Best Machine Ever. :-)

[John Barton]

Should Barry Szambotti show everyone how he cuts points?
Should Davis and Bear show everyone how they make full-splice?

Of course not. But do you think that it's Barry or Davis' RIGHT to sell or give away this information if they want to?

I don't give away all my methods either. That still doesn't stop people from taking them.

I believe that I was the first person in cue case making to integrate the ring holder into the laced seam like I did on a few cases - this one being the first

www.jbcases.com/doc.html

A month or so ago WA Cases from Germany showed off a case that copied this technique almost exactly.

In essence because I put it out there with no patent (not that it was patentable or worth patenting) I GAVE it to the world.

Sometimes I will give other things to some case makers. These things help those case makers to get better.

The point is that it's my right to share what I want to whether I get paid money for it or get paid with good karma points.

I don't feel that anyone should label me a "sellout" if I share what I know with case makers large and small.

It's mine. I can sell it or give it away as I choose to. I don't begrudge anyone the right to attempt to do what I do as long as I have the same right to try and do what they do. All legally of course.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Of course not. But do you think that it's Barry or Davis' RIGHT to sell or give away this information if they want to?

If you don't share your secrets with your fellow American cuemakers then you are not helping them or anyone else, you are only helping yourself, i.e. acting in your own self-interests only.

So, is acting in your own-self interest only bad or good?

 

[John Barton]

So, is acting in your own-self interest only bad or good?

It depends. But I think it's not right to label acting in your own self-interest as "bad" when it involves teaching others what you know in a commercial setting and in a legal way.

I think that when we as Americans happily accept knowledge and machines (and raw materials like Ebony and Cocobolo) from other countries then we shouldn't judge those of us who go to other countries to teach people there how to do things better.

 

[manwon]

John, I told you in two other threads that you need to relax, and that you are no longer a favorite in any discussion on this board. People can see right through your intent John, you attempts at proving who is wrong or right are foolish. Sometimes John enough is enough, and it is better to keep your idea's and beliefs to yourself rather than to continue providing evidence that you Obsessive compulsive.

Face it John, the silent majority are beginning to speak and they do not agree with you, along with the fact that those that support you are falling silent. Leave it alone and continue making your cases, this is an argument you can't win and in the end you are losing much more where credibility is concerned than you gain.

I have said many times, what do you have to prove to anyone? You are doing what you want, when you want and how you want for most people that would be more than enough there is no reason to continue embarrassing yourself publicly!!!!!!!

JIMO:shrug::shrug:

 

[ratcues]

What if I offered you more money than you can make selling cues in the next thirty years? Thus your long term success, insofar as it's measured in money is secured? Which choice do you make then and why?

How did you learn cue making?

It all depends. My first priority is to take care of my family. I will do that whether I continue to make cues for the next 30 years or if I take your hypothetical offer but I want my legacy to be positive. I do not want people to remember me as the guy that sold out for the quick buck and knocked the bottom out of the custom cue market.

Troy Downey taught me how to repair cues. I used that knowledge and the work in front of me to learn how and why to make cues. I have never bought a cue just to cut it apart to see what makes it tick. My experience makes my cues. It is a culmination of everything I have seen over the past 13 years.

So, what is your point of all of this? Most people are driven by their own self interest. I want the most by giving the least. Each person is guided by that as long as it is within their moral parameters. That's the variable.

 

[John Barton]

John, I told you in two other threads that you need to relax, and that you are no longer a favorite in any discussion on this board. People can see right through your intent John, you attempts at proving who is wrong or right are foolish. Sometimes John enough is enough, and it is better to keep your idea's and beliefs to yourself rather than continue providing evidence that you Obsessive compulsive.

Face it John, the silent majority are beginning to speak and they do not agree with you, along with the fact that those that support you are falling silent. Leave it alone and continue making your cases, this is an argument you can't win and in the end you are losing much more where credibility is concerned than you gain.

I have said many times, what do you have to prove to anyone? You are doing what you want, when you want and how you want for most people that would be more than enough there is no reason to continue embarrassing yourself publicly!!!!!!!

JIMO:shrug::shrug:

Do you have anything to add to the actual topic? I know that I had something on my mind and put out a question to the group.

Maybe some of the "silent majority" will at least see the subject a little deeper now and be better able to weigh both sides.

I am not trying to be a "favorite" in any discussion. That is something that I believe is more fitting to describe your behavior, but I digress again.

If you have something to add to the discussion that pertains to the actual topic then please do so.

 

[John Barton]

It all depends. My first priority is to take care of my family. I will do that whether I continue to make cues for the next 30 years or if I take your hypothetical offer but I want my legacy to be positive. I do not want people to remember me as the guy that sold out for the quick buck and knocked the bottom out of the custom cue market.

Troy Downey taught me how to repair cues. I used that knowledge and the work in front of me to learn how and why to make cues. I have never bought a cue just to cut it apart to see what makes it tick. My experience makes my cues. It is a culmination of everything I have seen over the past 13 years.

So, what is your point of all of this? Most people are driven by their own self interest. I want the most by giving the least. Each person is guided by that as long as it is within their moral parameters. That's the variable.

Fair enough. So you feel then that sharing of knowledge with some people is ok, i.e. Americans, but not ok to share with foreigners?

Do you think that the cue makers who have shared their knowledge with foreigners have knocked the bottom out of the custom cue market?

If so how do you explain the fact that there are now more cue makers than ever?

 

[John Barton]

Than you should also look at post 23 where you told me and others that your post was not about economics or the transfer of technology. Which is it, John? You are contradicting yourself once again.

bob

This is what I said Bob, "The question was not intended to get into a global economics discussion but instead to ASK THE CUEMAKER about a topic related to MAKING CUES."

The initial question was surely about the PERSONAL economics of being a cue maker as relates to whether they would pursue knowledge and machines if it would further their own abilities even if that knowledge and machinery came from overseas.

You and others brought globalization and international espionage into what is really a simple question.

I will restate it for you and perhaps you can just answer it simply rather than going far afield.

If you were offered some kick ass machine that would enhance your cuemaking greatly or you were offered some technique that would do the same BUT that machine or technique were from outside the USA would you want to have it?

 

[ratcues]

Fair enough. So you feel then that sharing of knowledge with some people is ok, i.e. Americans, but not ok to share with foreigners?

That's not what I said at all. There are things I share with anyone who asks, foreign or domestic. Go back and read my past posts. I have never looked at someone's location and thought "I can't tell this person."

Do you think that the cue makers who have shared their knowledge with foreigners have knocked the bottom out of the custom cue market?

Yes, I think that has, to a degree. I follow and track trends of the types of cues and the types of repairs coming in the door. Stroud and Lucasi have been the biggest, which has also helped Predator since they are made in the same factory. They are both, by far, the best quality of the "Asian imports." That being said, what is bad for the custom cuemaker has been good for the industry. Anytime a person can buy a decent cue, within their price range, and plays pool, there is one more potential customer for the pool room, me as a repairman, Muellers, and so on.

If so how do you explain the fact that there are now more cue makers than ever?

I believe that is due to the access to info, such as this forum, DVDs, and books. When I started, no one was talking, so to speak. Just because there is a greater number of cuemakers does not necessarily mean they are all successful cuemakers or good cuemakers or even average cuemakers.

 

[bdcues]

John, the simple answer from myself and probably most others would be "Yes". The problem is your inference from this about my morality or standards, something that you can not know from mine or anyone elses answer to this question. Second, like I said in my first post, this area "Ask the cuemaker" allows people to ask a question, not to provide an arena for someone to argue or debate their point. If your question is a simple yes or no than you should except that from the cuemakers. If you feel that they have ranged far and wide than maybe your question was not as simple as you stated, proven by the fact that you had to reiterate it several times. To come to this forum and tell me or anyone else that I am not living up to your standards makes you look like an pompous ass. Would you do the same with someone in your living room? Would you ask a "simple" question then, when answered, tell that person that you think they are a hypocrit? Would you launch into a 20 minute rant about how screwed up that persons reasoning was? I would hope not. And I personally wish you would not do it here.

 

[John Barton]

That's not what I said at all. There are things I share with anyone who asks, foreign or domestic. Go back and read my past posts. I have never looked at someone's location and thought "I can't tell this person."

I know that you share things here and most likely in private as well. Do you feel that maybe you are selling out America if some foreign cue maker takes your knowledge that you give up for free and makes better cues because of it?

Yes, I think that has, to a degree. I follow and track trends of the types of cues and the types of repairs coming in the door. Stroud and Lucasi have been the biggest, which has also helped Predator since they are made in the same factory. They are both, by far, the best quality of the "Asian imports." That being said, what is bad for the custom cuemaker has been good for the industry. Anytime a person can buy a decent cue, within their price range, and plays pool, there is one more potential customer for the pool room, me as a repairman, Muellers, and so on.

Stroud doesn't make cues in Asia. There is no Stroud brand. As far as we know Bill Stroud helped Taican at Jim Lucas' request. Richard Helmstetter did the same thing at David Foreman's request in the 70's in Japan.

I still don't agree that imports are "bad" for the custom cuemaker. If these cues are so terrible, even the best of them, then it will only whet the taste for better cues among those players who plan to devote extra time to the game.

I don't know how much you hang around pool rooms but I can tell you that in them people are constantly checking out cues from other people and the ones that have the MOST street cred are the players who have custom cues. Those people are like walking billboards wanting to tell anyone who will listen how awesome their cue is. A lot of them graduated from low priced import cues.

I believe that is due to the access to info, such as this forum, DVDs, and books. When I started, no one was talking, so to speak. Just because there is a greater number of cuemakers does not necessarily mean they are all successful cuemakers or good cuemakers or even average cuemakers.

I fully agree with this. I would also like to add though that a plethora of not particularly good cuemakers and hobby cuemakers (those who have a day job) also undermines the business of full time professional cue makers. Basically when anyone can get in the business of making cues by getting some videos and a relatively cheap lathe, go take a class from Arnot or people like him offering classes, and buy just about everything they need pre-made from Atlas, Prather, Davis, Duc, Brianna, etc... then there is bound to be a lot of competition among the people calling themselves custom cue makers. Still they must be selling enough to keep them interested hence the fact that there are more cuemakers than ever before despite the rise in imported production cues.

 

[cueman]

Of course not. But do you think that it's Barry or Davis' RIGHT to sell or give away this information if they want to?

I don't give away all my methods either. That still doesn't stop people from taking them.

I believe that I was the first person in cue case making to integrate the ring holder into the laced seam like I did on a few cases - this one being the first

www.jbcases.com/doc.html

A month or so ago WA Cases from Germany showed off a case that copied this technique almost exactly.

In essence because I put it out there with no patent (not that it was patentable or worth patenting) I GAVE it to the world.

Sometimes I will give other things to some case makers. These things help those case makers to get better.

The point is that it's my right to share what I want to whether I get paid money for it or get paid with good karma points.

I don't feel that anyone should label me a "sellout" if I share what I know with case makers large and small.

It's mine. I can sell it or give it away as I choose to. I don't begrudge anyone the right to attempt to do what I do as long as I have the same right to try and do what they do. All legally of course.

I can realate to this. I introduced the lathe pins to the cue repair market back in 1987 or 1988 and a friend of mine went and copied them exactly. They had a solid 1/2" inch shank on them and then he came up with the idea of turning the shank down to 3/8" so people could use them in their cheaper 3/8" drills. Now remember he copied my 1/2" shank ones identically at first. So I started cutting mine down to 3/8" also and he started going around telling everyone he invented the lathe pins and that I copied him. But Dusty Rhodes an elderly machinist invented the lathe pins that I started selling. Before that all the cue repairmen were just using joint screws with no shoulder. I had bent my 3/8-10 and could not find one. I asked him to make me another screw and he suggested making them solid solid with only a little thread on the end, which gave a shoulder to bottom out against. He also helped me figure out how to make a hollow spindle and chuck for the wood lathes Home Depot carried at the time and I decided to start selling them. That is the short of how I got into the machinery business. It was the search for something to spin McDermott shafts with that mushroomed into the business I have today. So yes we all get ideas from each other and that is not a bad thing.

 

[John Barton]

John, the simple answer from myself and probably most others would be "Yes". The problem is your inference from this about my morality or standards, something that you can not know from mine or anyone elses answer to this question. Second, like I said in my first post, this area "Ask the cuemaker" allows people to ask a question, not to provide an arena for someone to argue or debate their point. If your question is a simple yes or no than you should except that from the cuemakers. If you feel that they have ranged far and wide than maybe your question was not as simple as you stated, proven by the fact that you had to reiterate it several times. To come to this forum and tell me or anyone else that I am not living up to your standards makes you look like an pompous ass. Would you do the same with someone in your living room? Would you ask a "simple" question then, when answered, tell that person that you think they are a hypocrit? Would you launch into a 20 minute rant about how screwed up that persons reasoning was? I would hope not. And I personally wish you would not do it here.

Then why didn't you just answer yes or no? If I then went off on your response you could make a case for me reading more into it.

You read more into the question and replied with a 20 minute rant of your own about spies and how you feel so much better about yourself because you didn't sell out to David Foreman.

Maybe my question wasn't so simple. But what of it? All you had to do was stick to the topic and you didn't.

As for 'going off' on cue makers for their answer I didn't do that either. I have discussed the answers with them.

Lee has stated his position. I don't fully agree with him but I respect his position. He declined to answer whether he would seek to gain access to the hypothetical super machine and build his own version.

Ryan stated his positions and I can respect them even if I don't fully agree.

The whole point is that some of you feel that people are selling out America if they go abroad and share knowledge. I happen to believe that some of you who feel this way would happily accept some super machine or some awesome new method if the Chinese gave it to you and it really worked.

So I asked that direct question of the cue makers on this board. If a simple yes/no would have sufficed to answer the question then you should have just given it. Instead you and others sought some nefarious underlying motivation. A few of you really seem to think that I have some machine for sale.

It was just a point of discussion that was sparked by earlier discussions and some comments in other threads. That's all.

John, the Evil Genius out to Take Over the World, Barton signing off.

"All your base are belong to us"

 

[ratcues]

The more I participate, the dumber I get....

I know that you share things here and most likely in private as well. Do you feel that maybe you are selling out America if some foreign cue maker takes your knowledge that you give up for free and makes better cues because of it?

I can give out info without selling myself out. For me, this has little to do with America vs China, as you are trying to make it. If you read my post from a different thread on a similar topic, it is the "walmartization" of America.

Stroud doesn't make cues in Asia. There is no Stroud brand. As far as we know Bill Stroud helped Taican at Jim Lucas' request. Richard Helmstetter did the same thing at David Foreman's request in the 70's in Japan.

You know what I meant. Stroud helped Lucas set up shop.

I still don't agree that imports are "bad" for the custom cuemaker. If these cues are so terrible, even the best of them, then it will only whet the taste for better cues among those players who plan to devote extra time to the game.

I would say, from my experience, a way larger percentage stay in the $500 and under than those who jump into the custom/production market of $500 and over. Of that larger percentage, which I think 90% is a safe bet, most will shoot with frilly crap, regardless of who or where it was made, as opposed to the custom made cue. That hurts the bottom end of the custom market.

 

[snipershot]

I can give out info without selling myself out. For me, this has little to do with America vs China, as you are trying to make it. If you read my post from a different thread on a similar topic, it is the "walmartization" of America.





You know what I meant. Stroud helped Lucas set up shop.



I would say, from my experience, a way larger percentage stay in the $500 and under than those who jump into the custom/production market of $500 and over. Of that larger percentage, which I think 90% is a safe bet, most will shoot with frilly crap, regardless of who or where it was made, as opposed to the custom made cue. That hurts the bottom end of the custom market.

I really like your cues you make Ryan, and you seem like a good guy with a good rep to go with it, so save yourself the headache my friend, you cannot have an intelligent discussion with John. Its impossible. If you say something that he doesnt like, even if its true, he will spin it like a DJ, and turn the whole damn topic in another direction. Make a valid statement that proves him wrong, and it will be totally turned around, words put in your mouth, and then followed up with eight pages of "Look at me" propaganda. He is anti-American, pro communist, and in my book, an enemy to me and my country. Take it easy Ryan.


Joe

 

[scdiveteam]

Go your own way

Hi,

It seems to me that a lot of guys are worried about what other people do or what other countries are up to concerning cue making. The only thing you can control is what you are doing or can do. Worrying about competition is a non productive endeavor.

I have been in business for over 31 years and in that time I learned that you want to know about your competition but since you can not control your competition it does not make much sense to spend your time in that area.

Other than the some intricate details involved in veneer full splice cue construction, making half splice point cues with even and sharp points is not that difficult. It is not like this is some advance secret. It is time consuming and requires extra material costs that you should be compensated for.

Buy America and other ethical and moral issues being discussed here are very passionate and I respect the views of all who post, even if I disagree. If you are making low priced cues you are wasting your time because cues from China with a name like McDermitt for under $100.00 will destroy you every time. The writings on the wall, "go high end or go broke". If you don't agree with me stay the coarse and you will be selling all of your stuff for .20 on the dollar.

The bottom line is design and build your custom cues better than the other guy and you will be successful. You can't be afraid to get paid high end earnings for your time and effort with a profit. Also, cut out any sales middle men who do not produce anything. Internet websites will do the job. Cue salesmen will get plenty of commissions selling your cue in the used equipment market.

Rick Geschrey

 

[John Barton]

I can give out info without selling myself out. For me, this has little to do with America vs China, as you are trying to make it. If you read my post from a different thread on a similar topic, it is the "walmartization" of America.

Good point. What kind of payment do you get from giving away knowledge? (this is a Dr. Phil question)

You know what I meant. Stroud helped Lucas set up shop.

I know what you meant but there are many readers who don't which is why I clarified it. And actually Lucas was set up long before Bill Stroud went there to improve things.

I would say, from my experience, a way larger percentage stay in the $500 and under than those who jump into the custom/production market of $500 and over. Of that larger percentage, which I think 90% is a safe bet, most will shoot with frilly crap, regardless of who or where it was made, as opposed to the custom made cue. That hurts the bottom end of the custom market.

Well I guess we will have disagree then on this point. My experience comes from hauling custom cues all over Europe and America for many years, going to countless tournaments, large and small as well as spending countless hours in the pool scene. I will be happy to make a small sweat bet with you though.

Let's pick a room with a good league presence and poll the people there as to what brands they are shooting with. I will bet that the ratio of American brands, both production and "custom" is within 5% of 50%. So if it's 45% or 55% I win the bet. Anything else and you win. Of course I think I still win the point if it turns out that more than 50% own American brands.

I bet you a good dinner at the next show we are at together. You have to find the place to do the poll though because I automatically lose if we do it in a Chinese pool room

 

[John Barton]

I really like your cues you make Ryan, and you seem like a good guy with a good rep to go with it, so save yourself the headache my friend, you cannot have an intelligent discussion with John. Its impossible. If you say something that he doesnt like, even if its true, he will spin it like a DJ, and turn the whole damn topic in another direction. Make a valid statement that proves him wrong, and it will be totally turned around, words put in your mouth, and then followed up with eight pages of "Look at me" propaganda. He is anti-American, pro communist, and in my book, an enemy to me and my country. Take it easy Ryan.


Joe

Your book is a coloring book and all you have is a white crayon. As usual you have nothing of value to contribute to the topic.

 

[ratcues]

Thanks for your concern....

Good point. What kind of payment do you get from giving away knowledge? (this is a Dr. Phil question).

To quote you, "good karma." Since I do not believe in karma, its because I'm just a nice guy. I don't feel like I give any secrets that are not readily available.

I will bet that the ratio of American brands, both production and "custom" is within 5% of 50%. So if it's 45% or 55% I win the bet. Anything else and you win. Of course I think I still win the point if it turns out that more than 50% own American brands.

My statement had nothing to do with American made vs Chinese made. My statement was $500 and under, regardless of where it was made, hence the "walmartization."

 

[WilleeCue]

You have to find the place to do the poll though because I automatically lose if we do it in a Chinese pool room

John, are you saying most Chinese pool players use American made cues?

Willee