A. The question was rhetorical.
B. Do you think anyone beleives this is a discussion about some hypothetical 'point machine'? (Also rhetorical)
Dale<who can spot a Dr Phil question from a mile away>
Best Machine Ever. :-)
- Thread starter John Barton
- Start date
A. The question was rhetorical.
B. Do you think anyone beleives this is a discussion about some hypothetical 'point machine'? (Also rhetorical)
Dale<who can spot a Dr Phil question from a mile away>
John, I dont think Lee meant that to be a "personal attack".
You asked for some input and he gave his opinion about it.
I have seen much worse posted about you that WAS a personal attack.
As far as my opinion goes ... I dont give a flip if you made cues on the moon using little green men for labor.
A cue should stand on its own merit ... not who or where it is made.
If it is a quality product then all that should not matter.
The sad part is that some well known pool players have sold out their name on some really cheap made cues and then charge like they were custom made, top of the line.
Some American cue makers are afraid ... but they should not be!
The the shroud of mystery has been lifted, the smoke has cleared, and the mirrors broken.
No longer are the cue making secrets hidden away.
Anyone with even a bit of common sense can see that what it takes to make a quality cue is not an exclusive bit of knowledge possessed by any one person no matter where he lives.
All the American cue maker needs to do is continue to make the best he can and the chips will fall where they should fall.
If some guy in China makes a better cue than some guy in Indiana is that so hard to believe?
Quality ... If it is ... it is.
Willee
Really?
That would mean all long-time cueamakers know all the secrets to cueamaking then.
John Barton
New member
If my initial question is not about economic and moral issues surrounding transfer of technology and information using a hypothetical non-existent (at least to my knowledge non-existent) machine then what is it about?
John Barton
New member
This was not the reason the thread was started. It was started for the reason I gave you. The Chinese Cue Makers already have the same tools to make perfect points that you do. They might not have the skill or be willing to take the time but they do have the machines.
The thread was started to spark some real discussion of whether people should have the right to acquire information and once they have it should they have the right to sell that information.
I feel that if you are a cue maker then you have the right to gather information about your craft and buy whatever machinery you need to work your craft. Once you have acquired this information and machinery you then own it and can sell it to whomever you want to - barring contracts to the contrary.
Do you disagree?
D-i-s-c-u-s-s-i-o-n
Dale< who also recognizes the semi Socratic method when he sees it>
Everything you said in this post is correct. You have the right to do all those things. But should you? Do you go around telling everyone how to make your cases? I know you help many young case makers with hints and tricks here and there but if you pull your pants down, so to speak, you create your own competition. Why would anyone do that?
There is no doubt in my mind that I could come over to the factory you oversee and make improvements in technique and/or design that would give you a much better product. I could make a quick buck or two in the process but at what cost to my long term success? This isn't a hobby for me.
No ... but the smarter ones know how to get the information they need.
No one person knows it all, Joey.
Willee
Easy to build the perfect playing cue?
Where did that come from?
Has a perfect cue ever been built?
Willee
John Barton
New member
Actually no, none of the initial question had anything to do with you personally. A lot of people feel that it's selling out to teach someone in another country how to do something. However they don't seem to mind to much when someone in another country comes to the USA to teach us how to do something.
This seems like a perverse way to live to me. Something like I want all that you have but you can't have any of mine.
I did ask the question I wanted to ask in as plain as a way as I could. I used a hypothetical machine related to cue making to frame the context.
What is the question that you think I wanted to ask?
My question is not related to state secrets and industrial secrets that are gained by spying and illegal means. I did not say that any person or company or government has the right to acquire knowledge by any means possible.
To keep this cue maker related I think that any one who develops a technique or a special jig or builds a machine owns that information. If they show it to someone else then they are giving away that information unless they bind that person to a contract forbidding use of it. But even with a contract they are letting the cat out of the bag so to speak.
If they choose they can give away the information for free or they can sell it or keep it secret as long as they can.
Now, let's talk about your personal example for a moment.
Let's start with the big bomb you toss out, GREED. You accuse Predator of being greedy for moving their production to China. Unless you have some insider access to Predator's decisions you really don't know the reasons for their choice. But let's assume that you are right and the only reason they wanted to produce at their lowest possible cost is to improve their profit margins.
What's wrong with that? You state that you make a laminated shaft and that you could have gone head to head against Predator. Why do you make this shaft? I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you make it because there is a market for laminated shafts and you feel that yours is better than the market leader's version.
Why is there a market for laminated shafts? Because Predator created it.
They built a laminated shaft and felt that it's an improvement over single piece shafts. Great. Now they had to go out and convince consumers of that. To do that they spent millions over the past decade. Because of their efforts millions of people know about laminated shafts and many of them believe that laminated shafts are better. Predator paved the way for you, Tiger, OB1, Meucci, and others to make and sell laminated shafts.
So essentially you benefit greatly from Predator's marketing. You can point to any of their many advertisments and all you have to say to your customer is "mine is better than theirs". Predator already did the heavy lifting for you and primed consumers to WANT a laminated shaft.
So why wouldn't you WANT Predator to make more money? Don't you want them to continue pushing laminated shafts and growing that market?
Ok, I think (and hope) that you get my point about this.
Now, let's move on to the second part of your personal example, sharing of knowledge with a partner.
You were partners with David Foreman and he wanted to make your shaft overseas where according to you it would have been made in larger quantities and had a larger marketing budget behind it. But you didn't want to give away your secret sauce to a place and a partner you couldn't control. Do I have it right?
If so then that is your choice. It's not wrong of David to want to take what he thinks is a great product and make it bigger. You can choose to do that or you can choose to stay small. People do it every day. If David is the money man then he can decide to invest in your production in the USA or in his production in Asia.
I am certainly not advocating that all information should be freely available to all people all the time. But I am advocating that if you possess it and it is yours then you have the right to give it away or sell it as you see fit.
Just as you have the right to legally acquire all information (and machinery) that furthers your business.
Do you at least agree with these two assertions? And if not how do you propose that the craft is furthered?
Is there a machine being made in China right now b/c someone showed somebody his secret jig?
John Barton
New member
I do create my own competition and I also try to create a larger market.
But your last two sentences are most telling. At what cost to your long term success do you sell knowledge? This isn't a hobby for you.
So in the interest of preserving what you have now you make a decision to keep your knowledge to yourself.
What if I offered you more money than you can make selling cues in the next thirty years? Thus your long term success, insofar as it's measured in money is secured? Which choice do you make then and why?
If you don't share your secrets with your fellow American cuemakers then you are not helping them or anyone else, you are only helping yourself, i.e. acting in your own self-interests only. If you give away or sell your information to your fellow Americans then you are creating your own competition which you say you don't want to do.
How did you learn cue making?
Should Barry Szambotti show everyone how he cuts points?
Should Davis and Bear show everyone how they make full-splice?
Hey John, you know as well as any body.
It is not the country it is made in, but the skill and technology behind them that makes the quality.
In short if a machine was made in country X and could do something and was really good, then of course as long as it was available people will buy it.
An example of this, is where I work now.They have a machine that does a specific process for the Aluminum joinery market. The machine and technology comes from a European company with a technology agreement.
Only certain people are allowed to see the process in operation .
Most industies have secrets, and makeing cues is no different.
I have some secrets in my new jump cue for example. Untill I sell it or give it away it will still be mine unless someone else goes down the track and discovers for themselves what it is.
Neil
It is not the country it is made in, but the skill and technology behind them that makes the quality.
In short if a machine was made in country X and could do something and was really good, then of course as long as it was available people will buy it.
An example of this, is where I work now.They have a machine that does a specific process for the Aluminum joinery market. The machine and technology comes from a European company with a technology agreement.
Only certain people are allowed to see the process in operation .
Most industies have secrets, and makeing cues is no different.
I have some secrets in my new jump cue for example. Untill I sell it or give it away it will still be mine unless someone else goes down the track and discovers for themselves what it is.
Neil
John Barton
New member
Not by me. The last thing I want to do is be involved with selling any kind of machines.
John Barton
New member
I agree fully. I just wonder if the people who condemn others for selling or giving away knowledge that they own would buy or use knowledge that came from someone else no matter if they had to buy it or got it for free.