud. And in the modern era on mincing up words trying to make our selves look PC and all that BS, it all boils down to the same result. Some will win others will lose-buyer beware. You have to have a con in this land of milk and honey or your just not going to survive, unless we become a communist nation.:mad:
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A good hustle is like a battle. You try to get the upperhand and the upper ground in order to maximize your potential to win. All contestants are "soldiers" and at least are aware of the consequences of what they are doing. All war is based on the art of deception, and in that arena, it is acceptable behavior because you are trying to destroy your opponent. You're not making friends, you're trying to vanquish your opponent before he does the same to you. If both parties are battle hardened players with similiar skills, then it's a matter of negotiating weight, type of games, time limits, etc., much like looking for that upper ground advantage.

What I hate are these kinds of games where all players aren't necessarily contestants. That to me, is like trained soldiers concentrating on massacring civilians. In my opinion, taking the bartender's money was as easy as an armed soldier killing a civilian, but is that really OK?

Are we really so self centered that we think it's alright to bilk old people out of their money, just because it's easy? That might sound alright to some, but I have an aged mother who has to live on 60% of the money she worked so hard for so many years for her retirement because of a thief named Bernie Madoff. She has no capability to work to add that money back. She just has to live the rest of her life making due with what she has left, knowing that she was robbed by a person that she thought was looking out for her best interests. She wasn't a contestant in the game.

I just hope there is karma for these people. I sincerely wish horrible, festering boils on the Madoffs and Trudeaus of the world, and they can try and justify their positions all day long, but they know what they are and so do I.

Steve Feld
Phoenix, AZ
 
Godfather said:
I know I’m a little late jumping in here, but there are a few things I think should be pointed out. I don’t like the move of dumping on a backer more than anyone else, but it seems to me there are a lot of traditions in the pool community that are accepted that are just as dishonest. Essentially the guy didn’t divulge some information and intentionally dogged it. People brag on this forum all the time about laying down to get a game or get the bet right and then stepping it up. It’s the same thing. You’re misrepresenting information and playing poorly intentionally. In tournaments from the professional level to local bar tournaments, business is always being done. If you split with someone and meet early in the draw and let one player advance for whatever reason, if someone you don’t know is betting on the outcome, they’re gonna get hurt financially a little.
Here’s an example of something I’ve done, that a lot of guys do that I don’t really feel is wrong, but is similar. I was playing in a tournament with a Calcutta with one of my roommates, with another friend along to watch. Our non-playing buddy got me in the Calcutta and someone we didn’t know outbid us for my other friend. I ended up playing my roommate in the finals and we were splitting the prize money anyway. Is my buddy supposed to play his heart out and try to run over me, when there is nothing to be gained except letting a stranger get some money, costing us hundreds?
I’ve talked to some old timers who were in even harder areas back in the 60’s and 70’s like drugs and pimping and they told me it was a different mentality in their area. If a guy straight up conned them for their money, they said, okay I got played and I’ll play you next time. They said it’s crazy today, that if someone gets a little out of line in the industry, they just get blown away. I’m not saying people didn’t get killed back then, I know they did, but it doesn’t have to be that hardcore over everything.
One more point to bring up. The old time legendary hustles that everyone on here so admires, many of which I myself think are great stories, are certainly no better than stealing except they took a little more thinking than using a gun. Titanic Thompson’s legendary bets like betting on the distance to a sign post and having moved the sign the night before, or coming across a large boulder on a road trip and betting someone on the weight, when he had been by earlier and pre-weighed it, are no less dishonest and just as much a lock on the money.
It is strange to me the different standards. I have them myself. I have never dumped on a backer or layed down to get the bet right, but have split in tournament and not tried to win in certain instances among other things. I don’t know exactly where the line is, but I have my own and it’s just interesting to me to see what some people think is good dishonesty for profit and bad dishonesty for profit.
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I think you missing the point or never did the road thing playing pool for a living of sorts...the old saying honor amoungst thieves & Don't shit where you eat comes to mind in this situation....Husting use to be a art form back in the day...and the ones that got hustled didn't mind it so much cuz that's how they got hustled because they thought they were the ones doing the hustling...so it use to be like a big game...so there is a big difference between hustling & dumping which boils down to ones character as a person...JMO on the matter..
 
Deadeye said:
Well there is no way to right the situation. The bar is closed down for some time and the owner hasnt been seen for awhile(years)
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Well when the bartender /owner is backing your kind of action , Then its no wonder why he had to close the place down!

You probably took the mans last hundred dollars! :mad:
 
put simply

Steve,

Put simply, there is a lot of difference between being a wolf among wolves and a wolf among sheep.

Hu



Hunter said:
A good hustle is like a battle. You try to get the upperhand and the upper ground in order to maximize your potential to win. All contestants are "soldiers" and at least are aware of the consequences of what they are doing. All war is based on the art of deception, and in that arena, it is acceptable behavior because you are trying to destroy your opponent. You're not making friends, you're trying to vanquish your opponent before he does the same to you. If both parties are battle hardened players with similiar skills, then it's a matter of negotiating weight, type of games, time limits, etc., much like looking for that upper ground advantage.

What I hate are these kinds of games where all players aren't necessarily contestants. That to me, is like trained soldiers concentrating on massacring civilians. In my opinion, taking the bartender's money was as easy as an armed soldier killing a civilian, but is that really OK?

Are we really so self centered that we think it's alright to bilk old people out of their money, just because it's easy? That might sound alright to some, but I have an aged mother who has to live on 60% of the money she worked so hard for so many years for her retirement because of a thief named Bernie Madoff. She has no capability to work to add that money back. She just has to live the rest of her life making due with what she has left, knowing that she was robbed by a person that she thought was looking out for her best interests. She wasn't a contestant in the game.

I just hope there is karma for these people. I sincerely wish horrible, festering boils on the Madoffs and Trudeaus of the world, and they can try and justify their positions all day long, but they know what they are and so do I.

Steve Feld
Phoenix, AZ
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???????????????

Something I want to say here but I don't quite know what it is.Shooting pool is like playing poker. 9-ball is like draw poker. The negotiation for an advantage in pool is like the betting and drawing cards in poker. Playing the
pool game and showing your skills is like the showdown in poker. Neither player knows for sure what kind of hand the other has until the showdown or play. Each tries to deceive the other relative to the value of what they hold.
Both make a bet on what they believe is to their advantage. This is universally accepted in the game of poker but criticized by some when practiced in pool. If they choose to play another game they do it with the knowledge gained in the first game. It's their business.

I'm not talking about what the pig OP did to dump his backer. (OOPS! Sorry , pigs). But any time a challenge goes on between two guys holding pool cues or a deck of cards, each thinks he can beat the other. Even if there is a great disparity between their relative skills (are we to look , always, for someone who can beat us in order to be honorable?), both think their going to win. That's the game.
I agree that adding a 3rd party (backer, steerer) adds risk to the game, but so does partners in poker. Of course not acceptable, but a risk you take when you sit down at a table. It's something to look out for. It's
part of the personal responsibility that you must accept when taking risk.

I believe there is a difference between hustling between interested parties
and stealing from ignorant outsiders.I consider hustling to be akin to negotiating between parties who know, at least, what the game is. When it becomes dishonorable it is then called by another name. It is no longer hustling.

God, don't you love this game?

Another good name for hustling would be: jostling or jockeying for position.
 
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