Most pro player that was asked listed Lassiter as the top 9 ball player ever.
Best nine ball player ever top speed
- Thread starter Nature Boy
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Today I feel like the speed of players is just so much higher than the players of the 90s with the exception of Archer/Reyes. SVB, Alex etc are just incredible players.
I would like to see a statistical analysis of this. If you factor in 10-ball I think Earl is considerably weakened.
This reminds me of the old farts that talk about Mosconi's big runs on the bucket pockets.
I would like to see a statistical analysis of this. If you factor in 10-ball I think Earl is considerably weakened.
This reminds me of the old farts that talk about Mosconi's big runs on the bucket pockets.
I understand your point. Earl turned into a tournament player a an early age. What I mean by that is that he picked up sponsors who felt it was bad for their image to gamble. Earl liked the sponsorship and wanted to be a true professional and represent the sport in a very professional manner. He started dressing a lot classier, did what he could to project a clean lifestyle, that of a role model. He pulled that off very well for several years. But with the exception of the "Color of Money" thing Earl seldom "matched up" during his tournament career. Not like back when Monroe Brock was staking both Earl and Buddy. In the early 80's Earl gambled and I feel it toughened him up for tournament play. He pretty much stopped gambling after Monroe was murdered and he picked up corporate sponsorship. When he went with Cuetec he stopped altogether, in fact I think he told me that it was in his contract. I wonder if the fact that he stopped gambling hurt his game any? Or maybe if he not had the income from sponsorship would he have been hungrier and maybe held his own a little better over his career? I don't know, I guess no one does, but it does bring up an interesting concept. I know that in order to really learn to play one pocket, you have to gamble. There has to be a risk or penalty involved when taking flyers and missing. If you don't have to pay for your mistakes you'll keep making them. I'm not sure if this really crosses over to 9&10 Ball to the same extent. Well I'm rambling again!
Just for the record, in the Color of Money matchup, in day one and two, earl's lead didnt break much if at all past the 8 or 9 game mark. only late on day three did earl reach his max lead of 17 games, before efren went into one of his high gears. the main problem for efren during the entire match was his break, def. not his overall gameplay. earl was def. flashier, but if efrens break was as consistent as earls throughout the entire three days, it might have been efren with the big lead.
Anyways, to the op, in top gear, its only between efren and earl for me.
Anyways, to the op, in top gear, its only between efren and earl for me.
what exactly is your point?
So what is ur point? That in a race to 120 efren wins. That is because on day 1,2,or 3 efren played his game and won, cause thats what he does. He is the Greatest at any pocket billiards game in my opinion. A RACE TO 12O!
So what is ur point? That in a race to 120 efren wins. That is because on day 1,2,or 3 efren played his game and won, cause thats what he does. He is the Greatest at any pocket billiards game in my opinion. A RACE TO 12O!
i agree with that. and for playing for themoney in 9ball ill take archer on a tight table against him.
bigdaddy58
Registered
Earl the best
In golf they determine who's the best via "Majors". Earl won SIX World 9 ball titles and FIVE U.S. Open's. Buddy Hall TWO U.S. Opens, 1 World Title, Efren 2 World Titles, One U.S. Open.
Best Nine Ball Player. Earl Strickland, bar none, Done deal, over and out, discussion over.
In golf they determine who's the best via "Majors". Earl won SIX World 9 ball titles and FIVE U.S. Open's. Buddy Hall TWO U.S. Opens, 1 World Title, Efren 2 World Titles, One U.S. Open.
Best Nine Ball Player. Earl Strickland, bar none, Done deal, over and out, discussion over.
Ok ok every one here probably is aware of this already but I haven't seen mention of it, what If we take "performance enhancing drugs" out of the equation... Is Earl still the victor? Lol... C'mon! Earl's a cheater everyone knows it... Pool organizations should start drug testing...
You are so full of sh**! Earl is proud and doesn't take losing well. Not many winners do! But to accuse him of using performance enhancing drugs is rediculous! I've known Earl for 25 years and I'll vouch for the fact that he doesn't! OK, may have been a time when he used to smoke a little weed, but he would never even do that before he played and that's not a "performance enhancing drug".
I hate when "keyboard cowards" take potshots at other people from behind the anonomity of a screen name! Acting like thay actually "know" something when it's just in their heads! That was un-called for!
Earl was awesome
I know this subject comes up from time to time, and everyone is gonna have his own opinions of who's the "best".....so I want to throw my 2 cents in there too......What I saw of Luther Lassiter in his later years impressed me enough to think he was probably the best 9-ball player in his era.......What I saw of the "Color of Money" match between Earl and Efren impressed me that exactly what Mark Wilson said at the end of the match..."there was no loser here, only 2 great champions, and one won." So, for me, Efren winning that match did not prove he was the best 9 ball player. What really takes the cheese for Earl is what I saw him do on various and many Accu-Stats tapes to many pro champions, including Buddy Hall and Steve Mizerak......I'm referring to the 5, 6, 7, and maybe 8-pack runs he seemed to do routinely in the middle of a match, thereby closing it out so that his opponent just sat in his chair the rest of the way. That was an awesome ability, and what sets him apart from the rest for me.... and I know that many pro champions are capable of running racks like that, but nowhere near the consistency that I saw in those days.....I think Jay has referred to this in the past too.....The last thing I want to say that I admire about Earl's game, is his seemingly natural stroke and style of play.....I was impressed with that the first time I ever saw him play.
I know this subject comes up from time to time, and everyone is gonna have his own opinions of who's the "best".....so I want to throw my 2 cents in there too......What I saw of Luther Lassiter in his later years impressed me enough to think he was probably the best 9-ball player in his era.......What I saw of the "Color of Money" match between Earl and Efren impressed me that exactly what Mark Wilson said at the end of the match..."there was no loser here, only 2 great champions, and one won." So, for me, Efren winning that match did not prove he was the best 9 ball player. What really takes the cheese for Earl is what I saw him do on various and many Accu-Stats tapes to many pro champions, including Buddy Hall and Steve Mizerak......I'm referring to the 5, 6, 7, and maybe 8-pack runs he seemed to do routinely in the middle of a match, thereby closing it out so that his opponent just sat in his chair the rest of the way. That was an awesome ability, and what sets him apart from the rest for me.... and I know that many pro champions are capable of running racks like that, but nowhere near the consistency that I saw in those days.....I think Jay has referred to this in the past too.....The last thing I want to say that I admire about Earl's game, is his seemingly natural stroke and style of play.....I was impressed with that the first time I ever saw him play.
I couldn't agree more. I've never seen anyone who could put his opponent into a coma like Earl, and he did it so quickly! He'd be playing Buddy or Efren or Sigel and Earl would be down 4-2 and then 10 minutes later Earl would be up 9-4!
The problem for Earl on the last day was not his break, or his ability. It was his attitude and annoyance at people sitting around him. He missed several shots after glaring at people moving, caughing, itching, smiling, breathing, and that let Efren to the table.
G-R-E-A-T post Sherm!! I agree with you 100%.
Now, in my opinion, 3 things make a GREAT player.
1. Tournaments won
2. Gambling prowess
3. Longevity.
In my opinion, Luther Lassiter was the greatest 9 baller to ever play. Earl was the the best tournament 9 baller, but Luther beats him in gambling ability as well as longevity.
As for background on Luther Lassiter, he was born on Nov 5, 1918 and died at age 69 on Oct 25, 1988. He was a great player by the time he was in his 20s, but, in the 1940's and 1950's, there were hardly any major 9 ball tournaments being held. By the time the Johnson City tournaments came into being starting in 1961, Lassiter was already a legendary road player. Starting in 1962 (the 1st Johnson City 9 ball tournament) Lassiter dominated the field and won the first of his 6 World 9 ball championships. These Johnson City and Stardust tournaments were the defacto World Championships and they had fields that included Harold Worst, Ed Kelly, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Ronnie Allen, Danny Jones, Eddie Taylor, Larry Johnson, Jim Marino, Buddy Hall and many other great players. Lassiter won titles in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1967, 1969 and 1971. Keep in mind that at this time, he was 44 in 1962 and 53 in 1971....His peak as a player was argueably past, yet he still beat very, very talented players.
Now, not only was he a great TOURNAMENT player, he was also one of the greatest MONEY players that ever lived. His favorite game was "money pool", any game he could bet on. Believe me when I tell you this, his game went UP several notches for the cash. Some players play better in tournaments than they do when they gamble, and others, visa-versa. Lassiter was a better money player than a tournament player.
So, put those two facts together, add in his longevity at the top (30+ years) and I can make a very strong case for him. This of course does not take into consideration his 4 outright World 14.1 Championships, PLUS 5 14.1 Championships at Johnson City, 5 World All-Around Championships and 1 World 1 Pocket Championship and you have a very gifted player indeed.
As for Strickland, I call him the greatest tournament 9 baller since Lassiter and he may in fact be Lassiter's equal at TOURNAMENT 9 ball. His 6 World Championships and 5 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championships is a record that I believe we will not see broken, ever. Look how hard it is for anyone to repeat or win those majors more than once. But Strickland, even though early in his career he did gamble at pool, at GAMBLING he was no match for Lassiter. So, you have two very special tournament players and one of them (Lassiter) also exceled at gambling 9 ball, so the edge, I believe, has to go to Lassiter.
As for Efren Reyes, he also has a special title. The greatest all around player to have ever played pocket billiards. He was a great 9 baller, but not "the GREATEST" and here is what I base that opinion on. In the two major championships at 9 Ball, Efren has 1 World 9 Ball Championship in 1999 and 1 U.S. Open 9 Ball Championship in 1994. Sigel has 5 WC and 3 US Open's, Varner has 3 WC and back-to-back US Open titles. Archer, Hall, Souquet and Allen Hopkins have combined major 9 ball titles greater than Reyes' 2. BUT, Reyes also has 6 World 8 Ball Championships, he is the greatest Rotation player ever, in my opinion the greatest 1 pocket player ever and he is super at 14.1. Overall, Reyes is better than Lassiter and Strickland, but not at 9 ball.
Consider this....Lassiter won 6 World 9 Ball Championships from the age of 44 till he was 53. He would have won how many more had there been 9 ball tournaments in the 2 previous decades. But there weren't any.
So, if he won 6 World Chamionships 20 years after his prime, what would he have been like from the 1940's to 1960's?
Compare that to Reyes, who has one (1) World 9 Ball Championship, in an era where for 10 plus years, there were 2 "World 9 Ball Championships" available every year! And Reyes has a total of 1. Lassiter, who didn't have tournaments to compete in until he was 44, still won 6 of them.
These are just MY opinions and many other fans and historians who love and study the game as much as I do may have differing opinions. But, once I collected & reviewed all the info that I have on these great players, I feel very confident in my selections of who was better at what.
Excellent assessment Terry, and lets not forget that Lassiter still played in 9 ball events now and then right up until 1987 or 1988 when he died and still played well even though he was WAY past his prime and nearly 70 years old. I believe in 1986 and 1987 Lasiter still managed to finish 7/8 or 9-12 in a a couple of major 9 ball events in which ALL the top players played. He finished as well or better than some really big names in their primes! Names like Keith McCready, Efren Reyes, Danny Medina etc.
You forgot one major thing; Reyes is arguably a world class 3 cushion player too. In fact, that has a big part of making him "the Magician".
Eric
Reyes is nowhere near world class speed in 3 cushion. He was and still is roughly a 1.00 avg. which wouldn't even make him a top amatuer. The top 3C pros have averages in the 1.8 - 2.1 range.
Hi Eric,
I didn't forget about Efren's prowness as a 3C player, I just didn't mention it in that post. Nor did I mention that I think he's the greatest saftey player as well as the greatest "getting outta safties" player ever.
I rank Efren #1 in the "over-all" best catagory. Varner is #2 and thanks to Jay Helfert's input over the years here, I have Harold Worst as #3 over-all. Worst's stock, in my book at least, has risen measurably since Jay added what he knew over the years. Ed Kelly is another "best all-around" monster player. But we digress from this thread......
That's a fact. If you compare him to American 3-C players he can old his own. In an international field, he'd be in pretty tough.
Thnaks for the correction.
I was thinking that Reyes was higher than a 1.0 avg? Either way, it is a ways from world class, but it was my understanding that he plays better than "top amateur"? no?
Eric