BIH Rules question, What's the call?

ajohnson13

ajohnson13

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This subject came up in conversation last night between several of the players in a tournament. The question was brought to me, as a "what would you call" after the fact, however I was not present to witness the actual events.

Game:

8-ball modified BCA rules

Situation:

Player A has BIH after a foul by Player B. Player A places the CB on the felt near the side pocket. Player A then proceeds to check his aim at the OB with his cue holding it with one hand. He was not in a shooting position. He slips and accidentally knocks the CB into the side pocket with the shaft of his cue. Player B calls a foul, and Player A insists it was not a foul, and he should still have BIH. The TD ruled in favor of Player A.

What is the call and why?
 
BCA Rulebook -

1.5 Cue Ball in Hand
When the cue ball is in hand, the shooter may place the cue ball anywhere on the playing surface (see 8.1 Parts of the Table) and may continue to move the cue ball until he executes a shot. (See definition 8.2 Shot.) Players may use any part of the cue stick to move the cue ball, including the tip, but not with a forward stroke motion. In some games and for most break shots, placement of the cue ball may be restricted to the area behind the head string depending on the rules of the game, and then 6.10 Bad Cue Ball Placement and 6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String may apply.
When the shooter has the cue ball in hand behind the head string and all the legal object balls are behind the head string, he may request the legal object ball nearest the head string to be spotted. If two or more balls are equal distance from the head string, the shooter may designate which of the equidistant balls is to be spotted. An object ball that rests exactly on the head string is playable.
Click to expand...

If he wasn't in the act of shooting, it's not a foul.
 
The intent of rule 1.38 'Ball in Hand' is that a) 'after a foul' and b) 'until a legal stroke' the cue ball remains 'ball in hand'*. Causing the cue ball to drop into the side pocket from contact with the shaft/butt of the cue cannot be considered a legal stroke; in addition no other balls were disturbed, thus, no foul.

But an interesting question.

(*) with side caveats about being careful on picking up the BIH and placing it back down
 
This question has come up before. And the same answers have been provide.
It is not a foul. BIH is BIH until the shooter takes a shot.
 
I concur with all these great pool minds. It is not a foul.

I've actually seen players grab the CB from the scratch hole and roll it down the table to where they are going to take BIH, and seen them roll it right into the corner pocket. This is not a foul, but just makes them look stupid. :)

Good Ruling in the heat of it all!
 
I just wanted to add, as a player, you still have to protect yourself. This is a fine example of sloppy play and the shooter is leaving himself vulnerable to a bad ruling. Yes, it's not a foul but that doesn't mean a foul won't be called. In the APA, referees are often not trained and reading directly from the rulebook on most obscure rulings. In this scenario, a foul will likely be called. Protect yourself and be more mindful of these things when at the table.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
.
It is not a foul. BIH is BIH until the shooter takes a shot.
Click to expand...

I saw a match on ESPN recently, I believe Rodney Morris was the shooter.

He had ball in hand, but when he picked up the CB, it slipped from his hand and crashed into another ball.

Ref called foul, opponent got BIH, and Rodney went on to lose that match.

I've also seen Alison Fisher give up BIH for adjusting the CB position with her shaft....(But that was under those funky IPT rules)
 
Entirely different situation covered under the rule that when you have BIH you cannot touch another ball on the table.

the420trooper said:
I saw a match on ESPN recently, I believe Rodney Morris was the shooter.

He had ball in hand, but when he picked up the CB, it slipped from his hand and crashed into another ball.

Ref called foul, opponent got BIH, and Rodney went on to lose that match.

I've also seen Alison Fisher give up BIH for adjusting the CB position with her shaft....(But that was under those funky IPT rules)
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the replies, these types of posts will definately assist me in becoming the best TD i can be.
 
the420trooper said:
I saw a match on ESPN recently, I believe Rodney Morris was the shooter.

He had ball in hand, but when he picked up the CB, it slipped from his hand and crashed into another ball.

Ref called foul, opponent got BIH, and Rodney went on to lose that match.

I've also seen Alison Fisher give up BIH for adjusting the CB position with her shaft....(But that was under those funky IPT rules)
Click to expand...

That's because she moved it forward with the tip of her cue, not the shaft. Since she had forward motion and it was caused by the tip of her cue making contact with the ball it was considered a legal hit, but since she didn't hit an OB and a rail....it was a foul. Just thought I'd clarify before people start asking questions.
 
Johnnyz86 said:
what if you miscue and don't disturb any balls? that's not a legal stroke right?
Click to expand...

{BCA}If the tip of the cue hits the cue ball with forward motion, its a legal stroke.

Thus it is exceedingly dangerous to manipulate the position of the BIH with the tip end of a cue stick even if you only use the ferrule.
 
MitchAlsup said:
{BCA}If the tip of the cue hits the cue ball with forward motion, its a legal stroke.

Thus it is exceedingly dangerous to manipulate the position of the BIH with the tip end of a cue stick even if you only use the ferrule.
Click to expand...

It's really simple - if, as a player, you think you can argue your way out of a miscue when you have BIH, you should give up pool altogether and go to Law School. There are firms all over the country looking to pay top dollar for such skills. For the rest of us, be ready to have a foul called.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
It's really simple - if, as a player, you think you can argue your way out of a miscue when you have BIH, you should give up pool altogether and go to Law School. There are firms all over the country looking to pay top dollar for such skills. For the rest of us, be ready to have a foul called.
Click to expand...

That may be the best response I've read on here in years!

Brian in VA
 
MilwShooter said:
That's because she moved it forward with the tip of her cue, not the shaft. Since she had forward motion and it was caused by the tip of her cue making contact with the ball it was considered a legal hit, but since she didn't hit an OB and a rail....it was a foul. Just thought I'd clarify before people start asking questions.
Click to expand...

When the IPT first started, they considered "Ball In Hand" to be exactly that -- the ball must be moved with the hand, and only the hand. No part of the shaft could touch the cueball (it was a foul). So many players including Allison were called for fouls, even when just positioning the cueball on the breakshot, that they decided to fix that rule and stop calling that foul in subsequent tournaments.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top