best pin type for wood to wood joint

Franky

Franky

woman I said NO!!!
Silver Member
I know many people are in the school of thought that a harder and/or stronger pin material must be better. :rolleyes: Although I am not a mechanical engineer, I tend to think that a somewhat softer material may be able to sustain a load and hold the cue together with not only friction on the threads but a "tension" along the axis of the pin...providing a more solid and less twangy hit. I want to be able to feel and hear the grains of chalk grip the cueball without any metal twang getting in the way.

I hear a lot of yapping about Southwest's great hit. What type of joint do those use?

What are your thoughts on the best type/types of pins for wood to wood joints? Titanium, steel, brass...whats best?

I'm opting for an ivory joint collar and ivory ferrule if you'd like to have that info available when chewing on this one.
 
Franky said:
I know many people are in the school of thought that a harder and/or stronger pin material must be better. :rolleyes: Although I am not a mechanical engineer, I tend to think that a somewhat softer material may be able to sustain a load and hold the cue together with not only friction on the threads but a "tension" along the axis of the pin...providing a more solid and less twangy hit. I want to be able to feel and hear the grains of chalk grip the cueball without any metal twang getting in the way.

I hear a lot of yapping about Southwest's great hit. What type of joint do those use?

What are your thoughts on the best type/types of pins for wood to wood joints? Titanium, steel, brass...whats best?

I'm opting for an ivory joint collar and ivory ferrule if you'd like to have that info available when chewing on this one.
Click to expand...

I'm a mechanical engineer. But that doesn't mean anything. I'm also an assembly engineer. That doesn't mean much either.

A few things matter, and the rest don't when considering a threaded connection.

Fine threads are a no-no if you're threading straight into wood. The fine threads will be more subject to cross threading and stripping.

Apart from that, the main thing about the pin itself is simply to hold the parts together tightly. So, whether it's a 3/8th-11 brass, a 3/8ths-12 wood screw, or 3/8ths-10, I doubt there's any advantage with the slight pitch change.

I love the idea of a radial pin, but if the tapped hole isn't right, I've had that joint come loose more often than any other joint. I think the tap design has been changed since the early years.

If you want to keep the weight at the joint low, you need to go to a higher strength to weight material like certain grades of aluminum, and titanium.

After all the cues I've played with, I can say without a doubt that the joint pin has little to do with the "hit" of the cue. I've got terrible sounding 3/8th-10 and radial flat-faced joints, as well as great sounding ones. I have terrible sounding/feeling SS into brass cues, and great ones. Quality, fit, finish, execution... those are what make a great hitting cue. Some joint styles make a the fit much more robust than others (e.g., Lambros, Schuler)

Fred
 
The joint cannot help the cue but it can sure cause problems. My favorite joints are ones where the screw can be can be threaded into a shaft without the use of a metal insert in the shaft. I think for the best feel, you want flat wood to wood if you can get it, with a thin joint collar to protect the edge. Metal inserts in shafts add weight and can come loose (creating vibraton and adding weight).

However, bare threaded shafts can swell, cross thread, and the threads can wear out with most joint screws. I prefer the Uni-loc Radial pin because the design is such that it will not wear out, cross thread, or tear up the threads on a shaft. My favorite set -up is the one Tiger products installed with my 314-2 partial shaft. They used a very tough plastic threaded insert that is perfect for the radial pin on my cue. I don't know if all the Predator 314-2's come this way, or that's the way Tiger just did it, but I think it's ideal. The two shafts they made for me this way cinch up very tight and there is absolutely no play in it when screwing it together. The fit is consistent too - because these end grain open threads tend to swell and change size. Usually the fit can't be too tight or you will have a problem in humid weather, etc., so the insert this eliminates wood movement. The insert adds no weight and since it's plastic, there will be no rattling.

After the radial pin, I like the 3/8 X 10 as long as the screw hole is threaded right. However, not all 3/8 X 10 screws measure exactly the same so they can go together loosely with the tap, cross thread, etc. That's why they are a dollar instead of five dollars too.

Chris
 
TheBook said:
A glass pin that is used in a Cog or RC3.
Click to expand...

Another vote for the glass, it is called g-10 and the best quality/ price with this pin is a Pat Diveney cue, IMO.
 
I don't have any experience with the Radial, but I have seen many threads on them here on A-Z. I have played with many Wood to Wood cues that had a 3/8 X 10 that screwed into the wood of the shaft and I liked the way they hit & feel.:)
 
wood

i think the wood pin i use in most of my cues has best hit of all pins. opinions differ as to what the hit or feel of a cue should be, but i think the more wood you have in a cue the better. the best feeling cue i have ever used was a hand carved one piece cue. the simpler built a cue the less to get loose, rattle, or tic. i think most of the newer gadgets, ie titanium, glass epoxy etc etc are just selling points. people rush to get the latest thing thinking that it will be their magic bullet. i've been playing for 50 plus years and believe me its not the new tip or the new pin, or the way this company or that company tapers its shafts, but practice, practice, practice.
 
desi2960 said:
i think the wood pin i use in most of my cues has best hit of all pins.
Click to expand...

I agree with this.

Haven't had the time to write up a proper review, but, in short: If you want a great looking & hitting cue at a very reasonable price delivered on time, Chuck Starkey's the man for the job.
 
Thanks for all the info, I'll chew on it while deciding on a cuemaker (or makers). :)
 
Cornerman said:
I'm a mechanical engineer. But that doesn't mean anything. I'm also an assembly engineer. That doesn't mean much either.

A few things matter, and the rest don't when considering a threaded connection.

Fine threads are a no-no if you're threading straight into wood. The fine threads will be more subject to cross threading and stripping.

Apart from that, the main thing about the pin itself is simply to hold the parts together tightly. So, whether it's a 3/8th-11 brass, a 3/8ths-12 wood screw, or 3/8ths-10, I doubt there's any advantage with the slight pitch change.

I love the idea of a radial pin, but if the tapped hole isn't right, I've had that joint come loose more often than any other joint. I think the tap design has been changed since the early years.

If you want to keep the weight at the joint low, you need to go to a higher strength to weight material like certain grades of aluminum, and titanium.

After all the cues I've played with, I can say without a doubt that the joint pin has little to do with the "hit" of the cue. I've got terrible sounding 3/8th-10 and radial flat-faced joints, as well as great sounding ones. I have terrible sounding/feeling SS into brass cues, and great ones. Quality, fit, finish, execution... those are what make a great hitting cue. Some joint styles make a the fit much more robust than others (e.g., Lambros, Schuler)

Fred
Click to expand...

Have you ever tried the conical joint by Terry Layani?

If anyone can talk about that, I would be interested.
 
desi2960 said:
I think most of the newer gadgets, ie titanium, glass epoxy etc etc are just selling points. people rush to get the latest thing thinking that it will be their magic bullet.
Click to expand...

I don't think that its necessarily about a magic bullet. Creative use of materials is one way to distinguish one cue from another in a virtual sea of quality custom cuemakers. I also suspect that a few of us like the "trick" components simply because they're cool. After all, isn't that some of the attraction with ivory? As far as I am aware, ivory is not a space age, uniform, stable, or particularly heavy-duty material. It's just nice looking and relatively rare, with a lot of history behind it.

Ken
 
TheBook said:
A glass pin that is used in a Cog or RC3.
Click to expand...

I like the Cog pin alot, SW uses brass which isnt as strong but their cues play great, i've played with them for years, the only Cog I played with belonged to Larry Schwartz(if my memorie is correct) he let me play with it for a few minutes and gave me a couple lessions and taught me a couple shots with the 30 minutes I used the cue, i', assuming it was his, this was in around 92 or 93, I loved the feel and hit of that Cog, I havent ever bought one.

I dont like ivory joints, the hit is a bit soft for me, I must have ivory ferrels.
a strong pin and ivory joint may not be a good plan as it might stress the joint to much and crack it, i have seen a few cracked ivory joints, i would re-think it.
 
What do you guys think about the metal to metal joints used on snooker cues made in the UK?
 
Snorks said:
Have you ever tried the conical joint by Terry Layani?

If anyone can talk about that, I would be interested.
Click to expand...
Of course. And I put the Layani Joint right up there after Lambros and Schuler.

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
Of course. And I put the Layani Joint right up there after Lambros and Schuler.

Fred
Click to expand...

Fred, you should try out one of our cues since we've developped a new way to machine the cone. The fit is now more perfect than ever (close to 80%). Who knows, I might now come before Lambros and Schuler ;)
 
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