Any help? I'm horrible at these... mainly when the ball is close to against the rail.
Just looking for easy ways to do a tough shot for me.
Just looking for easy ways to do a tough shot for me.
Best way to calculate a cross-corner bankshot
- Thread starter madhaterm3
- Start date
madhaterm3 said:
For balls that are going cross-corner or cross-side, it is easy to set up a target that works for all of them that are going to a particular pocket. Once you have that target set up, you can practice lots of shots quickly. How to set up the target is shown in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-09.pdfmadhaterm3 said:
Some people might call this a spot-on-the-wall system. It's not. No wall is that close to the table.
Here's another way that gets the same geometry for an object ball close to the cushion. Put your cue stick parallel to the rail the ball is next to and three diamonds from it. Put your joint even with the ball to be banked. Note what part of your stick is even with the pocket you are going to, and then take a spot the same distance on the cue on the other side of the joint. Site from the equi-distant point to the object ball. That's the line you want to drive the object ball along.
Of course, if you use side spin or cut one way or the other across the ball, the bank angle will change due to spin transferred to the object ball.
madhaterm3 said:
I would disregard systems altogether. There is WAY too much variation based on force and english that are often dictated by getting shape for the next shot.
In other words, what's the point of making the bank (unless it is the cheese) if you don't get shape on the next shot.
Just set up an OB inside the first diamond and try to SEE the angle. Shoot SOFTLY (the corners will rattle out more balls than cross side banks) with a tip of high center to get quick natural roll on the CB and make one shot at a time until you can make 10 in a row.
Then shoot the same shot fairly hard to see how much THAT table's cushions shorten the angle. Then shot the same shot with some pace and enough outside english (low and then high) to get the CB out to the middle of the table.
Play each until you make 10 in a row for each variation. Maybe 100 shots total in the series.
All the while you will be burning the angles into your mind.
Then do the same drill between the 1st and 2nd diamonds.
I guess what I am saying is that there is no easy formula that will lead to a high success rate. Rather, just "paying your dues" by shooting TONS AND TONS of banks will seriously upgrade your skills.
Then the trick is to be able to adjust your "default" angles from one table to the next. That is NOT easy which is why most pros avoid banks like the plague...even when they appear to be "on."
Regards,
Jim
this is the type I was refering to. When I use my normal "deflects at the angle it hits the rail" aiming system I am generally off.
madhaterm3 said:
this is the type I was refering to. When I use my normal "deflects at the angle it hits the rail" aiming system I am generally off.
Oh THAT kind of cross-corner. (-:
IMHO, unless you are a bank pool player, don't waste your time. Way too low a probability shot. Play a safety and let your opponent take the low odds shot.
Regards,
Jim
av84fun said:
Jim, this is a great post and right on! It's all about the hit, the english and the speed of stroke. You just have to learn the angles, and how the rails react on each table. The bottom line is it's all about "feel" and not about a system. As the Miz used to say, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE! The more you practice, the luckier you get.
madhaterm3 said:
This works very accurately for me but I have no idea why....
Visualize the shot from the pocket. That is, rest your level stick in your grip hand, over the pocket, with the tip at the spot you wish the ob to be just before it falls into the pocket. Look, from there, at the rail from where it will be banking. For some reason the spot on the rail just jumps up and seems obvious (for me).
Then read Jewett's column from about a year or so ago in BD where he explains how the ball sinks into the rail at one point and comes out of it at another. Adjust the spot accordingly based on speed, english, etc..
Then aim the cb to make the ob hit the spot on the rail that you wish it to, and there ya go!
Anyway, the gist of my "system" is looking at the shot backwards. This works GREAT for kick shots, btw.
I don't know if it'll help you, but maybe?
Jeff Livingston
More than you wanted to know (my specialty)...
It's easy enough to learn "ideal" angles for one-rail banks (I'll show you one way), but actually making those shots is more difficult. That's because (1) you still have to hit the object ball (OB) accurately with the cue ball (CB) and (2) friction between the CB & OB and between the OB & cloth changes the actual bank angles so the "ideal" angles are just an approximation. Still, knowing how to see the "ideal" angles is very helpful - it gives you a starting point from which you can develop a feel for the adjustment that's necessary for each actual shot.
Here are some tips for adjusting your aim for ball/ball and ball/cloth friction:
Ball/ball friction - If the CB doesn't hit the OB straight on, it will change the angle the OB goes and it will spin the OB a little. If the OB is hit on its left side it will be "thrown" slightly to the left and will spin a little to the left, so you'll have to aim the OB a little to the right to compensate (vice verse if the OB is hit on its right side).
Ball/cloth friction (rail) - While the OB is in contact with the rail during a bank, it moves into the rail and then out of it, but also moves along the rail during both these motions. In order to move along the rail, the OB must either roll or slide; if it rolls along the rail it will rebound "true", but if it slides along the rail (which is usually the case) cloth friction will slow it down and it will rebound "short". If the CB puts some spin on the OB this effect will change - if the spin is in the same direction as the OB is moving along the rail it will "true up" the rebound angle, and if the spin is in the opposite direction it will "shorten" the rebound angle even more than the rail friction alone will.
Ball/cloth friction (surface) - The OB will either be rolling forward or sliding when it hits the rail (sliding if it was hit hard or started out close to the rail, rolling otherwise). If it's rolling forward it will bank "long" (past the target) and if it's sliding it will bank short. If it's just starting to roll but isn't yet rolling completely, it might rebound true.
Ball/ball friction and ball/cloth friction (of both kinds) should be considered for every bank shot. Sometimes ball/ball friction will add to the effect of ball/cloth friction and other times they'll tend to cancel each other out. To learn how to adjust for them you have to shoot lots of shots while comparing the results with the "ideal" angles.
The drawing below shows one simple way to visualize the "ideal" angles. It's based on the principle that the diamonds mark equal distances along the rails and can be used to see ideal angles, which always go from a point on the near rail to another point on the far (banking) rail halfway to your target pocket. Basically, you use the diamonds to sight an ideal angle that's near your OB and shoot the OB about parallel with that.
The examples in the drawing are for banks to the lower left corner pocket (A). Use the diamonds to visualize one of the "guidelines" for an ideal angle that's nearest your OB (visualizing one on each side of the OB makes it even easier), then eyeball a line from the OB to the banking rail that's about parallel with it and shoot along that line. You'll make some and miss some (because you hit the OB wrong or didn't factor in the effects of friction correctly), but over time your percentage and your feel for all of this will improve.
Good luck!
pj
chgo
It's easy enough to learn "ideal" angles for one-rail banks (I'll show you one way), but actually making those shots is more difficult. That's because (1) you still have to hit the object ball (OB) accurately with the cue ball (CB) and (2) friction between the CB & OB and between the OB & cloth changes the actual bank angles so the "ideal" angles are just an approximation. Still, knowing how to see the "ideal" angles is very helpful - it gives you a starting point from which you can develop a feel for the adjustment that's necessary for each actual shot.
Here are some tips for adjusting your aim for ball/ball and ball/cloth friction:
Ball/ball friction - If the CB doesn't hit the OB straight on, it will change the angle the OB goes and it will spin the OB a little. If the OB is hit on its left side it will be "thrown" slightly to the left and will spin a little to the left, so you'll have to aim the OB a little to the right to compensate (vice verse if the OB is hit on its right side).
Ball/cloth friction (rail) - While the OB is in contact with the rail during a bank, it moves into the rail and then out of it, but also moves along the rail during both these motions. In order to move along the rail, the OB must either roll or slide; if it rolls along the rail it will rebound "true", but if it slides along the rail (which is usually the case) cloth friction will slow it down and it will rebound "short". If the CB puts some spin on the OB this effect will change - if the spin is in the same direction as the OB is moving along the rail it will "true up" the rebound angle, and if the spin is in the opposite direction it will "shorten" the rebound angle even more than the rail friction alone will.
Ball/cloth friction (surface) - The OB will either be rolling forward or sliding when it hits the rail (sliding if it was hit hard or started out close to the rail, rolling otherwise). If it's rolling forward it will bank "long" (past the target) and if it's sliding it will bank short. If it's just starting to roll but isn't yet rolling completely, it might rebound true.
Ball/ball friction and ball/cloth friction (of both kinds) should be considered for every bank shot. Sometimes ball/ball friction will add to the effect of ball/cloth friction and other times they'll tend to cancel each other out. To learn how to adjust for them you have to shoot lots of shots while comparing the results with the "ideal" angles.
The drawing below shows one simple way to visualize the "ideal" angles. It's based on the principle that the diamonds mark equal distances along the rails and can be used to see ideal angles, which always go from a point on the near rail to another point on the far (banking) rail halfway to your target pocket. Basically, you use the diamonds to sight an ideal angle that's near your OB and shoot the OB about parallel with that.
The examples in the drawing are for banks to the lower left corner pocket (A). Use the diamonds to visualize one of the "guidelines" for an ideal angle that's nearest your OB (visualizing one on each side of the OB makes it even easier), then eyeball a line from the OB to the banking rail that's about parallel with it and shoot along that line. You'll make some and miss some (because you hit the OB wrong or didn't factor in the effects of friction correctly), but over time your percentage and your feel for all of this will improve.
Good luck!
pj
chgo
Attachments
A method that someone taught me long ago was to aim the object ball into the back of the side pocket. This seems to work for me for the few shots that I attempt this bank instead of doing all the other measuring. After practicing, you get a feel for the correct angle. But, this is a good starting point.
Again, as mentioned by other posters, the speed of the shot and table conditions play a major factor in making the bank.
Here is another diagram that Jimmy Reid diagrammed and published. An easier way to use this instead of remembering all the numerical values, is to measure from pocket to pocket in the corners using your cue stick. Make a visual reference mark on your cue stick. Extend the stick out from the corner opposite the one you are banking to, (mirror image) and connect a line from that spot on your cue to the OB and shoot into that spot on the rail.
[Imagine the line extending in the diagram to a fixed point, is your cue]
InsidePool September 2003 Volume lll Issue 7
Again, as mentioned by other posters, the speed of the shot and table conditions play a major factor in making the bank.
Here is another diagram that Jimmy Reid diagrammed and published. An easier way to use this instead of remembering all the numerical values, is to measure from pocket to pocket in the corners using your cue stick. Make a visual reference mark on your cue stick. Extend the stick out from the corner opposite the one you are banking to, (mirror image) and connect a line from that spot on your cue to the OB and shoot into that spot on the rail.
[Imagine the line extending in the diagram to a fixed point, is your cue]
InsidePool September 2003 Volume lll Issue 7
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The same way you get to Carnegie Hall. Practice, practice, practice.
catscradle said:
I was once dating this girl who had to put on an a cappella show at Carnegie Hall. I helped out any way I could and since I'm a born & raised New Yorker, I was helping out with anyone who needed directions. You have no idea how badly I wanted to say that instead of, "Take the uptown Broadway Local to.."
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3KXWR1PLvS@
since i play a lot of one pocket i should be decent at this cross-railer, but i suck at it...need help with this one!
since i play a lot of one pocket i should be decent at this cross-railer, but i suck at it...need help with this one!
deadwhak said:
With the OB within 1/2 diamond from the rail, I always hit those with about 1/2 tip of high-outside english, (right english on this shot), and aim at a one-half ball hit. Providing the shot is not a double-kiss, (which this one is not).
Almost all these type shots that will not DK are half-ball hits.
Sorry to make you my example, doc, but...
This is a good example of how imprecise we really are with "fractional" CB/OB alignments. Even though it might look like it to you when you're aiming it, it's really nowhere near a half-ball hit. For a true half-ball hit to bank into that corner pocket the cue ball would have to be about where cue ball A is in the following diagram, about two feet away. If you hit the original shot with a half-ball hit, it will bank into the middle of the end rail (as shown by the red line).
I think this imprecision with fractional ball alignments is very common and is also why lots of players think the "fractional" aiming systems work without adjustments. Fractional CB/OB alignments, even half-ball, which is presumably the easiest and most accurate of all the fractional alignments, are very approximate in the hands of human players.
Fractional CB/OB alignments don't give any "extra" room for error - you have to aim them just as precisely as any other way of aiming.
pj
chgo