Why does a tenon strengthen the "A" joint over a flat faced? I think the strength comes from the overlap, especially if alternated. It cradles the point stock. With miters, you have to have the miter at exactly 90 degrees or else the point stock will not bottom out, therefore leaving a sizeable glue line between the tip of the actual point & where the veneers begin. Often, the actual point doesn't even look sharp because of it. Maybe it's only in my own mind, but logic tells me that an overlapping weave joint will be stronger than a two surface butted joint. And given that the overlapping veneers are glued flat to the point stock rather than mitered up & then attached to the point stock, I feel this adds some strength simply due to absolute true surface to surface adhesion. Again, the only way to acheive the absolute surface bond is if the miter is an absolute 90 degrees, which I very seldom see. The telling sign is the tip of the actual point, not the tip of the veneered point.
Better, topic (Veneers)
- Thread starter Michael Webb
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Why does a tenon strengthen the "A" joint over a flat faced? I think the strength comes from the overlap, especially if alternated. It cradles the point stock. With miters, you have to have the miter at exactly 90 degrees or else the point stock will not bottom out, therefore leaving a sizeable glue line between the tip of the actual point & where the veneers begin. Often, the actual point doesn't even look sharp because of it. Maybe it's only in my own mind, but logic tells me that an overlapping weave joint will be stronger than a two surface butted joint. And given that the overlapping veneers are glued flat to the point stock rather than mitered up & then attached to the point stock, I feel this adds some strength simply due to absolute true surface to surface adhesion. Again, the only way to acheive the absolute surface bond is if the miter is an absolute 90 degrees, which I very seldom see. The telling sign is the tip of the actual point, not the tip of the veneered point.
A perfect miter looks the best and is the most professional.
How does it make it more "professional"? I think "traditional" is the better choice.
Mike, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and pool players are fickle about cues. What their buddies think is usually what they think also.
High end collectors prefer the mitered points so it stands to reason that all expensive cues must have them ... or suffer the ridicule.
I am glad to see someone of your stature openly stating what he feels correct even if it goes against popular opinion.
I have all but stopped doing that as I have learned it accomplishes very little and my time is much better spent in my cue shop.
Regardless of how you make those points, Mike, I think your work is top notch rating right up there with the best of the best.
I would be proud to own a Mike Web original cue.
High end collectors prefer the mitered points so it stands to reason that all expensive cues must have them ... or suffer the ridicule.
I am glad to see someone of your stature openly stating what he feels correct even if it goes against popular opinion.
I have all but stopped doing that as I have learned it accomplishes very little and my time is much better spent in my cue shop.
Regardless of how you make those points, Mike, I think your work is top notch rating right up there with the best of the best.
I would be proud to own a Mike Web original cue.
Thank you to everyone who has replied so far, So far, Good thread but it's lacking why some people feel the way they do.
Hi,
Gluing veneers around the block is an easier and safer procedure for doing point veneers. If you square up your points perfect, use the right glue, clamp tightly with even pressure and cut off the extra veneer stock on a router table your can get some great results concerning "the line issue".
Mitered veneers are the what collectors are looking for so due to that fact only, I believe that the mitered cues are the way to go. If you make a perfect cue of a suitable quality for cue collectors, why would you not do the mitered thing.
Rick G
Thank you very much, Part of point to this whole thread is:
I like doing both methods equally but: And this is a big butt, Do customers buy cues because a Cue maker does a certain method or Because they believe in the methods, or the philosophy that the Cue maker believes in. And here's the ripple in the water on the stacked side!
I am a huge fan of Southwest cues. I have never owned one, But have worked on them and I have talked to Laurie Franklin, She is the Queen of the Cue maker world. Part of the reason for this is, She believes in what she does.
Good answer Rick, I didn't start this thread with collectors in mind, No disrespect intended. Whether the person I am talking to has 1 dollar or 10 million, I treat them both with equal respect. This is about us.
Like you, Mike, I do both methods. Now, I'm not making collectible cues but I do prefer the mitered veneers. Only for tradition. Lately, I've been doing stack veneers because it is a better use of my time with less waste. I get the quality I am after every time.
Now, I am not doing stacked because it is faster. Its quite the contrary. It just works better in the overall scheme of how I work.
Now, I am not doing stacked because it is faster. Its quite the contrary. It just works better in the overall scheme of how I work.
Mike, hope you don't mind some observations and questions from a non- cuemaker.
1st- as a pool player I'm concerned with "hit". Does either method affect that?
2nd- like 99.9% of cue purchasers it's the "look" that creates my first impression of a cue. It sounds like either method if done wrong just doesn't look that good. As to glue lines....have any cue makers experimented with dyeing(sp?) the glue?
3rd- again like 99.9% of purchasers/players I haven't got a clue as to what goes in to making a cue with either method but I can read a "price" tag. So does one method end up costing significantly more? If so is there any benifit relating to hit or looks?
1st- as a pool player I'm concerned with "hit". Does either method affect that?
2nd- like 99.9% of cue purchasers it's the "look" that creates my first impression of a cue. It sounds like either method if done wrong just doesn't look that good. As to glue lines....have any cue makers experimented with dyeing(sp?) the glue?
3rd- again like 99.9% of purchasers/players I haven't got a clue as to what goes in to making a cue with either method but I can read a "price" tag. So does one method end up costing significantly more? If so is there any benifit relating to hit or looks?
Great answer, Thank you Ryan.
Thank you, Excellent questions. Good thing I'm cutting shafts today, It's like watching paint dry. LOL
Depending on the Cue maker the answer may vary but based on myself,
1-If I miter the veneers, I take the sheets and apply epoxy to them, then put them in a press to apply pressure while they dry, Then I cut the sheets into strips and miter them, I use wood glue for the actual miter, I don't like using wood glue for the sheets cause I don't like the sheets to curl, The epoxy soaks deep into the sheets, So it actually acts as a sealer to and I don't have to worry about dust penetrating them when I sand the cue,
2- If I overlap, I use wood glue because it gives me less of a glue line. I have built my own set up the applies equal pressure across the block so I have no fear that the glue is drying inconsistently. I also am lucky enough that I have dialed my jointer in very well, so after I flush cut the edge, I can run each side of the square thru my jointer, This works very well for me but the jointer doesn't work well for others, it is a very dangerous machine and will get you if you get distracted, No one is allowed here when I'm working points, jointers, routers. When sanding, I have to be more conscious of the dust because wood glue does not protect the colors like epoxy does.
3- Both wood glue and epoxy are great, I choose to use both, just depends on what and why I am doing something.
4-Pricing is to much of a can of worms, I don't want to bring that into this thread, Hope you understand this.
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to me mitered is to easy...well the way I do it.... I don't know how others do it..
stacked takes more time.... so price wise it should be cheaper .....to me, going mitered. stacked takes more time veneer per veneer.... piece by piece making sure everything is put on flushed up against everything .....'
mitered ...well you glue all the colors and then cut the angle put together and install, for me on the point then on the forearm.
stacked.... one piece wait till glue is done then piece next wait till glue is done then so on and so on....but that's me.. you have to make sure that everything is flush with everything..... then install point....
like I said that's how I do things...i dont know how anyone else does them.
Personally...I do not like mitered I'd rather recut a piece of wood till I get the thickness I want, then dye then install point .....and boom no lines what so ever....... so unless I recut I stack no mitering here...I could if customers want it.
hit wise, I think if its recut points for veneers.... could affect it, cause I work with natural color woods.... I dye them ...sometimes not all the time....so each wood produces something else....
ex...red-rose wood , black -ebony, brown-lace wood, green-sumac
put together produces someting different.
but then putting a bunch of pear or poplar colored veneers also changes hit.... so to my opinion yes it changes hits.
I know houses and trim are not cues, but how would we feel if a carpenter installed baseboard in the corners overlapping instead of mitered? Brick mold around a door frame butted instead of mitered? Crown molding?
I think there is a perception, right or wrong, that mitered joints and mitered seams are more professional and have a more finished look than the overlapped/butted look.
Again, I'm not saying the two are equal...I'm just saying...
Kelly
I think there is a perception, right or wrong, that mitered joints and mitered seams are more professional and have a more finished look than the overlapped/butted look.
Again, I'm not saying the two are equal...I'm just saying...
Kelly
my comment wasn't about the stack or mitered I am talking about the recut wood for veneers so no line... can show a pic if needed
Re-cuts are a whole different topic all together.
That is true to some degree but along that train of thought, If they put Masonite on a counter top, Most don't miter the front side to the top, It's aligned flush. But the back splash guard piece is bent to form the angle, not overlapped or mitered. Standard moulding is not .018 to .035 thick.
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i recut till it's the thickness of veneers
RBC
Deceased
Earlier it was mentioned that Bushka and Szamboti both mitered theirs so that's why the collectors tend to like mitered over stacked. I thought that was odd because I seemed to remember Spain doing stacked. I know that Bushka never built any points, and only used blanks from Spain and Szamboti. I also know that he made way more cues from Spain blanks, so most of his pointed cues should have been stacked.
Am I wrong? Maybe I should call Dick Abbott and ask him. If anyone should know about Bushka's and Szamboti's he would!
Personally, I have built both but it was a long time ago. To me, mitered would be better for a production environment. It would take more setup, but once you have it down it takes less time to build repeatably. Stacked, on the other hand, would be easier to get good clean joints but would take longer to build for each cue.
All in all I find it amazing that cue buyers pay that much attention to it. I'm with Ryan about not being able to tell the difference in the hit, and done right they both look virtually identical.
Oh, well. I will talk to Mr. Abbott. I need to bug him anyway!
Am I wrong? Maybe I should call Dick Abbott and ask him. If anyone should know about Bushka's and Szamboti's he would!
Personally, I have built both but it was a long time ago. To me, mitered would be better for a production environment. It would take more setup, but once you have it down it takes less time to build repeatably. Stacked, on the other hand, would be easier to get good clean joints but would take longer to build for each cue.
All in all I find it amazing that cue buyers pay that much attention to it. I'm with Ryan about not being able to tell the difference in the hit, and done right they both look virtually identical.
Oh, well. I will talk to Mr. Abbott. I need to bug him anyway!
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