BHE vs FHE

[BRKNRUN]

In reality it’s more of a natural FHE. Please review the video and let me know if I am interpreting it correctly.

I think (even though he does not call it FHE)......that is exactly what he is using......I have been using exactly that method of applying english since switching to a CF (Rhino) shaft....It is pretty much exactly like he describes....no thought necessary........always start from the base (no english) shot and apply the english with your bridge hand as you get down on the shot.....very much to me is FHE......(IMO)

As a matter of fact...(thanks for sharing that video)... I was excited to watch that video as he pretty much just confirmed I am on the right track with my own PSR....I used a slightly different reason for getting there but since my return to pool I have been working on coming into the shot at a slight body angle (head square over the shot line).....I think the natural stroke being across your body it lends itself to a natural repeatable set up and stroke......vs having to turn everything (including the cue) to get it on the shot line.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The shooter comes down on the shot with the cue already lined up at an angle to the CB contact point so the stroke is “normal”, not modified with the back hand pivoted to either side to effect a side spin contact point on the CB. The stroke can be executed as if it’s a straight-in shot with no side spin.

In reality it’s more of a natural FHE. Please review the video and let me know if I am interpreting it correctly.

Using the same cue:
- If you hit the CB on the same spot for side spin, your cue must be angled the same amount to get the same result.
- If you angle the cue different amounts to hit the same CB spot, the CB will go in different directions.

Also, any side spin shot can be stroked straight if you angle the cue first. Angling it during the stroke ("swooping") is a bad idea.

pj
chgo

 

[maha]

you learn to do it after a time. just like walking and having to step over a crack in the sidewalk. you dont think about it and change anything.

parallel english will cause problems for most all players if hitting a shot hard with some distance no matter what shaft or tip you have..

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Using the same cue:
- If you hit the CB on the same spot for side spin, your cue must be angled the same amount to get the same result.
- If you angle the cue different amounts to hit the same CB spot, the CB will go in different directions.

Doesn't that depend on the starting point of where the tip of the cue is?

Also, any side spin shot can be stroked straight if you angle the cue first. Angling it during the stroke ("swooping") is a bad idea.

pj
chgo

"Swooping" can be a bad idea but what is your definition of "swooping"? What controls the "swoop stroke"? The hand?
The stroking forearm? The elbow and upper arm of the stroking arm?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Using the same cue:
- If you hit the CB on the same spot for side spin, your cue must be angled the same amount to get the same result.

Doesn't that depend on the starting point of where the tip of the cue is?

Maybe a clearer way to say it is: "your cue tip must be moving in the same direction to get the same result".

Also, any side spin shot can be stroked straight if you angle the cue first. Angling it during the stroke ("swooping") is a bad idea.

"Swooping" can be a bad idea but what is your definition of "swooping"? What controls the "swoop stroke"? The hand?
The stroking forearm? The elbow and upper arm of the stroking arm?

Any of those is a bad idea compared to a straight stroke that delivers the tip to the same spot moving in the same direction.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Maybe a clearer way to say it is: "your cue tip must be moving in the same direction to get the same result".

The cue tip is more than likely going to strike the CB in the same spot but the shaft/ferrule angle of strike is going to be different.

Any of those is a bad idea compared to a straight stroke that delivers the tip to the same spot moving in the same direction.

pj
chgo

A parallel shift of 1/2 to 1 full tip from CCB vs. a pivot or angled shaft of the same amount isn't going to have the same CB path and reaction without calculations and adjustments for deflection.

Btw, what makes you think a dynamic way of angling the cue is only produced with a "swoop"? Which to me means the hand, forearm, and upper arm all change direction from the setup to the actual stroke.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

"swoop"? Which to me means the hand, forearm, and upper arm all change direction from the setup to the actual stroke.

To me it means the tip moves in a direction not parallel with the cue, however you make it do that.

It introduces variables and likely inaccuracies with no upside - the same intended result can be more easily/predictably produced with a straight stroke.

I don’t know of anything useful that can only be accomplished with a non-straight stroke - if you do I’m all ears.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

To me it means the tip moves in a direction not parallel with the cue, however you make it do that.

The tip has to move in the direction of the shaft/ferrule. It's attached.

It introduces variables and likely inaccuracies with no upside - the same intended result can be more easily/predictably produced with a straight stroke.

A straight stroke can also be an angled stroke going straight along that line.

I don’t know of anything useful that can only be accomplished with a non-straight stroke - if you do I’m all ears.

pj
chgo

How do you interpret the L'il Chris video I posted as far as a straight stroke or not? He has a straight stroke with an "angled" cue to an offset from CCB. You play with a straight stroke with a straight cue from an offset of CCB and COB.
Your way has more deflection (squirt) that needs to be factored in and accounted for.
Old timer BHE used the stroking hand and wrist to curl under which angled the tip and shaft of the cue for English and cut angle during the forward stroke. The original aim line was an undercut, but the dynamic curling motion changed the shaft line as well as the spin for correct contact point to contact point as well as getting the spin at the same time. Confusing? Getting on the table and doing it is the only way.
If anyone else has trouble understanding it, watch the video over and over and get on the table. It's not a mind game with the imagination, it's an eyes and physical action.

 

[The_JV]

If you simply pivot, maybe. Depends how hard you need to stroke. If you need some precise oomph you can do as you do.

Not sure why power is a variable. My entire upper body pivots (only in random / uncommon circumstances). My mechanics are not effected by this pivot. The amount of power I use for the given shot moot.

What I do is set the pivoted stick line and get in place over the stick.

So you determine how much the cue will pivot for desired english and then get down on the shot straight..? I'm lost...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

"swoop"? Which to me means the hand, forearm, and upper arm all change direction from the setup to the actual stroke.

To me it means the tip moves in a direction not parallel with the cue, however you make it do that.

The tip has to move in the direction of the shaft/ferrule. It's attached.

Yes, but none of those must move parallel with the stick - for instance, when pivoting the stick during the stroke. That's what I (and others) call "swooping".

A straight stroke can also be an angled stroke going straight along that line.

Which has always been my argument against "swooping" - there's no need to angle the cue during the stroke.

Your way has more deflection (squirt) that needs to be factored in and accounted for.

If you mean a straight stroke produces more squirt than a "dynamically angled" (swooped) stroke, I believe that's incorrect. Got a reason it would be so?

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yes, but none of those must move parallel with the stick - for instance, when pivoting the stick during the stroke. That's what I (and others) call "swooping".

Is there an official definition for "swooping"? To me, swooping is a big move using the hands, forearms, upper arms, and maybe a little shoulders. It's inappropriate. Dynamically, it's done with the stroking wrist. A little "curling under" that "SLIGHTLY" alters the angle of the shaft and tip back to the CB. A "SWOOP" to me is a huge eagle high in the sky "SWOOPING" down to snatch its prey on the ground.

Which has always been my argument against "swooping" - there's no need to angle the cue during the stroke.

Need or no need, it's just another way of playing the game. It's NOT a SWOOP. It's like a top pro player such as Efren starting at CCB, high, or low and trying to hide what he's doing so the opponent can't tell and he AIR "PIVOTS" to his desired CB contact spot.

If you mean a straight stroke produces more squirt than a "dynamically angled" (swooped) stroke, I believe that's incorrect.

It's not a swoop.

Got a reason it would be so?

pj
chgo

Forget the swoop and doing it during the stroke. WATCH THE VIDEO! WATCH THE VIDEO! WATCH THE VIDEO! WATCH THE VIDEO! Do it PRE-STROKE like L'il Chris is doing it with a backhand angle (pivot) away from CCB. It IS the BETTER way to do it instead of dynamically for non-pro players. Otherwise, I can't help you or go any further. Believe what you want to believe and think what you want to think.

 

[DeadStick]

Is there an official definition for "swooping"? To me, swooping is a big move using the hands, forearms, upper arms, and maybe a little shoulders. It's inappropriate. Dynamically, it's done with the stroking wrist. A little "curling under" that "SLIGHTLY" alters the angle of the shaft and tip back to the CB. A "SWOOP" to me is a huge eagle high in the sky "SWOOPING" down to snatch its prey on the ground.

Need or no need, it's just another way of playing the game. It's NOT a SWOOP.

It's not a swoop.

Forget the swoop and doing it during the stroke. WATCH THE VIDEO! WATCH THE VIDEO! WATCH THE VIDEO! WATCH THE VIDEO! Do it PRE-STROKE like L'il Chris is doing it with a backhand angle (pivot) away from CCB. It IS the BETTER way to do it instead of dynamically for non-pro players. Otherwise, I can't help you or go any further. Believe what you want to believe and think what you want to think.

I think you and PJ are on the same side of this argument.

ALERT THE MEDIA!!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think you and PJ are on the same side of this argument.

ALERT THE MEDIA!!

I think you are in a state of wishful thinking or dreaming.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It's NOT a SWOOP.

Oh, sorry... didn't realize I was talking to Mr. Webster.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

These videos don't show how the wrist is used specifically for BHE but they do show how different positions are used by various players:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Oh, sorry... didn't realize I was talking to Mr. Webster.

pj
chgo

You weren't because you consider yourself to be Mr. Webster.

 

[maha]

this is a good thread please dont derail for personal attacks no matter who started it.

 

[straightline]

Not sure why power is a variable. My entire upper body pivots (only in random / uncommon circumstances). My mechanics are not effected by this pivot. The amount of power I use for the given shot moot.

So you determine how much the cue will pivot for desired english and then get down on the shot straight..? I'm lost...

Ah. I'm such a compelling poster you probably missed that I air aim and shoot as part of my pre shot. This gives multiple sequence options as to arriving at the act of shooting as well as the option to finalize the stroking line before getting down. It's an active as opposed to a passive in place aim.

For general BHE with touchy feely stuff, simply pivoting and shooting works. This is probably due to the short stroke travel. If however, my stroke feels awkward, I can reposition/realign my stance around the stick. More forceful shooting with english obviously requires different offsets and a different sequence of preparation.

 

[The_JV]

Ah. I'm such a compelling poster you probably missed that I air aim and shoot as part of my pre shot. This gives multiple sequence options as to arriving at the act of shooting as well as the option to finalize the stroking line before getting down. It's an active as opposed to a passive in place aim.

Ah... gotcha

For general BHE with touchy feely stuff, simply pivoting and shooting works. This is probably due to the short stroke travel. If however, my stroke feels awkward, I can reposition/realign my stance around the stick. More forceful shooting with english obviously requires different offsets and a different sequence of preparation.

The highlighted is a good sign to pick up on and impressive for someone that doesn't play It's also the issue with BHE imo. You're (anyone's) stroke should be straight as an arrow. Your mechanics locked in to your upper body, and only real concern being the path the CB will take. BHE skews your mechanics. Maybe a little, maybe a lot. Gets to a point where a player should reset and readdress the approach.

I'm no different when I apply my upper body pivot. There's a tiny limit to how far I'm willing to pivot in an effort to keep my balance remaining solid. Doubt anyone would even notice if they were watching me. Once I start to threaten my limit. I'll stand and readdress.

 

[straightline]

Ah... gotcha

The highlighted is a good sign to pick up on and impressive for someone that doesn't play It's also the issue with BHE imo. You're (anyone's) stroke should be straight as an arrow. Your mechanics locked in to your upper body, and only real concern being the path the CB will take. BHE skews your mechanics. Maybe a little, maybe a lot. Gets to a point where a player should reset and readdress the approach.

I'm no different when I apply my upper body pivot. There's a tiny limit to how far I'm willing to pivot in an effort to keep my balance remaining solid. Doubt anyone would even notice if they were watching me. Once I start to threaten my limit. I'll stand and readdress.

I've long since learned to make sure I'm in alignment with the shot. 'Course I will get lazy and start to freewheel. Won't be but a few shots after that things go south. Good thing there's so much video of the big boys to study and emulate.